rant on women's clothing

[harcosparky]

I'm sorry but I always expect to be treated as a lady regardless of whether I'm in a clown suit for a fancy dress party, an evening dress, an office suit, jogging sweats, jeans or a mini-skirt. I act like a lady so I expect to be treated as one.

But this lead to the question ... can dress be considered behavior, and when is a certain behavior appropriate?

Would a lady wear a mini-skirt to a " black tie affair ' ?

Would a lady wear jogging sweats to a " dinner party "?

Would you wear an evening dress to the " athletic club " to work out in?

A lady might wear a micro-bikini on the beach, but would she wear it to a at her wedding?

Like was said earlier ... " sometimes it is fun to wear risque clothing ", and I agree ... but there is a time and place for it.

Bottom line I guess would be ...

" It's not what you wear, but where you wear it that makes it inappropriate. "

 

[devilot]

I think it is a parents responsibility to set standards of behavior, and to take actions necessary to enforce those standards.

Well, I'm glad you and your wife are engaged in what your children are up to. But let it be fully understood, there are always loopholes. Always.

And clamp down too tough now, and things will change once they're given more room. It's inevitable and I've seen it many a time.

I used to hide things from my mother 'til I goofed and she found some of my not-so-parent-friendly clothing. She then decided, it'd be wiser to know what's going on and to not limit every little item. It was good to compromise. She felt I had a skirt w/ too high of slits (one on either side, and yes, they were too high) so we compromised and she sewed the slits down lower. I'm just expressing my personal experiences and what I've known and seen in others. It's beneficial not to "outlaw" a ton of things, but to keep an open path of communication and to work together on an acceptable outcome.

I dont think anyone said wearing skimpy clothing is an invitation for criminal behavior ... at least it was not my intent to imply that.

It's implied. As is classic tones of victim blame in this quote:

Criminal assaults can and will happen regardless of dress, I'd say 'situation' is more a determing factor in criminal assaults than clothing, but that is a topic for a separate discussion. ( How Not To Become A Crime Victim )

There is not much anyone can do to "not become a victim." The questions should instead focus on the attackers, the assaulters, the abusers. The implication in the statement being that if the "victim" is in a "bad place" or wearing certain clothing, they're somehow to blame for being victimized.

You cannot deny/argue that what you wear is what people see, and we all make initial judgements based on what we see.

If you dress like a lady, you can be expected to be treated like a lady.
If you dress like a clown, expect people to respond to you as a clown.

Right, so, wearing sweats means that someone can treat me like dirt because I'm not wearing designer clothing? I think that that says more about the person "judging" than the person being judged.

I have to admit that it frustrates me that men are frequently portrayed as these horny animals who stare at any girl whose cleavage is showing.

Sorry, maybe you've grown up as a woman and know what sorts of advances many of us have been subjected to?

I have been with a man, in a shoe store, trying on a pair of shoes... and was obviously "with the man," and had other men come up and make verbal advances. But surely, I must have invited those offers.

Or what about, AS's example? And countless other women? I'm sure plenty of us have been fully and respectfully clothed and still been hit w/ lewd comments, gestures, calls... But no, surely we were emitting ESP brainwaves and asking for it.

Do all men do this? No. But have I heard more stories of women experiencing these sorts of incidents over men saying they've been made uncomfortable by women and/or other men? You betcha.

I'm sorry but I always expect to be treated as a lady regardless of whether I'm in a clown suit for a fancy dress party, an evening dress, an office suit, jogging sweats, jeans or a mini-skirt. I act like a lady so I expect to be treated as one.

 

[Applespider]

But this lead to the question ... can dress be considered behavior, and when is a certain behavior appropriate?....

" It's not what you wear, but where you wear it that makes it inappropriate. "

Of course, there are certain times where you're going to dress in certain ways - although I'll confess now to having worn an evening dress at my gym since I was going out from a work out. I think that's basic common sense.

But behaviour should be good regardless. I wouldn't swear or scream, make out, touch a guy's ass in public or I wouldn't get so drunk I made myself insensible or a public nuisance regardless of what I was wearing.

Equally, I'd like to think that I could go about my business, without being overtly ogled (glancing and even a quick whistle I can cope with), groped or be hassled verbally regardless of what I was wearing.

 

[jaydub]

Sorry, maybe you've grown up as a woman and know what sorts of advances many of us have been subjected to?

I have been with a man, in a shoe store, trying on a pair of shoes... and was obviously "with the man," and had other men come up and make verbal advances. But surely, I must have invited those offers.

Ah of course, the ol' "You're not a woman, so you can't fathom what it's like" argument.

I live in Las Vegas - home of lewdness and verbal advances galore. I've been out in plenty of situations where there ARE advances and comments which are inappropriate. Nobody is questioning or doubting these occurrences. But placing the blame squarely on males is unreasonable.

 

[devilot]

But placing the blame squarely on males is unreasonable.

I never said that women wouldn't receive attention if dressed a certain way. That's undeniable.

But receiving unwanted attention if dressed "normally?" And regardless of how a woman or man is dressed, you shouldn't have to put up with groping, gestures, loud calls, etc.

That'd be akin to the first few iPhones in the public-- sure, it's great, and looks tantalizing to many, doesn't give anyone an excuse to do more than look. Anymore than looking, and that person is the one out of line.

How sad is it that this analogy works to compare a woman and the way she dresses to a gadget?

 

[XIII]

Check what they wear underneath? I guess when the wife does all the laundry, she would see what they wear ... don't ya think?

Yes we have checked their backpacks/bags, both before they leave for school and when they come home. My son was known to sneak prohibited electronics into school. ( iPod / Gameboy / Cell Phone ) Because of these random checks he now leaves those items on his desk in plain view.

Actually we do from time to time, stop in the schools unannounced to see what is going on and to check lockers.

Really? How old are your kids?

Do you not give them any kind of responsibility? Checking bags, lockers and random visits to the school.. I guess I could understand at a certain age, but it sounds like your kids must be teenagers, 15+?

 

[harcosparky]

There is not much anyone can do to "not become a victim." The questions should instead focus on the attackers, the assaulters, the abusers. The implication in the statement being that if the "victim" is in a "bad place" or wearing certain clothing, they're somehow to blame for being victimized.

I disagree, there is so much one can do to avoid becoming a victim.

Would you use an outside ATM in an area with a high record of robberies? ( Note: after too many robberies the bank moved this ATM inside and you needed a bank card to get access - robberies decreased )

Would you use an underground tunnel where it is known for people being attacked? ( Note: after too many attacks the US Border Patrol closed this tunnel finally. )

Would you drive through downtown Baltimore City at midnight, with your car windows down and doors unlocked?

It used to be that when a store closed an employee would take the days receipts to the bank at the end of the night and drop them off in a Night Deposit Box. There were to many robberies. Are you saying they could do nothing to prevent becoming a victim? Well many stores realized it would be safer to secure the receipts in a locked vault inside the store until the next day, and have an employee take the bag containing the receipts INSIDE the bank during business hours. RESULT: Robberies reduced

Understand this, I am not saying you should NOT be able to safely do these things, I am asking WOULD YOU?

But see once again, you want to spin it to " blaming the victim ". It's not my intent to blame a victim for becoming a victim, but it is my intent to teach my children behaviors that will diminish the risk of becoming a victim.

I was trying to keep this on the topic of " Appropriate Dress " but you feel compelled to throw " Criminal Activity " in the mix as if the two were somehow related.

 

[Mord]

I find it difficult to find practical clothes that don't look horrifically drab, it's not like I'm prudish or anything I just dislike how people treat me when I'm dressed overly attractively, it's fun every now and again with the right company but I wouldn't do it casually.

For a while I did dress in a way that turned heads though wasn't too revealing, I'm tempted to pick the habit up again fort the summer but it's difficult to find suitable clothes.

For now it's cold as hell so I wear a full length fleece pixie coat ^_^

 

[Lau]

Ah of course, the ol' "You're not a woman, so you can't fathom what it's like" argument.

I don't think that's true, but I do think it's hard to know how tiring and repetitive it is to be getting that kind of leering attention day after day unless you've seen it.

The reason I say this is that I'm a woman, and being a bit of a scruffy ****er I don't get this kind of attention, and didn't realise what it was like until I ended up walking a lot with a friend of mine who is very attractive. She doesn't dress revealingly, or act in any way to encourage it, she just seems to be the kind of person who gets attention like that. And literally 80% of guys either do a huge double take, shout something, make comments and so on.

I'm not saying it's all guys, but blimey, it doesn't half get annoying and I hadn't realised how much it happened myself.

 

[MacNut]

Not to offend anyone but do some girls try to go after the attention. Do they want the guys to hoot and holler. Not to say that all girls want this but I bet there are a few that like to be looked at.

I remember someone saying that girls do not dress up for guys they do it to get other girls jealous. Is there any truth to that.

 

[furcalchick]

Not to offend anyone but do some girls try to go after the attention. Do they want the guys to hoot and holler. Not to say that all girls want this but I bet there are a few that like to be looked at.

I remember someone saying that girls do not dress up for guys they do it to get other girls jealous. Is there any truth to that.

yes, this is true. i was never that type of girl, but i knew people that were. many of those girls were big into celebrity nonsense and the such.

 

[3nm]

they get my attention but i tend to distance myself from anyone who wears skimpy clothes. no offense, but hanging out with an attention-deprived mary jane rottencrotch pretty much means drama and high maintenance. =P

 

[Keebler]

Nothing like seeing a pleasantly plump lady wearing spandex.

Looks like bread dough rising over the sides of bowl.

omg. bad image. i just puked

 

[Blue Velvet]

Ah of course, the ol' "You're not a woman, so you can't fathom what it's like" argument.

And it's a good one... you obviously don't really know or have stopped to consider what it's like, and to paraphrase Lau; you could be dressed in a sack and still be harassed by some drooling cretin in the street with a half of the vocabulary of you and a quarter of your income. So, until you have walked in those shoes, subject to the occasional sheer mind-numbing inanity of it all, then it really is best to take women's words for it.

Anyway, interesting to see a women's clothing thread getting all these views on a tech forum. Didn't know there were so many cross-dressers here.

 

[jaydub]

I never said that women wouldn't receive attention if dressed a certain way. That's undeniable.

But receiving unwanted attention if dressed "normally?" And regardless of how a woman or man is dressed, you shouldn't have to put up with groping, gestures, loud calls, etc.

That'd be akin to the first few iPhones in the public-- sure, it's great, and looks tantalizing to many, doesn't give anyone an excuse to do more than look. Anymore than looking, and that person is the one out of line.

How sad is it that this analogy works to compare a woman and the way she dresses to a gadget?

Well in that regard, I do agree that some classless men out there will undoubtedly comment and give unwanted attention regardless of the attire a woman is (or isn't) wearing. I'm not sure where it should be attributed, but it seems like there is an inherent lack of respect from both sides for the opposite gender.

You're definitely right, women (or men, for that matter) should not have to put up with unwanted advances, but it's hard to say how that can be fixed.

 

[floriflee]

I agree with previous posters, check out Gap, Banana, J Crew, Ann Taylor for less revealing styles.

Don't forget Talbots. I've also found modest clothing at Kohl's and H&M (in the misses section), and when I can't I usually just end up layering--a tank top or shirt under a more low-cut one. There are a few online places you can find stuff like ModBe Clothing, that has some basic stuff to help accent your wardrobe. It's a bit pricey, but worth it since the shirts do cover as they tend to be longer.

As far as trousers go, I usually find some I like and just expect to wear them for a few seasons before they come back in stores again.

 

[harcosparky]

Really? How old are your kids?

Do you not give them any kind of responsibility? Checking bags, lockers and random visits to the school.. I guess I could understand at a certain age, but it sounds like your kids must be teenagers, 15+?

Actually 2 are under 15, 2 are over 15 ... the two over have a little more freedom as they have proven themselves to be somewhat responsible. They as a result of proving themselves responsible have earned a little more liberty.

Checking bags, lockers, and random visits to school are what we did prior to them being 15 or so .... DEPENDING on their behaviors. Misbehaving earns closer scrutiny. Basically we just enforced school rules, perhaps a little closer than most parents, but we never once got a call that our children were caught with anything they were not supposed to have.

Think of it this way ..... if I check their bags and/or lockers and find something there that shouldn't be there, I have done them a big favor.

How is that a favor?

Well *I* found the item, so they have to answer to *ME*.

Understand that the schools here have the right to search bags and lockers at will, and should they *school* find the items, the child has to now deal with the *school* AND *ME*. If the schools find a banned item, on first offense they return the item to the Parent, which means *I* have to make a trip to school and be lectured!

Some of what we look for is banned by the schools at grade levels K-8, once they enter the 9-12 grades the schools grant them more freedoms as well.

Again here, we are talking about certain behaviors and knowing when they are appropriate or not.

Funny how conversations can take odd twists and turns, especially this one!

Back to the original line ... " rant on womans clothing ".

My 16 year old daughter thinks low rise jeans are " trashy ", that's the word she used.

 

[GfPQqmcRKUvP]

I'll try to give you a younger perspective on this and try to be civil at the same time.

Yes we have checked their backpacks/bags, both before they leave for school and when they come home.

I have to be honest (as opposed to my usual default of being a pathological liar), this is a bit weird. Do they not mind that at all? Kids or teenagers sometimes want privacy or their own space even if they have nothing to hide.

My son was known to sneak prohibited electronics into school. ( iPod / Gameboy / Cell Phone ) Because of these random checks he now leaves those items on his desk in plain view.

Are you the TSA? I mean, unless his phone or iPod was causing a noticeable decrease in his school productivity or he was getting detentions, don't you think it might be worth it to let him bring some electronics to school? Maybe if there's an emergency he can call you on his cell phone or something? When I was in HS, you weren't allowed to bring iPods but I was never stopped by my parents. Just a nice, "Joe, you're gonna get a detention (pretend Joe is my name)!" said in a playful tone that I knew meant "it's your responsibility not to get caught."

Actually we do from time to time, stop in the schools unannounced to see what is going on and to check lockers, and cause our children untold amounts of social ostracization and ridicule..

There, fixed.

I think it is a parents responsibility to set standards of behavior, and to take actions necessary to enforce those standards.

It is. But I'd prefer to do something stupid (barring getting killed or thrown in jail) and facing the consequences and learning things on my own rather than arbitrarily being told what to do/what not to do.



I'm going to conclude this post saying that you might read what I've written as offensive or a severe critique of parenting, but it isn't. Being older than HS age, but not quite in the full adult world (I'm in college) I'm able to look at situations as if I were a child, but old enough to recognize that you seem to really care about your children's outcome in life, which is to be admired.



OK, on the topic of women's clothes. Being in college, you really get ALL types of styles. On party nights you have the girls who dress like major...nightwalkers, and those that just wear sweats and stuff. Personally, I'm all for a Polo shirt and some tight-ish pants/jeans.

 

[XIII]

Actually 2 are under 15, 2 are over 15 ... the two over have a little more freedom as they have proven themselves to be somewhat responsible. They as a result of proving themselves responsible have earned a little more liberty.

Checking bags, lockers, and random visits to school are what we did prior to them being 15 or so .... DEPENDING on their behaviors. Misbehaving earns closer scrutiny. Basically we just enforced school rules, perhaps a little closer than most parents, but we never once got a call that our children were caught with anything they were not supposed to have.

Think of it this way ..... if I check their bags and/or lockers and find something there that shouldn't be there, I have done them a big favor.

How is that a favor?

Well *I* found the item, so they have to answer to *ME*.

Understand that the schools here have the right to search bags and lockers at will, and should they *school* find the items, the child has to now deal with the *school* AND *ME*. If the schools find a banned item, on first offense they return the item to the Parent, which means *I* have to make a trip to school and be lectured!

Some of what we look for is banned by the schools at grade levels K-8, once they enter the 9-12 grades the schools grant them more freedoms as well.

Again here, we are talking about certain behaviors and knowing when they are appropriate or not.

Funny how conversations can take odd twists and turns, especially this one!

Ok, fair enough. I am 17, I had this image of my parents marching into school demanding to search my bag and locker - and I didn't think that was very fair.. but obviously that's not really the case. I guess it's fair to enforce the rules set by the school.

 

[MacNut]

Ok, fair enough. I am 17, I had this image of my parents marching into school demanding to search my bag and locker - and I didn't think that was very fair.. but obviously that's not really the case. I guess it's fair to enforce the rules set by the school.

In theory, until you turn 18 there is not much you can do about it.

 

[harcosparky]

Ok, fair enough. I am 17, I had this image of my parents marching into school demanding to search my bag and locker - and I didn't think that was very fair.. but obviously that's not really the case. I guess it's fair to enforce the rules set by the school.

Well you are 17 and I can understand your perspective, and to some it may not be fair.

But when you think about it, life isn't 'fair' ... life is 'reality'.

The reality is that no matter where you live, society has rules. You can flaunt those rules if you choose to do so, but there are consequences. Sure you could smuggle say an iPod into school and get away with it, or NOT. If rules are not enforced, what good are the rules. If rules are enforced and and consequences not suffered for violating those rule than what good are the rules.

We live in a strange times ....

If a child in the USA takes an Aspirin to school, they could face suspension / expulsion for violating Drug policy.

If a child takes a G.I. Joe doll to school and G.I. Joe has his tiny plastic gun, he could face suspension/expulsion for bringing a gun to school, even though it is clearly a TOY GUN.

If a 16 year old boy talks to a classmate about " whacking someone with a chain gun " he will at the very least be taken to the office and the parents called. ... Never mind that whoever reported him only heard " whacking someone with a chain gun ". .... When what was said was " I watched a kid at the store play a Playstation game and he walked around whacking someone with a chain gun. "

If a 6 year old boy walks up and plants a kiss on a 6 year old female classmate he could face suspension/expulsion for sexual assault AND THIS HAS OCCURED.

They call this " Zero Tolerance " for ____________ .

My youngest son went to school with a cough, we could not give him any kind of cough 'medication' to take with him. So we had him eat a little Honey and the cough was suppressed. We got him some packets of Honey to take to school. Even so he was nervous about that.

Now here is something for parents that is NOT FAIR ....

There are laws saying we must insure our children are in school.
What if the child refuses to go to school and takes off everyday?
Law says parents can be jailed if their kids are not in school.
So what can we do to FORCE our children to attend school?
If was use Physical Force to take them to school the law says we can be jailed for " child abuse ".

What is fair about that ????

 

[Blue Velvet]

Ms. Mod says: Let's please try to keep this thread on topic or it'll end up in the PRSI forum... where I'm sure they'll welcome a thread on women's fashion with open arms. Thanks.

 

[Abstract]

I am old enough to have common sense and know what decency is, and to impart that knowledge on my children. I as a parent am responsible for having children and also for what those children do, and how they act.

How the hell can a parent NOT know what their children are wearing to school? The comment about the webcam, I guess was some weak attempt at humor, but it wasn't really funny.

You can't know for certain that they don't have a tattoo on their body unless you see them naked. So if you don't find what I said funny, that's too bad, but it wasn't only meant as a joke, just a reality check.

We, the wife and I are parents and .... OH MY GOD ... we are INVOLVED in the lives of our children. We actually know what they wear, where they go, and for the most part who they hang out with.

Yes, "for the most part." There are a lot of people in high schools and university that aren't great people, and yet your daughter(s) may be acquaintances, or somewhat good friends with them. It doesn't mean your daughters have to do anything bad. I have had friends in the past who do bad things, but I never find myself having to join in. I'm usually not even there. I just say "Hi" and talk to them when I see them, or go out to a bar with them and some friends I'm closer to.

It's going to happen. You just need to let go a bit and let your daughters use their own judgement. There's rarely a truly "proper" way to act. They just need to be themselves, and use what they have learnt by living.

Because of these random checks he now leaves those items on his desk in plain view.

Actually we do from time to time, stop in the schools unannounced to see what is going on and to check lockers.

I think it is a parents responsibility to set standards of behavior, and to take actions necessary to enforce those standards.

So you don't trust your kids? You don't believe that as they get older, they would become more mature and make their own decisions?

You set standards by the way you act, and you have told them how you expect them to act (in a general sense). Anything beyond that is equivalent to puppetry. They are people, and they're not going to be, or shouldn't be, cookie-cutter perfect images of you and your wife.

 

[748s]

Well the boys have spoken.
Sorry ladies, looks like burkas for you.

Is intelligence falling backwards that fast?

A quote comes to mind, (might of read it here sometime in the past)
"One of my main problems with organized religion is the phallocentrism and hypocritical nature of the dogma.
The Bible was written by men, for men, to suit their purposes."

Sigh.

 

[r1ch4rd]

We live in a strange times ....

If a child in the USA takes an Aspirin to school, they could face suspension / expulsion for violating Drug policy.

If a child takes a G.I. Joe doll to school and G.I. Joe has his tiny plastic gun, he could face suspension/expulsion for bringing a gun to school, even though it is clearly a TOY GUN.

etc etc

I am always amazed by these kind of incidents but there seems to be something about the USA that encourages them.

When I was at school (in the UK) we had none of the rules that you mention regarding toy guns and medicine. We also didn't have a drink, drug or violence problem. I can't remember ever having heard of children being involved with guns at any school in the UK. There have been school shootings but it has always been adults firing the gun (as far as I can remember).

Is there really such a problem in American schools that random locker searches and punishments for trivial "crimes", like bringing an iPod to school, are needed? Perhaps rebelling against this overbearing authority is what leads some kids to wear revealing clothes?

Also, being told to do things by your parents is generally seen as being uncool. No matter how cool the clothing that you suggest actually is it is probably a little tainted just because it is your recommendation. Nobody wants to dress like their parents. Other than school uniforms (which are mandatory in most UK schools) I was never told what not to wear when I was young and I have always chosen to wear sensible clothes.

I don't know if this is actually the cause, I am just throwing it out there. I may also be wide of the mark with my impressions of America, this is just the impression that I get from watching the news and from what people have said here.