REALLY worried about MBP - Magic Toolbar & ports

[Appleaker]

Just want TB3 to be honest.

1 port to rule them all!

Same here, I'm glad Apple are finally putting Thunderbolt 3 on Macs, and it's going to be put on basically the whole Mac lineup.
[doublepost=1477517278][/doublepost]I understand your concerns with the software Magic Toolbar, but while the ports change is inconvenient, it's the only way they can push USB C as a replacement for USB A. Similarly, removing the headphone jack was the only way they could truly push wireless as the replacement for wired.

 

[Chomp81]

Actually this is one point where I do disagree. If Apple do what we expect then they are actually moving to something where all of the ports are an open standard, unlike the Lightning connector (entirely Apple) or Thunderbolt (not an Apple standard, but many people assume it is because so few others use it). That's different from Memory Stick, where Sony tried to make their individual format a standard and failed.

That said, although moving to USB-C only is a very typical Apple move, it's also typical in that it doesn't consider the convenience of its customers. Everyone has a load of flash drives, and people do use them for transferring data between machines. That's not going to change overnight because Apple decide to change ports, it just means any Apple customers will need another dongle (a new dual-format drive doesn't solve the problem of someone giving you a file on theirs). Retaining one USB-A port would solve that. It means that any other peripherals you have need dongles or replacements, including those that are already working through dongles to fit the previous Apple port choices and those that were previously standard connections. Docks are fine at a desk, but many of us use a laptop on the move or for travel, so you still end up with the dongles in addition (or a second dock, in effect a very big dongle).

So yes, in the future USB-C will be the standard, but we're at the start of the transition. Deciding to remove all other ports rather than introducing USB-C to the mix (e.g. replacing the Thunderbolt ports with USB-C, or even just adding a couple of ports) will be an additional cost and inconvenience to many owners. But it is also very Apple to just do it and leave that to be the customers' problem, and the writing was on the wall when the Macbook came out last year. Maybe if their customers were less loyal they'd be more cautious?

(OLED bar: Let's see what the implementation is, and let's see what use others can make of it. Could be a benefit, might just be a gimmick that makes little difference in reality, could be an inconvenience if it ends up shutting out a function in a place you want to use it. Will wait and see).

EXACTLY!!!
We are on the transition move. You can't make all the ports USB-C.

Cheers,

 

[therealseebs]

I think it's a case of people worrying because Apple are changing what we are all use to. That's a good thing tho, Apple are moving forward, that's what we want and what they usually do anyway. If after tomorrows event, you don't like the MacBook Pro they will have announced, don't buy one.

Soooo... what do I do if I want to use OS X, and I want a laptop, and I need better performance than the two-year-old models have, but I still need features that Apple's decided aren't worth supporting?

Lack of a physical escape key is an actual problem for me. I use that key. A lot. It may be that the new machine simply can't do what I need a machine to do. In which case... If Apple won't let OS X run on any machine they don't make, and they won't make a machine that does what I need... Then what?

I don't see why people are so confused by people being worried that Apple's not going to provide hardware which meets their needs. One of the advantages of the Mac environment is the stable and integrated ecosystem. The corresponding disadvantage is total vendor lock-in; if Apple isn't making the machine you need, you're completely hosed. You have no alternatives or options.

 

[New_Mac_Smell]

Guys, calm down. Nothing has been announced yet! You're all acting like it's the end of the world to remove a key that hasn't been removed. For all you know it's still there. They could also change the software so you don't need it and use something else instead, you know, seeing as how they make the software?

 

[therealseebs]

I understand your concerns with the software Magic Toolbar, but while the ports change is inconvenient, it's the only way they can push USB C as a replacement for USB A.

"Hey, let's make a machine that you literally can't use until you replace everything you might use it with." That's a heck of a lot more extreme than merely "inconvenient".

And you know, they could just provide the alternative, and let the marketplace push USB C because it has actual benefits for the user. If it has few enough benefits that they genuinely can't sell anything for it without pushing people forcefully... Maybe that's not a good upgrade, then?

Similarly, removing the headphone jack was the only way they could truly push wireless as the replacement for wired.

Okay, but what if I don't want them to push that? What if I really like the ability to use the audio hardware I already own? I have a stereo system, I have mixers, I have all this stuff, and it all works with headphone jacks. None of it has even the beginnings of a way to do "wireless". Furthermore, I've had wireless audio, and I've hated it. It's always been of poor quality, and prone to failures that audio cables didn't have. I can have two computers right next to each other using audio cables, and they work. If it's wireless, they interfere with each other. I had a wireless headset for my phone, and it was awful, because it needed recharging, and then the battery went bad and it wouldn't hold a charge, and I gave up and got cheap wired headsets because they actually work.

Yes, I get it, they're pushing a thing they want to sell. But what they're pushing is completely unambiguously worse for me than the thing they had before. There is no way I'll get an iphone 7, and unless they give us SOME kind of headphone jack, probably not an 8 or 9 or 10 either. I still like my physical headphones. I'll buy hardware that lets me use them.
[doublepost=1477527695][/doublepost]

Guys, calm down. Nothing has been announced yet! You're all acting like it's the end of the world to remove a key that hasn't been removed. For all you know it's still there. They could also change the software so you don't need it and use something else instead, you know, seeing as how they make the software?

We've seen the pictures of the keyboard, the key's not there.

And... No, they can't change the software, because they are not the only software vendor. I use my Mac to, among other things, access other computers and use software on those computers. Some of that software uses the escape key. Lack of that key will suck for me.

It's not "the end of the world", any more than it'd be the "end of the world" for them to make a keyboard that didn't have a number row, or any punctuation. It wouldn't end the world, it'd just make the laptop a horrible pain to use.

 

[New_Mac_Smell]

We've seen the pictures of the keyboard, the key's not there.

And... No, they can't change the software, because they are not the only software vendor. I use my Mac to, among other things, access other computers and use software on those computers. Some of that software uses the escape key. Lack of that key will suck for me.

It's not "the end of the world", any more than it'd be the "end of the world" for them to make a keyboard that didn't have a number row, or any punctuation. It wouldn't end the world, it'd just make the laptop a horrible pain to use.

So you think they'll remove a key and you'll be stuck in applications that use that key forever? Surely if it's essential that an app uses that key it'll be present on the OLED? They haven't removed the key at all, they've changed it from what I can tell. Functionally it'll be exactly the same.

What I'm guessing with this OLED is that it'll display app specific functions, hotkeys as it were. And you can maybe swipe right to get the standard bar up, or left to bring up your dock. So if you need that key it will always be there.

 

[therealseebs]

So you think they'll remove a key and you'll be stuck in applications that use that key forever?

I'm a Unix user, which is why I'm not running Windows. I still like to use an editor which uses the escape key. I use Terminal, I connect to remote machines, I use the escape key. Sometimes I use other terminal apps. I actually want that key. I also actually want the function keys. I use them somewhat regularly.

It's not possible for a softkey to replace these entirely; part of what I need when typing is the tactile feedback I get from keys.

Surely if it's essential that an app uses that key it'll be present on the OLED? They haven't removed the key at all, they've changed it from what I can tell. Functionally it'll be exactly the same.

There is not a physical escape key. They have, in fact, removed the key.

What I'm guessing with this OLED is that it'll display app specific functions, hotkeys as it were. And you can maybe swipe right to get the standard bar up, or left to bring up your dock. So if you need that key it will always be there.

If I need that key, it will be possible to make a software thing that behaves a bit like it if a particular app writer happens to have anticipated my needs, probably.

That's... not really a substitute.

Why not replace the entire keyboard with a touch surface? Because tactile feedback matters.

I know it can be upsetting when people are not automatically happy with everything Apple does, no matter what Apple does. But I've been using Macs pretty much continuously since 1987, and I was a NeXT user long before Apple bought NeXT and turned it into OS X, and I really do have some ability to evaluate my needs and preferences. And Apple has been, for the last few years, moving very aggressively away from making the machines I need to do my work. And it's upsetting already, but having people cheerleading at me about how Apple did everything right and it's impossible for anything Apple does to be a bad idea does not help.

 

[Abazigal]

Don't get me started on a "Pro" computer that requires dongles to work with SD Cards, USB's or to be connected to an HDMI screen.

It's a single adaptor to connect your HDMI cable, USB hub and charger to your new Macbook's USB-C port. For a small expenditure, that sounds like a huge benefit, since I now only need to unplug one cable when I previously had to unplug 2 or even 3.

 

[New_Mac_Smell]

I'm a Unix user, which is why I'm not running Windows. I still like to use an editor which uses the escape key. I use Terminal, I connect to remote machines, I use the escape key. Sometimes I use other terminal apps. I actually want that key. I also actually want the function keys. I use them somewhat regularly.

It's not possible for a softkey to replace these entirely; part of what I need when typing is the tactile feedback I get from keys.



There is not a physical escape key. They have, in fact, removed the key.



If I need that key, it will be possible to make a software thing that behaves a bit like it if a particular app writer happens to have anticipated my needs, probably.

That's... not really a substitute.

Why not replace the entire keyboard with a touch surface? Because tactile feedback matters.

I know it can be upsetting when people are not automatically happy with everything Apple does, no matter what Apple does. But I've been using Macs pretty much continuously since 1987, and I was a NeXT user long before Apple bought NeXT and turned it into OS X, and I really do have some ability to evaluate my needs and preferences. And Apple has been, for the last few years, moving very aggressively away from making the machines I need to do my work. And it's upsetting already, but having people cheerleading at me about how Apple did everything right and it's impossible for anything Apple does to be a bad idea does not help.

I'm not cheerleading anything. Your main issue from what I can tell seems to be the lack of tactile feedback on they keys, as I firmly believe the keys will still be present, and it wouldn't surprise me if they added haptic to it to give you some feedback (Although yes I know, not quite the same). Either way, all I'm trying to say is why don't you wait until it's actually announced before dooming it? At absolute worst I imagine by next week there'll be a physical key strip that fits flush over it that you can buy or kickstart.

Honestly sounds like you need a hug. Like you're bowing out as you've had enough with Apple. Which is fine, other manufacturers are available. Other keyboards are available too.

 

[therealseebs]

I'm not cheerleading anything. Your main issue from what I can tell seems to be the lack of tactile feedback on they keys, as I firmly believe the keys will still be present, and it wouldn't surprise me if they added haptic to it to give you some feedback (Although yes I know, not quite the same). Either way, all I'm trying to say is why don't you wait until it's actually announced before dooming it? At absolute worst I imagine by next week there'll be a physical key strip that fits flush over it that you can buy or kickstart.

Honestly sounds like you need a hug. Like you're bowing out as you've had enough with Apple. Which is fine, other manufacturers are available. Other keyboards are available too.

Haptic isn't even similar, not just "not quite the same".

The problem, I guess, is: Apple won't let people run OS X on other hardware, but keeps narrowing their range of hardware choices. And people keep saying it's fine and everything's good and none of these decisions make the Mac any less perfect, but... It really does sorta suck being dropped from Apple's market. And I have longer-term concerns, because I don't know any programmers who don't have complaints along the same lines. Part of Apple's resurgence and success has been that a MacBook of some sort running OS X was unequivocally a way better developer experience than Windows had to offer. Now, I still think it's better, but... It's not unequivocally better. Not even close. I have to give up a lot of core functionality and things I regard as pretty essential to get a Mac environment now.

 

[Bryan Bowler]

Calm down dude. Your continual use of bold text does not impress me.

Apple has already given you the choice to map the Escape key to several different locations. You'll be able to map it to a physical key and then you can press it as much as you want.

You're not going to lose your precious Escape key.

 

[Capt T]

Apple is well known for removing aging ports, drives and whatever else from their MacBook Pro updates and keeping the newer tech only. I have a bunch of dongles for my 2012 rmbp that for the most part anymore sit in my backpack. Used them at first then slowly over time, cables or peripherals were replaced with newer tech, and no longer needed them. Still carry them on the off chance I run into older tech I need to connect to. So it just means I might need a new set of dongles, which Apple already have available, as they are used on the MacBook by some for the last year or so.

Seems like business as usual for Apple, and did not seem to hurt them in the past.

As to the 'magic toolbar'. I hope that developers utilize it well. I draft, as well as use many of the Adobe products for media design, photography and other for work. I could see some great potential for this bar. Also hope that there is the option as a user to set it up function wise within each app, so things I personally use quite a bit could be implemented in a single tap, not unlike some of the external keypads I have used. Seems there is so much potential with this addition if implemented well. It may take a few months to get there, I am realistic that developers need time to update software, as well as time to get used to a new way to do things.


Tomorrow will answer most of our questions...should be an interesting press event

 

[dogslobber]

The Magic Toolbar will be great as an advertising board like at soccer matches in Europe. You'll get scrolly messages on it when you surf the web. Thing of the possibilities!

 

[Appleaker]

"Hey, let's make a machine that you literally can't use until you replace everything you might use it with." That's a heck of a lot more extreme than merely "inconvenient".

And you know, they could just provide the alternative, and let the marketplace push USB C because it has actual benefits for the user. If it has few enough benefits that they genuinely can't sell anything for it without pushing people forcefully... Maybe that's not a good upgrade, then?



Okay, but what if I don't want them to push that? What if I really like the ability to use the audio hardware I already own? I have a stereo system, I have mixers, I have all this stuff, and it all works with headphone jacks. None of it has even the beginnings of a way to do "wireless". Furthermore, I've had wireless audio, and I've hated it. It's always been of poor quality, and prone to failures that audio cables didn't have. I can have two computers right next to each other using audio cables, and they work. If it's wireless, they interfere with each other. I had a wireless headset for my phone, and it was awful, because it needed recharging, and then the battery went bad and it wouldn't hold a charge, and I gave up and got cheap wired headsets because they actually work.

Yes, I get it, they're pushing a thing they want to sell. But what they're pushing is completely unambiguously worse for me than the thing they had before. There is no way I'll get an iphone 7, and unless they give us SOME kind of headphone jack, probably not an 8 or 9 or 10 either. I still like my physical headphones. I'll buy hardware that lets me use them.
[doublepost=1477527695][/doublepost]

We've seen the pictures of the keyboard, the key's not there.

And... No, they can't change the software, because they are not the only software vendor. I use my Mac to, among other things, access other computers and use software on those computers. Some of that software uses the escape key. Lack of that key will suck for me.

It's not "the end of the world", any more than it'd be the "end of the world" for them to make a keyboard that didn't have a number row, or any punctuation. It wouldn't end the world, it'd just make the laptop a horrible pain to use.

If they were to do that it wouldn't become the standard. There are still laptops with USB 2 because the PC took that approach to USB 3.

 

[powertoold]

What I think would be really cool is if the app doesn't interface with the Magic Toolbar, Apple will simply put the File menu on the Toolbar, so in full screen mode, you can easily pick stuff from the File menu, which I do a lot in apps like Photoshop.

 

[Dave245]

Soooo... what do I do if I want to use OS X, and I want a laptop, and I need better performance than the two-year-old models have, but I still need features that Apple's decided aren't worth supporting?

Lack of a physical escape key is an actual problem for me. I use that key. A lot. It may be that the new machine simply can't do what I need a machine to do. In which case... If Apple won't let OS X run on any machine they don't make, and they won't make a machine that does what I need... Then what?

I don't see why people are so confused by people being worried that Apple's not going to provide hardware which meets their needs. One of the advantages of the Mac environment is the stable and integrated ecosystem. The corresponding disadvantage is total vendor lock-in; if Apple isn't making the machine you need, you're completely hosed. You have no alternatives or options.

I'm sure Apple are not going to completed remove the escape key without adding an alternative, maybe it will be apart of the OLED Touch bar, in that you can configure it. All I'm saying is at least wait until Apple have announced the new Mac's later today (UK time at least). I'm sure they have thought about all of this anyway.

 

[bjet767]

Really considering the Hackintosh alternative or definitely making my mind around that, even though is a great OS, the hardware part is weakening.

How are you going to get a Surface book to properly run OS X?

It takes the hacks and kernel fixes from dedicated hackers for you to have just an adequate non-Apple OS X machine. I don't know of a successful notebook in the size of MBP working as a Hackintosh.


The dongles and USB C ports are far easier than the Hackintosh hassle.
[doublepost=1477545783][/doublepost]

Really considering the Hackintosh alternative or definitely making my mind around that, even though is a great OS, the hardware part is weakening.

How are you going to get a Surface book to properly run OS X?

It takes the hacks and kernel fixes from dedicated hackers for you to have just an adequate non-Apple OS X machine. I don't know of a successful notebook in the size of MBP working as a Hackintosh.


The dongles and USB C ports are far easier than the Hackintosh hassle.

 

[b_scott]

It's a single adaptor to connect your HDMI cable, USB hub and charger to your new Macbook's USB-C port. For a small expenditure, that sounds like a huge benefit, since I now only need to unplug one cable when I previously had to unplug 2 or even 3.

to be fair you're assuming everyone sits at a desk with all their stuff. If all I grab and put in my bag is my MBP, I can still currently connect most devices to it through USB-A.

 

[/V\acpower]

a) The Magic Toolbar, since there are no API's, it's actual value is remain to be seen.
b) Mmmm, so I have to buy an adapter to the cable of my external HDD? Connect the dongle to a new dongle? Or your solution is to buy a new HDD? USB sticks are going to be a problem, indeed. So your solution is to buy a new everything, in order to accommodate to Apple's wishes? Just read a little bit on how Sony business went when they tried that. SD Cards, exactly, is going to be a problem and we don't know; therefore the title is I'm scared, not I'm disappointed.
c) If you decide to buy a $1000 laptop on the fact that "you can charge it on both sides", well... there's nothing more to be said; sad.

Here it is, 8.99$ for 3 USB A adapter.

https://www.amazon.com/Adapter-CHOE...&keywords=USB+C+to+USB+A+female+adapter&psc=1

You're welcome
[doublepost=1477553652][/doublepost]

I'm a Unix user, which is why I'm not running Windows. I still like to use an editor which uses the escape key. I use Terminal, I connect to remote machines, I use the escape key. Sometimes I use other terminal apps. I actually want that key. I also actually want the function keys. I use them somewhat regularly.

It's not possible for a softkey to replace these entirely; part of what I need when typing is the tactile feedback I get from keys.



There is not a physical escape key. They have, in fact, removed the key.



If I need that key, it will be possible to make a software thing that behaves a bit like it if a particular app writer happens to have anticipated my needs, probably.

That's... not really a substitute.

Why not replace the entire keyboard with a touch surface? Because tactile feedback matters.

I know it can be upsetting when people are not automatically happy with everything Apple does, no matter what Apple does. But I've been using Macs pretty much continuously since 1987, and I was a NeXT user long before Apple bought NeXT and turned it into OS X, and I really do have some ability to evaluate my needs and preferences. And Apple has been, for the last few years, moving very aggressively away from making the machines I need to do my work. And it's upsetting already, but having people cheerleading at me about how Apple did everything right and it's impossible for anything Apple does to be a bad idea does not help.

Well I imagine that any app that doesn't use the particular Touch bar API will have default escape button on top left corner.

And tactile feedback is useful cause it let you know where your fingers are, you "feel" it. On a all touchscreen keyboard it's clearly annoying. However since on the MBP it will only be one row, actually your finger will never really miss since it's the only glass part of the keyboard. I mean, you likely won't ever miss an escape key stroke because there isn't nowhere else to hit, except too much on the right, something that is very unlikely to happen if you are already used to hit escape in the top left corner.

Also, the actual "hit zone" for an escape button could be way bigger than the physical button it replace. It's highly likely that at least some third party app will let you configure the touch bar buttons, and probably that you will be able to actually make the escape button something like 1 1/2 inch wide for example.

---

About the Touch bar

Personnally I think that Apple will replace volume and brightness with finger gestures. like 2 fingers slide to the right or left = volume up and down. 3 fingers = brightness up and down.

If it incluse force touch, it could also be "2 fingers hard press = mute on or off" "3 fingers = shut down screen"

I think that it will be used to browse videos, and that the API will let apps use the touch bar for very precise sliders. (I already imagine that Pixelmator folks are already implementing something like that)

However it could also be used to move the dock on the touch bar when you select the option "hide dock", which could actually free a good chunk of screen space for lots of peoples.

 

[mctrials23]

Its not long to wait now. Then people can really get their whinge on.

 

[username:]

I'm a little bit "scared" of what's coming tomorrow.

Removing the function keys and having a Magic Toolbar will make the functionality of the MacBook Pro extremely dependent on software updates and that the developers really take the updates seriously.

For example; if running Microsoft Excel 2010 in Parallels Desktop (which is a bi-annual rent), how are the Function keys (vital for Excel usage) going to work? Is the Magic Toolbar going to adapt to this type of software?

Don't get me started on a "Pro" computer that requires dongles to work with SD Cards, USB's or to be connected to an HDMI screen.

Really considering the Hackintosh alternative or definitely making my mind around that, even though is a great OS, the hardware part is weakening.

There might be a "default" option for anyone afraid to move on

 

[Barrierfreeman]

Thank you for sharing one of the most dumb arguments I have ever heard...

You started a thread detailing how scared/worried you are about a new model of Macbook. You really can't be judging anyone.

Its not long to wait now. Then people can really get their whinge on.

INB4 'anyone else have a yellow tinge on their screen?!?!!?!?'

 

[Samuelsan2001]

Soooo... what do I do if I want to use OS X, and I want a laptop, and I need better performance than the two-year-old models have, but I still need features that Apple's decided aren't worth supporting?

Lack of a physical escape key is an actual problem for me. I use that key. A lot. It may be that the new machine simply can't do what I need a machine to do. In which case... If Apple won't let OS X run on any machine they don't make, and they won't make a machine that does what I need... Then what?

I don't see why people are so confused by people being worried that Apple's not going to provide hardware which meets their needs. One of the advantages of the Mac environment is the stable and integrated ecosystem. The corresponding disadvantage is total vendor lock-in; if Apple isn't making the machine you need, you're completely hosed. You have no alternatives or options.

Firstly no one needs anything from a computer other than that it runs the software they need and connects to peripherals, anything apple will release will do those two things without any issue and be more powerful to boot, you have no argument there. It may work in a different way it may need a couple of new cables but essentially it will be a computer that does what you need.

Secondly Apple do provide a great stable integrated platform, part of that is their complete control over software and hardware and realising their vision of how computing should work. If that is not what your vision of computing is then jump ship, there are many other options out there and they will all work just fine with each other these days.

 

[Jayderek]

Its not long to wait now. Then people can really get their whinge on.

Just think of all the people that have threatened to leave Apple once this is announced as this doesn't fit their exacting views of what the next MBP should be. It's going to feel like such a ghost town in here...

...oh wait.

They won't actually leave. They'll hang around and continue whining instead of moving to a different laptop with ports they supposedly can't live without. Boy I wish alcohol was allowed here at work...I think I'm going to need it when checking these boards.

 

[therealseebs]

Calm down dude. Your continual use of bold text does not impress me.

It's not there to impress you, it's there to add additional information because text doesn't otherwise have anything parallel to how humans use intonation in speech.

Apple has already given you the choice to map the Escape key to several different locations. You'll be able to map it to a physical key and then you can press it as much as you want.

Only if I want to lose one of the other keys. The new keyboard hasn't got any spares; everything left on it is already in use. (I also wasn't aware of any options for remapping escape, although maybe they're new in versions of OS X that won't run usably on my current hardware.)

You're not going to lose your precious Escape key.

This is both condescending and transparently false. We have pictures of the keyboard. There's no escape key. There's also no spare keys that aren't also necessary for ordinary daily use.
[doublepost=1477579473][/doublepost]

I have a feeling these threads are goin


Just think of all the people that have threatened to leave Apple once this is announced as this doesn't fit their exacting views of what the next MBP should be. It's going to feel like such a ghost town in here...

...oh wait.

They won't actually leave. They'll hang around and continue whining instead of moving to a different laptop with ports they supposedly can't live without. Boy I wish alcohol was allowed here at work...I think I'm going to need it when checking these boards.

That's sort of the thing about vendor lock-in. There aren't any different laptops that run Mac OS X. So either I give up the $many of apps I've bought, and which I'm comfortable with and used to using, or I live without all the things Apple's decided I don't need. Some day they may finally go far enough that I am better off running a Windows machine and trying to work on it, and that would really suck, but... Bleh.

And seriously, "exacting" views? I want a keyboard that has the same basic functionality that has been in every single keyboard I have seen, from any vendor, in the last 30 years. The "escape" key is not some hugely esoteric thing. I don't think I have a single application in which the escape key isn't used.

The OLED bar looks awesome. I just don't see the benefit in losing a row of keys for it.