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RealNetworks To Sell iPod-Compatible Songs

question -

why cant APPLE just release a firmware update that makes harmony as useless as rob glasser and his crappy MUSIC STORE?
 
Dilly of a pickle

This is one dilly of a pickle. Hmmm, should apple open up the iPod to let every store sell songs to it? Here is this music device, you sell music at your store, we sell the device...? Money....Mmmmm. iTunes is the best music store. It makes little money. The iPod is the best and makes a lot of money. Is the iPod without iTunes the best? Sell more iPods? Sell the whole package? Man, this is a tough spot. Damn. I think Apple should sue them.
Sue Sue Sue! They are trying to steal apple's business here.
 
Apple issues official statement on Real's Harmony

Apple today released the following statement: "We are stunned that RealNetworks has adopted the tactics and ethics of a hacker to break into the iPod(R), and we are investigating the implications of their actions under the DMCA and other laws. We strongly caution Real and their customers that when we update our iPod software from time to time it is highly likely that Real's Harmony technology will cease to work with current and future iPods."

From macminute
 
Molson said:
Apple today released the following statement: "We are stunned that RealNetworks has adopted the tactics and ethics of a hacker to break into the iPod(R), and we are investigating the implications of their actions under the DMCA and other laws. We strongly caution Real and their customers that when we update our iPod software from time to time it is highly likely that Real's Harmony technology will cease to work with current and future iPods."

From macminute
Click to expand...

Also an article on CNN this morning:


Apple: RealNetworks hacked iPod
iPod maker alleges Real violated its music player, says new software will not support its products.
July 29, 2004: 9:40 AM EDT

NEW YORK (CNN/Money) - Apple Computer accused RealNetworks Thursday of adopting the tactics of a hacker and breaking into the technology behind its popular music player iPod device.

RealNetworks unveiled a new product Monday called Harmony that allows users to download music from its online music store and use it on any portable music player, including Apple's iPod.

"We are stunned that RealNetworks has adopted the tactics and ethics of a hacker to break into the iPod," Apple said in a release.

Previously, iPod would only play digitally protected songs that carry restrictions and were purchased from Apple's own iTunes music store.

Apple said Thursday it is looking into Real's actions under various laws. It said that it would "strongly caution" Real and its customers that when iPod software is updated, Harmony will stop working with "current and future" iPods.

A spokesman for RealNetworks was unavailable for immediate comment Thursday. The company provides media playback technology to CNN and CNN/Money.

Real said Monday its engineers worked out a way for its files to be compatible with iPod solely through analysis of publicly-available information.

Apple has seen sales of iPod boost its bottom line over the past several quarters and has unveiled a smaller, lower-cost version.
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Time to bring out the flesh-eating lawyers.

-Joe
 
niels said:
Why FairPlay compatible songs won’t play in iTunes

RealPlayer is using a trick. It does not use the whole FairPlay system, but only creates a FairPlay compatible file. It encrypts the song with a random key and places the file on the iPod and the key in the iPod key repository. Nothing more.
Click to expand...

If this is truly how Real is working with Harmony, then the logical Apple reaction need only be an iPod firmware update which encrypts (using a single, private key) the key repository, and an iTunes/QT update which uses that single private key to update the key list on the iPod.

If the key list is encrypted, it is protected by DMCA, so long as Apple makes reasonable efforts to keep the universal key secret.

A few questions, though:

1) Does RealPlayer have the ability to play these FairPlay files or not?

2) If it does not, then it must either store two copies of the song on your hard drive, or it must re-mux the FairPlay version every single time you move any song across the iPod/iTunes connection.

Seems clunky. Maybe Apple won't have to do anything to kill this circumvention ...
 
jettredmont said:
If this is truly how Real is working with Harmony, then the logical Apple reaction need only be an iPod firmware update which encrypts (using a single, private key) the key repository, and an iTunes/QT update which uses that single private key to update the key list on the iPod.
Click to expand...
The key repository is already encrypted.

If the key list is encrypted, it is protected by DMCA, so long as Apple makes reasonable efforts to keep the universal key secret.
Click to expand...
Wrong. Tell me, have you even read the DMCA?

The key list is not copyrighted and has no protection under traditional copyright law or the DMCA.
 
This could hurt and help apple, sell more ipods, less music store sales.... Despite what Apple says, I don't see how selling 100,000,000 songs (keeping 1/3) can't earn money.
 
jared_kipe said:
This could hurt and help apple, sell more ipods, less music store sales.... Despite what Apple says, I don't see how selling 100,000,000 songs (keeping 1/3) can't earn money.
Click to expand...

I suppose a lot of it goes into keeping the store up and to date, not to mention the number of promotional things they have done, like the Pepsi thing etc. But I agree, if they're not making much of the store, where is the money going?
 
Excellent post

I am going to post your words on Yahoo message board under Realnetworks and Apple. I hate to copy your comment, but damn you said it so well.

mullmann said:
Funny how the only company with any integrity in this whole business is Apple. Regardless of what one thinks about their decision to (try to) keep iPod/iTunes a closed platform, they've at least been consistently up-front about why they want to do that: it moves the merchandise. And their results have proven that out. Glaser at RealNetworks is running his mouth about Harmony being all about "user choice," and amazingly the consumer groups are eating it up. But there's nothing altruistic here: it's really all about Glaser trying to prop up the fortunes of his own lagging, also-ran music store. The majority of the populace doesn't care about the music store, they care about the music player. In that regard, they have a ton of choices available, and they're making theirs in droves: the iPod. Glaser's got the tail wagging the dog. And why aren't any of these people busy noticing that all this "consumer choice" is really just saying let's lock everyone into Microsoft's format? There's a world of downside to that outcome that Glaser and others just pretend doesn't exist.
Click to expand...
 
SandyL said:
The key repository is already encrypted.
Click to expand...

Really? Can you provide a reference? My understanding is that it is "hidden", but not encrypted by any standard definition.

Wrong. Tell me, have you even read the DMCA?

The key list is not copyrighted and has no protection under traditional copyright law or the DMCA.
Click to expand...

I am not a lawyer, however the various DMCA synopses about tend to unanimously interpret it as protecting anything which is encrypted, and I don't see a copyrightable condition on that. In fact, it seems that one of the early DMCA uses was regarding non-copyrighted data (I may be wrong as the details aren't coming to mind). Granted, yes, it seems odd for the Digital Millenium Copyright Act to have non-copyright effects, but that is generally the main problem with the DMCA (it is very broad).

So, the question is, are you a lawyer who has read the DMCA and understands its intricacies?

If you are not, can you provide a source which backs up your claims?
 
jared_kipe said:
This could hurt and help apple, sell more ipods, less music store sales.... Despite what Apple says, I don't see how selling 100,000,000 songs (keeping 1/3) can't earn money.
Click to expand...

No, they're definitely making a profit: just not a very big one.

http://www.geek.com/news/geeknews/2003Jun/bma20030603020244.htm
http://www.time.com/time/2003/inventions/invmusic.html

One article says 4 to 17 cents, the other says no more than 10 (both per song sold). That means even after $100,000,000 in sales the iTunes Music Store has "only" brought in $10 million of profit. That's not very much to a company like Apple over such a long period of time (about 2 years?)
 
On line music stores are tiny compared to CD purchases. I suggest this will change in the next few years. There will be significant profits to be made for companies that do it right, even if the margin per song is small.
 
jettredmont said:
Really? Can you provide a reference?
Click to expand...
Open Source implementation of FairPlay. Check the GetUserKey function.


I am not a lawyer, however the various DMCA synopses about tend to unanimously interpret it as protecting anything which is encrypted, and I don't see a copyrightable condition on that.
Click to expand...

Sec 1201:
VIOLATIONS REGARDING CIRCUMVENTION OF TECHNOLOGICAL MEASURES- (1)(A) No person shall circumvent a technological measure that effectively controls access to a work protected under this title.
Click to expand...
 
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