RealNetworks To Sell iPod-Compatible Songs

[svenas1]

I Suspect that you may be able to download Real music to your iPod but you'll have to use Real software to do it, and i know that if i can't play the music in iTunes. I'm not going to start Real player to listen to a few "special" tracks. I want my music in one place in my computer and my iPod there is no point in buy from them if i have to use 2 different players when i'm at home.

To me this is the main reason why Apple will not like what Real did. Having two apps would completely spoil the ease of use of the iPod. Maybe not for the few people on these boards, but now that the iPod is such a huge thing, it should remain simple for everyone, not just computer people. This just creates endless possibilities for things to mess up. And Apple (& SJ) being the control freaks they are (I mean this in a good way ;-)) will hate to have to worry about Real messing with the iPod.

Say Real songs somehow don't play nice anymore and cause your iPod to crash a lot. What's Apple going to do ?? Bang on their doors and keep shouting : "Fix this now" until they're blue in the face ?? No way, if there is a problem with Apples most beloved toy, I bet they want to be able to take care of it immediately. Not wait until Glasers boys get their butts in gear.

 

[dontmatter]

Here's my view-first off, increased competition, yes, is a good thing, in general, but for apple, I want my apple computer as well supported as it can be, so I'd prefer they keep on top of the music market, so microsoft can't be such a bully. That said, the value of the ipod increases as sources of music increase, and it is apple's moneymaker. It just isn't so good that apple didn't liscence fairplay. But really, I don't think this is that big a deal-ipods still do great, and this isn't going to harm or help them that much-they're still compatible with 70% of music sold online, and that isn't such a huge part of people's collection, anyway. itunes, through the ipod and rendevous, is not going away, and this can prop up itms, so long as they keep the store relatively nice.

Now, for the part that's off topic, but has to go here because I can't access the vast majority of macrumors.com, and none of it by conventional means: I keep on getting this message : Warning: mysql_connect(): Host '192.168.1.4' is blocked because of many connection errors. Unblock with 'mysqladmin flush-hosts' in /home/macrumor/public_html/csspvt/cssdbinit.inc on line 8
Unable to connect to database

and I can't live without my rumors! you have no idea how hard it was for me to even get here, because I can't access most links from the one page I could reach, my user profile, anyway. help, anybody?

 

[Rower_CPU]

arn has been notified of the issue - he'll take care of it as soon as he can.

 

[MacFan26]

alright, maybe this is a stupid question, but is this service available yet, or at least to try out? As far as I know it's only in beta, to be released later this year.

 

[kiwi]

What is it that Apple would sue over? I don't see a problem but maybe I'm missing something. Now if someone did the opposite, and came out with their own unlicensed portable hardware device the size of an iPod that played iTunes DRM files, then I would understand a lawsuit.

 

[gensor]

Itunes should now rent music for $5 month

and deliver a blow to Real. Then file a lawsuit. They won't be able to raise money with the lawsuit and they are already losing money with their $10 a month subscribption model.

 

[SandyL]

1. Reverse engineering is not illegal. MacOS X supports Windows Filesharing through Samba, an open source product created through reverse engineering.

2. The DMCA outlaws DRM circumvention. Real is not circumventing DRM. They are adding FairPlay DRM to audio files.

3. Real claims that they have not reverse engineered FairPlay. This claim is most likely true. Why on earth would Real reverse engineer something that was reverse engineered already 6 months ago?
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2004/01/05/itunes_drm_cracked_wide_open/

4. Apple does not have any patents on FairPlay. FairPlay uses MD5 and AES, which are in the public domain.

If Real starts selling AAC tracks at 160Kbit or higher, then Apple will be in trouble. 128 just isn't good enough with some recordings.

Real's music store sells 192Kbit/s AAC tracks.

 

[iMeowbot]

alright, maybe this is a stupid question, but is this service available yet, or at least to try out?

The public beta begins tomorrow.

As far as I know it's only in beta, to be released later this year.

Right, final release after the beta.

 

[notmenotyou]

iTMS, ease of use, and elegance, do not belong anywhere near each other. iTMS is the most bungled piece of crap ever, they need to hire an actual designer.

who are you working for? just wondering, M$? Sony? or maybe Real?

 

[MacFan26]

The public beta begins tomorrow.

Right, final release after the beta.

Thanks

and deliver a blow to Real. Then file a lawsuit. They won't be able to raise money with the lawsuit and they are already losing money with their $10 a month subscribption model.

I don't think there's any way iTunes is going to rent music. Steve Jobs has said multiple times that people want to own their music, not rent it. Besides, most of the subscription services are the ones that don't work.

 

[rdowns]

Do you pay any attention at all? Apple has, since the beginning, maintained the very best and most consistent prices at iTMS. As for the iPod, you get what you pay for: Quality and Style. Just look at the other players - they are all crap. I'm sure they work fine, but they're ugly and not at all easy to use. The 4th generation iPods are super slick with the mini's click wheel. And did you just overlook the fact that Apple dropped the price of the iPods by $100 on the 4th generation players?

Let's be honest here. Apple moved the 20 and 40 GB models to new price points and took away items that had been standard in the previous version of those models. (dock, remote, case).

 

[rdowns]

A lot of people seem to be bashing real's software, which in the past i grant you has been shoddy to say the least... but i must admit the new version is very nice indeed, its stable and plays rather well. Give the new version a try

On the DRM note if Apple licence it it will almost certainly become the standard, standards = profits, if they wait too long it wont only be real competing, imagine if ms make one too (i mean one that works with iPods)

I agree with you, Real improved their player by leaps and bounds this release. As much as I love Macs and Apple (hell, I sold their technology for years) the zealots here can't see beyond their Apple logos. Jobs could walk on stage at the next expo, drop his pants and poop and call it iPoo. All we'd see in here is complaints that it wouldn't be available for 6-8 weeks or why isn't there a Pro version available.

 

[mojohanna]

Why? Are you an Apple stockholder? It's a win-win situation for everyone else. Other mp3 player owners can play itune music store songs on their hardware, ipod owners can buy compatible songs from other vendors. Unless you believe it is right that companies can use the DMCA to maintain artificial monopolies (not what it was intended for) then you should support this.

Apple will still sell plenty of ipods because of style and because they are the market leader but a bit of competition will force them to be honest and keep prices fair.

Lest we all forget the fact that the iPod is EXTREMELY profitable for Apple. Supply is tight demand is, well, overwhelming. Apple does not have to charge less for the iPod. Open the technology up to everyone else and guess what happens. Someone looks at a 30gig Nomad and a 40gig iPod. iPod is 2x as much. Apple looses sale. Creative takes a notch out of Apple's marketshare. Apple's stock dips, ball starts rolling downhill. Apple hits 12.00 per share and everyone starts talking of the demise of Apple and their 3% market share.
Until the demand for iPods slows down, Apple needs to defend the hell out of ITMS and iPod. They need more deals like HP. That will maintain margins, and grow marketshare.
We all want Apple to stick it to everyone out there in the windows world, but MS did not get as big and as dominant as they are today by sharing technologies that, IMO, have been clearly ripped off. They went after those companies and hit them leagally or bought the company and squashed the technology.
We can't have it both ways.........

 

[MarcelV]

Why would Apple file a lawsuit...

I am very surprised with all the people that are wanting Real to collapse. First, what about competition, there's nothing wrong with, keeps Apple atop of everything and gives us more and better products. Do you really think Apple would have launched the 4G iPod this month if Sony wouldn't have launched their plans to introduce their PDE.
Second, Steve has mentioned over and over, the profit is in the palyer not the store. So, more outlets will give more choices for music, will sell more iPod's. Right? So, filing the lawsuit may work against him.
If it really works, it may open the eyes of Jobs Inc. to license FairPlay and guess what? You may see much more music for the iPod....
Don't forget the VCR lessons from the 70's and 80's. Best system, V2000 failed because no support of titles. Second best, Betamax, failed due to lack of movie titles. Worst system of all in video quality, VHS, won because a tremendous library of movie titles was available.

 

[e-coli]

Anyone think Apple will try a hostile takeover of Real? They have the stock price to do it.

Could get interesting.

 

[dernhelm]

I am confused. Let me get this straight.
Real plans to sell Harmony-encoded AAC files in its music store. As Fairplay stands now, Harmony can mimic Fairplay and thus the iPod could play these files.

At the same time, Real plans to license their technology so that iRiver's and the like can play their brand of protected AAC's. At the same time, all 100+ million songs purchased in iTunes will, since they have Harmony-compatible Fairplay, could be played on these other players, thereby unbinding people from iPods.

Simply because a Harmony-encoded AAC can play on an iPod, does not imply that a Fairplay-encoded AAC could play on an iRiver device. Harmony is not the same as Fairplay, it just looks enough like it to run on an iPod. I'm not saying that iRiver devices could not play Fairplay encoded files, just that the statements given here do not indicate that it is a given.

 

[AB2003]

What the DMCA actually says

‘‘(f) REVERSE ENGINEERING.—(1) Notwithstanding the provisions of subsection (a)(1)(A), a person who has lawfully obtained the right to use a copy of a computer program may circumvent a technological measure that effectively controls access to a particular portion of that program for the sole purpose of identifying and analyzing those elements of the program that are necessary to achieve interoperability of an independently created computer program with other programs, and that have not previously been readily available to the person engaging in the circumvention, to the extent any such acts of identification and analysis do not constitute infringement under this title.​

Sounds to me like RealNetworks not "lawfully obtained" the right to use a copy of a computer program (iTunes/FairPlay). I don't see how RealNetworks is going to sell this one in a court of law.

 

[SandyL]

Sounds to me like RealNetworks not "lawfully obtained" the right to use a copy of a computer program (iTunes/FairPlay). I don't see how RealNetworks is going to sell this one in a court of law.

If only RealNetworks had legally downloaded iTunes from apple.com instead of breaking into Steve Jobs' office and stealing his computer

Technically you don't even need iTunes or an iPod to add FairPlay support. FairPlay was reverse engineered over 6 months ago and an open source implementation has been available since.

Which is more likely?
1. RealNetworks reverse engineered FairPlay (hard).
2. RealNetworks had a look at an already existing open source implementation of FairPlay (easy).

 

[cl0r0x70]

‘‘(f) REVERSE ENGINEERING.—(1) Notwithstanding the provisions of subsection (a)(1)(A), a person who has lawfully obtained the right to use a copy of a computer program may circumvent a technological measure that effectively controls access to a particular portion of that program for the sole purpose of identifying and analyzing those elements of the program that are necessary to achieve interoperability of an independently created computer program with other programs, and that have not previously been readily available to the person engaging in the circumvention, to the extent any such acts of identification and analysis do not constitute infringement under this title.​

Sounds to me like RealNetworks not "lawfully obtained" the right to use a copy of a computer program (iTunes/FairPlay). I don't see how RealNetworks is going to sell this one in a court of law.

Your quote actually PROVES the legality of reverse engineering Fairplay.

 

[Stage]

Apple will just update the iPod to disable Real

There is no reason to expect Apple to stand for this. They want a locked system so they will undoubtedly try to fix the iPod so Real can't hook into the DRM decryption system for the Real files. I wouldn't invest in any Real music for my iPod just yet...

 

[cr2sh]

That's exactly what Harmony does not do. It allows files encoded by Real to be played on both WMA and Fair Play devices. It doesn't allow music purchased from iTMS, Napster or elsewhere to be converted to play on other devices. Any tracks you purchase from Apple will still be locked out from non-Apple players.

That's a shame.... my idea was a lot better.

 

[dylanemcgregor]

Wow, I've read every post in this thread and I can't believe I'm going to be the first one to say this. I'm sure it has been said many, many times before...I wouldn't buy a CD player that only played CDs from one store (no matter how cool the CD Player was). I'm not going to do it for an MP3 player either.

Some day, (and I'm betting sooner, rather than later), you will be able to buy any MP3 player and then download music from any store out there...and that's the way it should be. (IMNSHO)

-Dylan

 

[JGowan]

I like numbered-ordered things...

I can only imagine REAL making any money if

1) THE BEATLES decided to go exclusively with them
2) REAL offers their music for less than 99¢
3) If they offer the music at 160kbps AAC (or greater.)

If I were an iPod user considering putting REAL's AAC files on my unit, I would be thinking:

1) I love the IPOD, why use REAL?
2) I love iTunes, why use REAL?
3) I love the iTunes Music Store, why use REAL?
4) If I buy REAL music, there's no doubt that Apple will lock those songs out the next time they offer a firmware update.

"Well, just don't upgrade your firmware" some might offer.

But I can guarantee you that Apple will be offering a buttload of incentive on the next firmware release... possibly:

1) Better battery-management software, even for 3G ipods (something they didn't include on the last firmware update), to bring 3G owners up to 12 hour charges like the 4G boys will have.
2) More games.
3) Software that will turn the iPod into a AirportExpress REMOTE CONTROL.
4) Other Cool Stuff.

At that point, I have to decide whether it's worth losing the $20 worth of REAL music I bought to get all the new great software from Apple, thereby getting locked out of my REAL purchases... OR... to keep my $20 worth of REAL music and lose out on the cool new Apple stuff.

I think most people would just cut their losses and download all the new great software and just keep buying songs from the iTunes Music Store.

 

[beatle888]

Trekkie's response to one posters comment on how iTMS' interface design sucks.

If you're going to make some statement like that it'd sure help if you backed it up with some information on why you feel that way. Some how it's worked well enough for 100,000,000 songs to be sold and I personally haven't found it that hard to figure out...

Trekkie its true. Ive thought that many times while i was at iTMS. More thought needs to go into the Graphic Design. Dont get me wrong, i thinks its great but sometimes i just shake my head when something appears as though some executive on a pc did the layout. But in defense of iTMS it is the best out there.

 

[JGowan]

Steve Jobs always said music should be free, music should be for the people,...

Sir Giggles, you're living up to your name... I'm giggling my butt off on this. Where did you pull this information from? Your Royal Behind?