'Redacted' Hits Number 8 Spot in Mac App Store With Just $302 in First-Day Profit

[Analog Kid]

I think people have unreasonable expectations about the economics of application development. There are 80 million Macs out there. If every Mac is owned by a different person (they're not) and one out of every 1000 people needed Redacted (they probably don't), and every person who needed it had access to the MAS knew the application was there (both of which are probably untrue), then the developers total revenue would be 80e3*5*0.7=$280,000.

You would expect an unknown application's sales to grow slowly over time as people discover it, peak and fall off. You would expect a well established applications sales to spike on an update and taper to a steady state level of new customers. You wouldn't expect that a single release of a single use application will feed a developer indefinitely. This tells us next to nothing about the revenue of major applications, except that if they were ranked well below #8 on May 5th, they probably sold less than 100 copies on that day at whatever their selling price was.

I do think this is support for the argument that developers need to release paid updates periodically-- you can't sustain continued development at #30. You need to motivate repeat sales.

This sounds raisonnable for a one man team. But the developer is not really important. What is important is what it means for the future of Mac App development...
Now, imagine, instead of a single developer, this is a real company, doing high end softwares. A company like Omnigraffle for instance. They spend a year working on an application, involving developers, graphic designers, UX experts... And in the end, they rank #8 in the Mac App Store and their work earns them $100 a day - barely enough to pay the accountant of the company...


What this proves is that the Mac App Store, and ultimately Map apps development, is a one dollar-shop business, because the only viable applications are cheap useless ones. Just like in any one-dollar shop. Complex useful applications just cost too much and earn too little...

I think you're over-extrapolating from the available data... We know how many units one application sold at one spot on the rankings in one given day. We don't know the algorithm Apple uses for it's rankings other than that it is unit based rather than revenue based. We don't know what rank Omnigraffle, for example, peaked at, or how many units it sold at that level, or how many units it sells day to day.

If Omnigraffle sold 100 units in a day, as Redacted did, they would pull in about $7000 in revenue that day because it's a $100 app, not a $5 app. The Omnigroup also has many, rather expensive, applications available to support their company, so they aren't relying on one day's sales for one $5 application-- they keep working day after day to create and sell more complex products.

The question you need to ask is how many units would Omnigraffle sell through their own site if the MAS didn't exist?

We do know that the Omnigroup has access to multiple distribution channels, including their own well established website, and they continue to sell a version of their products through the App Store-- so there is value in it for high dollar applications.

I'd say you're missing the point. The point isn't about this poor developer and how hard he's having it; the point is how barren and forgotten the Mac AppStore is.

It doesn't have most of the key Apps most Mac users use every day - things like Skype, Office, etc. Some of the Apps which I used to own via the MAS have actually migrated away from it because of sandboxing restrictions which even close work with Apple couldn't solve (e.g. Coda).

I use Sublime Text quite a lot. If it was on the MAS, I would pay for it and the developer would earn a living from his hard work. As it is, it's too awkward for me to donate and I'm more comfortable being a customer than a donor. That developer hasn't seen any money from me, which is a shame because I pay for plenty of Apps which I value much less.

I don't know why he hasn't uploaded it, why Microsoft hasn't uploaded Skype, etc, but that's a big reason why the AppStore is so barren: it's irrelevant. New users shouldn't go to the MAS and expect to find the Apps to get them started.

It's a forgotten wasteland. It's missing many of the features from the other iTunes stores: you can't even gift Apps, for example. I tried to gift a copy of The Sims to my sister and there's just no way.

Yeah, the Mac AppStore is a barren place where nobody finds what they want and utility Apps like this one can enter the top charts. It's Apple's fault - they haven't kept the store up-to-date, and they haven't done enough to ensure that new users can quickly get themselves setup with the most commonly used Mac applications straight from one place.

It's a forgotten wasteland, but if Sublime Text distributed through it you would instantly pay a developer whose product you could pay for through other means (I have) but have been using for free.

I think you might be stretching what little information there is in this article to argue for a pet cause. There are challenges to selling through MAS, no doubt. Cheetah3D recently stopped distributing through the channel because sandboxing wasn't just an ideological barrier for the developer, but technically prevented him from being able to use standard 3D file formats. That's a shame-- I'd rather pay full freight to buy it through MAS than get a discounted upgrade through another channel. I think the lack of discounted upgrades is probably going to be a long term challenge as well.

But then the point is that the MAS isn't the only distribution channel for Mac applications the way it is for iOS applications. Many developers sell through MAS and other channels in parallel (Omnigroup being one example). Some go through hurdles to provide two different versions, and work arounds for the limitations. Some choose not to distribute through MAS at all.

MAS does offer value to customers and developers though. I much prefer to buy through MAS when I can because I trust the billing system, know the license terms, know the app has been at least casually reviewed and must meet certain development guidelines for security, and can update through a common interface. Those four things are very important to me. How many copies of Redacted do you think would have sold through their site without the attention the MAS and this story generated for them?

Even with this story: Redacted hit #2 yesterday, and is currently at #3. Would they have sold as many units if people had to go to a private site and enter all their payment information to make a $5 purchase? I'd guess not-- the sales are amplified by the simplicity of MAS.

 

[xJus10x]

I see you have vast experience operating a small business.

A developer living in a studio apartment isn't quite the same as operating a small business.

 

[Macphun Team]

Few things we can add.

It is still surprising how many people think that just putting an app on the App Store/Mac App Store/iTunes will drive revenues. Here's what Macphun learned, having more apps in TOP paid photo category in US, than any other company in the world.

- US Charts and Global App Store revenues are not the same. While US is the biggest market, Macphun now gets around 70% of revenues from other countries, like France, UK, Germany, Australia and other. So it is better to keep the software in TOP 50 in different markets, than to simply rely on US Traffic.
- Apps that cost less than $10 will never be able to boast big revenue numbers on the Mac App Store. $15 - $25 is usually a good pricing strategy, the problem is that very few apps are really worth that.
- It's not about making money on the day of the launch or the featured week, it's about grow sales month after month.
- You do need to sell direct (through your web-site) if your app's price is at least $20 (better $40). If the price is less, it will be hard to get positive ROI from advertising and PR, so it's better to rely on the organic App Store traffic.

Hope that helps

 

[MagnusVonMagnum]

It's probably for the amazing weather

That might apply to San Francisco, but certainly not somewhere like NYC, which also has sky high costs of living.

access to world class cultural experiences

Yeah, I don't know what that means. Every manner of restaurant and ethnic group is within 70 miles of here and most have their own festivals, etc. during the year and two more major cities within 150 miles in either direction. And the restaurants are half the price of places like NYC (I reference NYC because I've been there; I've never been to San Francisco, but I have been to LA, Phoenix, Dallas, Oklahoma City, Chicago, Atlanta, Orlando, Miami, Seattle, Baltimore, Pittsburgh, Cincinnati, DC, Juneau and Toronto, among others. Only Phoenix has ever compelled me to move there but then try visiting there in the summer and you change your mind pretty fast.

proximity and access to the top schools and colleges, public transit, diversity, professional networking opportunities, and vastly higher wages.

Top schools in price or education? I find most people over pay for the same knowledge. Besides, unless you work at one of those schools, you don't need to live by one except while attending. Public transit isn't needed if you aren't living in crowded land (e.g. NYC needs a subway because it takes an over an hour just to get from the middle of Manhattan to the financial district during the middle of the day. I can get to Pittsburgh or Cleveland in that time from here. Vastly higher wages? So what? Like I already pointed out, you can make $150k and be POOOOOR in NYC or San Francisco. It means NOTHING if your cost of living is 10x higher than the Mid-West. I'd rather live like a king making $80k in Ohio than $160k in New York living like a pauper. Still, I probably should have spent more time with programming. There was pretty good opportunities writing cheap iOS apps early on for extra income.

Is over 50% of our workforce capable of writing software?

I had programming myself (I spent a year and a half in Computer Science before I realized I was bored out of my mind and moved to hardware (electronic engineering) instead. Frankly, programming was far easier, but back in the '90s it was pretty damn dry to study at a University (I still took assembly and PLC programming in electronic engineering). It'd be more interesting now, but then you've got places like India to compete against these days (e.g. my brother did get a degree in Computer Science; he's now in management instead with General Electric as the programming job he had there moved to India around the Y2k time). Basically, companies need me HERE to fix or install their hardware. They don't need a programmer here to do much of anything these days. It's cheaper to hire people overseas. I've heard horror stories about people working at Electronic Arts on these big gaming projects (i.e. it doesn't matter if you're making big money if you have NO LIFE and NO TIME to enjoy any of it?) I get 5 weeks off a year that I can stack up to three months plus sick leave and good health care and pay less than $500 a month on a 2100 sq. ft mortgage as I mentioned before. Screw the big cities unless you're making multiple hundreds of thousands or millions; then maybe it's worth it. I can go watch a game in Pittsburgh or eat a restaurant there or visit the museum an be there in about an hour. I don't need to live IN Pittsburgh (where the cost of living goes up) to enjoy a world class football game there.

You're making the mistake of mixing income you gain when working in a company and revenues from your own company... This is not the same thing at all..
A salary is something that is constant each month and that ends up in your pocket. Moreover, you get paid when you're on holidays, when you're sick, when you're retired.
A revenue from a business is something you will have a lot to substract from before it ends up in your pockets : revenue taxes, insurance, money for equipment, savings to prepare for holidays, sick days and retirement... When you're self employed, you have to earn around twice what you made as an employee to keep the same standard of living...

All the more reason to NOT live somewhere like San Francisco, IMO.

 

[faustfire]

This is EXACTLY why I believe that ALL software should be free, with exceptions for business-specific enterprise software.

Yea, I'm sure everyone would continue to write software for the sheer fun of it.

 

[Digital Skunk]

It's probably for the amazing weather, access to world class cultural experiences, proximity and access to the top schools and colleges, public transit, diversity, professional networking opportunities, and vastly higher wages.

What country is this?

Because if you're talking about any of the cities in America or Europe then this isn't the case. You might find one . . . . . maybe two of those aspects in any given city, but any more than that and it's a dream utopia.

You can do this in Preview for crying out loud.

This is the meat and potatoes of this article if you ask me. $5 for a useless applications designed by a guy that probably doesn't know the first thing about any of the standard apps that come free on the Mac is just crazy.

Truth is, you can block out an image with ANY of the iOS / MacOSX apps that come free and standard.

I hope this guy doesn't think he coded the next big thing.

And Apple really should redo the way apps make it to the top spot, or put in a little background. It'd be discouraging to see a really good app fall because 89 people got suckered into buying Redacted.

 

[Analog Kid]

- You do need to sell direct (through your web-site) if your app's price is at least $20 (better $40). If the price is less, it will be hard to get positive ROI from advertising and PR, so it's better to rely on the organic App Store traffic.

Hope that helps

Thanks for the insight. You guys do seem to have a more sophisticated understanding of the mechanics than most.

Can you explain that last bullet a bit more? Why do you need to sell direct?

 

[beaker7]

it's a dream utopia .

I wouldn't go quite that far, but it's definitely nice.

 

[Lictor]

Yeah, I don't know what that means. Every manner of restaurant and ethnic group is within 70 miles of here

70 miles is a huge distance ! It means that to do anything, you have to take your car and drive... And a car is the worst way to move around : you're stick in a tiny space and you must keep your attention focussed on doing something as dumb as driving.
I don't drive. Actually, I don't have a car or even a driving license. If I want to eat asian, indian or whatever food, I just walk for a few minutes. Same for going to the cinema. And if I want to go farther, I just take my bike. Likewise, I can take most of my doctors appointment within the week, while people in some part of the country have waiting lists up to 6 months, because doctors just don't want to live in the country. That's the real point of a city, not being dependant on cars and having everything in abundance within walking distance.
Actually, if I compare the cost of living in an inner city with friends that are in the extended suburbs, it's cheaper for me : they need two cars when we have none (so, no gas, no insurance, no repairs), they need to heat their house (it's part of my rent)...

And the restaurants are half the price of places like NYC

It's tricky because tourists restaurants are overpriced everywhere. I know I can eat for cheap in my own city. I know I managed to eat for cheap in both SF and NYC.

Public transit isn't needed if you aren't living in crowded land

Public transit is needed because it's way better than cars! While you're wasting time driving, I can read, I can work, I can daydream... All the while producing very little pollution and CO2.
Moreover, if you live in a very dense city, you don't have to move much, so public transport (or bike) is very fast - it's pretty rare that I spend more than 30 minutes there or travel more than 5km by bike. But it's true that American cities, NYC included, are not very dense so they tend to be very big and this slows moving around.

Like I already pointed out, you can make $150k and be POOOOOR in NYC or San Francisco. It means NOTHING if your cost of living is 10x higher than the Mid-West.

Since it doesn't matter where you work from when developing apps, just move to Berlin. You get a city as cool as NYC, and probably cooler, but with rents and cost of living like in Ohio...

I can go watch a game in Pittsburgh or eat a restaurant there or visit the museum an be there in about an hour. I don't need to live IN Pittsburgh (where the cost of living goes up) to enjoy a world class football game there.

One hour to go, and another to return... That's a lot. Essentially, you can't do anything on impulse, you have to plan everything. I lived at 5 minutes walking distance from a cinema - this essentially means I went there as I could watch TV (I have an unlimited access card, so I literally went daily). You can't do that with a 2 hours round trip. Likewise, if I fancy some Japanese or Indian food, I can just go buy some, it's a 5 minutes business.

This is really a different perspective on how you live. I do enjoy going to the countryside from time to time. But being dependant on a car (especially since I don't drive) is just not something I could do full time...

 

[Michael Goff]

This is EXACTLY why I believe that ALL software should be free, with exceptions for business-specific enterprise software.

It is virtually impossible to make a living from selling your independent software, and by charging for it you are prohibiting many people from using it who could really benefit from it. The more people who use it, the better you should feel, and the more it will spread.

It's like music. I write music as a hobby, and sure I could put it on iTunes or whatever and charge 99 cents per song. But why would anyone listen to it? I would much rather upload it for free to Youtube so that as many people can enjoy it as possible. When it's up there for free, people can listen and share it with their friends, and maybe I could gain a following. But if I only charged for it, maybe one or two people would pay for it and that would be the end of it. I'd have no fans and maybe two dollars.

And their bills should be paid with the good will of the people who downloaded their software!

 

[jace88]

Clearly it's not worth anyone's time to develop for the desktop App Store to make a living on the application sales.

We have to remember that this is how it happened on the iOS App Store before people got used to the idea of paying for mobile apps. That being said it was a new thing altogether whereas there are still plenty of alternatives to the Mac one.

----------

See my post above. The Dutch government offers one. The app is bilingual (Dutch / English). Not sure if you can download it from the Australian App Store though. But maybe it's worth the try.

https://itunes.apple.com/nl/app/kopieid/id932970330?mt=8

PS Well, it's at the very least available in the US App Store.

https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/kopieid/id932970330?mt=8

Thanks for the tip. I tried it but it seems to only work for scanning photos with the camera rather than accessing camera roll photos.

I know it sounds lame but the reason I care for this is I like to take photos of nice cars I happen to see and usually owners want to blur or black out the plates. Rather than waiting to do it on a PC I just want an easy way to do it on the iPhone.

 

[OllyW]

Anyone think MacRumors would be willing to share how many apps IT sells from its affiliate link pieces like this?

It isn't a sponsored article, it would be disclosed if it was.

Are news stories really advertising in disguise?

No. We always identify our promotional arrangements, and we don't post undisclosed paid stories.

https://macrumors.zendesk.com/hc/en...-news-stories-really-advertising-in-disguise-

 

[springsup]

It's a forgotten wasteland, but if Sublime Text distributed through it you would instantly pay a developer whose product you could pay for through other means (I have) but have been using for free.

I think you might be stretching what little information there is in this article to argue for a pet cause. There are challenges to selling through MAS, no doubt. Cheetah3D recently stopped distributing through the channel because sandboxing wasn't just an ideological barrier for the developer, but technically prevented him from being able to use standard 3D file formats. That's a shame-- I'd rather pay full freight to buy it through MAS than get a discounted upgrade through another channel. I think the lack of discounted upgrades is probably going to be a long term challenge as well.

But then the point is that the MAS isn't the only distribution channel for Mac applications the way it is for iOS applications. Many developers sell through MAS and other channels in parallel (Omnigroup being one example). Some go through hurdles to provide two different versions, and work arounds for the limitations. Some choose not to distribute through MAS at all.

MAS does offer value to customers and developers though. I much prefer to buy through MAS when I can because I trust the billing system, know the license terms, know the app has been at least casually reviewed and must meet certain development guidelines for security, and can update through a common interface. Those four things are very important to me. How many copies of Redacted do you think would have sold through their site without the attention the MAS and this story generated for them?

Even with this story: Redacted hit #2 yesterday, and is currently at #3. Would they have sold as many units if people had to go to a private site and enter all their payment information to make a $5 purchase? I'd guess not-- the sales are amplified by the simplicity of MAS.

Yes, I would instantly buy Sublime Text from the Mac AppStore. You said it yourself: you'd rather buy Cheetah3D through the MAS because it's just my preferred channel. It's official, it has Apple's reputation backing it up, it organises your keys and purchases with your AppleID and guarantees that the binary will continue to be available and the license will be valid for all of your Macs, it automatically updates my applications without me bothering about it, it has a payment infrastructure I trust and which safeguards my privacy; All of those things you also mentioned. It's still a great idea.

Even if Apps have other ways of being purchased, the MAS is the best way for me, the consumer. I'll vote with my wallet and withhold my purchase of Sublime Text until they launch on the MAS. I do contact Apps which I would like on the store - ST, Skype, etc, and tell them I'd like them to be on the MAS. That's as much as any single customer can do.

There are technical limitations involved with the MAS (sandboxing), but I can't understand how that's an insurmountable challenge. If Apple has set overly harsh sandboxing limitations, they can ease them or introduce some way for users to agree to easing them for a particular application (in the same way we agree to allow apps access to other privileged data, such as location information). Having Apps leave the MAS is a dire situation and Apple has to act to rectify it.

Apple seems to have totally forgotten about the MAS, though: like I said, you can't even gift applications to other people.

And surely sandboxing isn't what's preventing Skype from being on the MAS? Apple has to reach out and get them on board.

 

[Lictor]

Yes, I would instantly buy Sublime Text from the Mac AppStore.

I would not. If you buy direct from Sublime Text, you have a personal licence. It's not tied to a computer or an OS, it's tied to you. If you have three computers and three OS, you only need one licence. Sublime Text works on OSX, Windows and Linux, I have all three at home and I use it on all three. A licence through the MAS would only be useful for OSX and thus a lot more limited.
Moreover, Apple stores handle major upgrades badly for existing customers, it always involves complex workarounds to issue a major upgrade that is at a discount for existing customers. So, you might end up paying more on the MAS than direct.

 

[Fox Fisher]

You can do the same thing this app does with Preview app on mac. No need to install another software and it's easy as 1 2 3.

 

[nick42983]

If this were 1920 you'd have an argument.

Where do you live, Manhattan or San Francisco? I can live very comfortably for $20k per year in Eastern Europe, in an awesome city, I don't own a car and my quality of life is infinitely better than when I was living in downtown Palo Alto in the heart of Silicon Valley, working at Stanford. Sounds like you're the one living in the wage slave mentality of the 1920s.

----------

I see you have vast experience operating a small business.

Thanks Rog, my small business is covering my expenses while I live in an awesome city in Eastern Europe, I don't drive and take stellar public transit everywhere, I travel back to California several times a year along with other countries, I date beautiful Polish and Ukrainian girls and all for about $20k, how's your job treating you?

 

[nick42983]

Are you kidding me? $36500 a year? That's $3000 a month, before taxes. My rent is almost that much for a tiny 1-bedroom. And if you have a small business, you have to buy your own health insurance, at a much elevated cost. Besides you're not going to be in the top 10 apps for a very long time.

Not kidding cppguy, my expenses are ~$20k per year, living in Poland. I used to pay $1000/month for a 10'x16' "studio" in Palo Alto, now I pay $600/month for a spacious, 1-bedroom in downtown Warsaw in a prime location (2 of the best sushi restaurants in town, out of 200+, are on my block). No car, awesome public transit.

I don't make apps but my small business covers my expenses. It's crazy to pay nearly $3k for rent unless you're making at least $200k. Places like San Francisco, Manhattan, etc. are outrageously overpriced, other places in the US and the world provide much better value. God bless the internet that working in a cubicle for a corporation, or for any ******* boss is purely a choice these days.

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Very unlikely over the long haul average.

The first few days earnings for a new app, or just after a big PR boost, has very little to do with how much the app can bring in per day on average.

The typical app's revenue can very quickly drop down to a few bucks per day, maybe enough to pay for a cup of coffee... and even that requires luck for a small indie OS X app developer.

Point taken, making $302 in a day as the 8th-ranked, paid app is a great way to discourage people from making apps. People will still do it, but I'd like to know what proportion of submitted and accepted apps never recoup their development costs or just barely make a profit that wasn't worth the effort, 70%?

----------

Pretend that he didn't tell you what the app did because it's irrelevant to this conversation.

He sold product X and it went to #8 and he only made a few hundred dollars. That says a lot about the size of the market. You won't attract too many companies to your platform if #8 doesn't generate more revenue.

I think the companies will still be there, but individuals and small groups of developers will be discouraged. Big players like Evernote for example don't charge for the app, they use it to attract subscribers to their service.

----------

I wouldn't get out of bed for $200 a day.

That's odd, I live an awesome lifestyle for about $50-60 a day. Come on Steve you can do better too!

----------

The point isn't really that...it is the fact that 50 sales gets you in the top 10 apps in the entire mac app store. There is no way the tail for this app is going to be $100 a day, most likely it will be around $40-$50. For a single dev and a small app that is decent.

But for a small company 50 sales a day at $5 a pop will barely afford a single developers salary. The point is the MAS can't sustain companies.

Do you think people will really stop developing though? Of course not. Apps won't sustain them but they're integral to their marketing. To paraphrase Jim Rohn "Don't wish it was easier to make money in the App Store, wish your business model was better."

 

[iChrist]

It's true. These days everyone has entitlement mentality of "FREE".

Thanks to Apple's lack of management of the App Store. All they care about is a ridiculously high number to present in Keynotes. Hey we have a billion apps. And they are all crap. Apple promotes free crapware instead of legit developers.

And now they want to kill Spotify by siding with record companies. Independent minds have no place in the Apple ecosystem. It's for massive developers like EA.

 

[elmateo487]

most people in the world would do backflips to make $300 in a day.

He didn't spend 1 day making this app.....

It's not like working at McDonalds man.

 

[Lictor]

Do you think people will really stop developing though?

Good programmers that can earn more working for corporations will stop developing for the one-dollar store... Or if they want to stay independent, they will develop elsewhere where more money can be earned...
Bad programmers, who lack the imagination or competence to do something else will off course continue to develop bad applications for the Mac App Store... And that will be the equivalent of working at MacDonald's in the programming world.

 

[AlecZ]

This is EXACTLY why I believe that ALL software should be free, with exceptions for business-specific enterprise software.

"Free as in beer" or "free as in freedom"?

----------

He didn't spend 1 day making this app.....

It's not like working at McDonalds man.

Yeah, he probably made less than minimum wage if you take all the development time into account. Those who are paid to build apps for others, on the other hand, can make a couple thousand dollars in a week. Independent projects only seem good as a personal hobby and to get noticed by potential employers.

 

[MagnusVonMagnum]

70 miles is a huge distance !

That includes two major cities that I'm referring to (there's plenty of nice restaurants within a couple of miles of my house for that matter, but every manner of ethnic and famous restaurant alike are within that distance). And that distance is NOTHING. I can get there in under an hour easy and have a nice scenic drive getting there. I have four casinos within an hour's drive and I don't live anywhere near Vegas. My point is when I was in New York, it took an hour just to get halfway across Manhattan above ground (endless traffic and lights). Now pick the right streets and the right time of day and maybe that would be a 20-30 minutes, but you're still limited by city streets rather than 65-70mph freeways.

It means that to do anything, you have to take your car and drive...

Yeah, that's what cars are generally for.

The point is I'm not limited to the local area. I can even drive to New York in about 7 hours. I can drive all over the continent at any time without having to pay for expensive air fare or other means.

But then there's public cars like taxis. Boy oh boy are taxis fun cars to ride around in New York. My last fare there the guy whined the entire time I wasn't going far enough for him (I just got back off a cruise and needed to put my luggage into storage for the day and it was only a few blocks away). Ride on the subway? With a bunch of rude and smelly people who despise pretty much everyone around them? That's your public transportation for you. Awful. Just freaking AWFUL.

And a car is the worst way to move around : you're stick in a tiny space and you must keep your attention focussed on doing something as dumb as driving.

As dumb as driving? I can see we live in two different Universes by that comment alone. Some of us (that know how) actually LIKE to drive, especially in a nice sports car with a manual transmission.

I don't drive. Actually, I don't have a car or even a driving license. If I want to eat asian, indian or whatever food, I just walk for a few minutes. Same

And I drive a few minutes and it's air conditioned. Given how much less I pay for food around here than a big city, I'd say that more than covers a few ounces of gas.

for going to the cinema. And if I want to go farther, I just take my bike.

I have a bike too. I load it onto my Subaru and take it 5 miles to the nearest trail and I can bike all across NE Ohio on safe bike path out of traffic.

Likewise, I can take most of my doctors appointment within the week, while people in some part of the country have waiting lists up to 6 months,

I can get into my regular doctor within a day or two (he's less than 1 mile from here; I could walk there if I had to) and there's an immediate care place AND a hospital ONE block over (about a half mile via sidewalk). There's a pizza place and an Asian eatery less than a mile from here as well. I could walk there if I wanted to (and a mall less than 3 miles from here). Why would I want to?

because doctors just don't want to live in the country. That's the real point

I do NOT live "in the country". I live in a suburb of a smaller city that's within an hour or so of two giant cities. The "country", though is only a few miles away if I want to go bike in it. Good luck getting TO the country in a major metro area like San Francisco or New York. It'd take you all day just to get there whereas I can drive to a major city in about an hour and a smaller city in less than 15 minutes and all around the townships in a couple of minutes and housing still costs a tiny tiny FRACTION of what it costs to own that tiny tiny 1 bedroom apartment in San Francisco that costs $3000 a month. I could eat out at a steak house every single day with filet Mignon and still be $1600 ahead of just the rent of that guy from San Francisco at the end the month with a 2100 sq. ft house.

of a city, not being dependant on cars and having everything in abundance within walking distance.

No, you're still dependent on OTHER PEOPLE'S VEHICLES. In other words, if tons and tons of big trucks didn't bring food and other supplies into your city, you'd be up the creek without a paddle. I can at least grow a garden in my back yard and drive quickly to farmer's markets and other places. One major traffic jam (say an earthquake in San Francisco) and one would be SCREWED (and likely dead). Thanks, but no thanks. There's not much in the way of earthquakes in Ohio. There's no hurricanes here and very few tornadoes. Our biggest problem is pot holes after a harsh winter for a couple of months.

Actually, if I compare the cost of living in an inner city with friends that are in the extended suburbs, it's cheaper for me : they need two cars when we have none (so, no gas, no insurance, no repairs), they need to heat their house (it's part of my rent)...

That's probably because those extended suburbs are still very near a high priced city. With mortgage, food, utilities, property taxes and car all accounted for, I estimate my total costs are still less than half of JUST that San Francisco 1-bedroom apartment mentioned earlier that cost around $3000 a month (no food there and not every utility) and I have a 2100 sq. ft house, not a tiny 1-bedroom apartment.

It's tricky because tourists restaurants are overpriced everywhere. I know I can eat for cheap in my own city. I know I managed to eat for cheap in both SF and NYC.

Finding a place to "eat cheap" is not the same as eating the same class of food (e.g. Jewish deli vs. Jewish deli) for less. Delis are a dying breed in NYC because they can't afford to exist with the OUTRAGEOUS rents being charged. That issue doesn't exist here. Kravitz Deli here is half the price of the 'famous' Katz and has better food.

Public transit is needed because it's way better than cars! While you're wasting time driving, I can read, I can work, I can daydream... All the while producing very little pollution and CO2.

Yes, some big smelly guy sitting next to you on the subway is far superior to a nice air-conditioned private ride with a nice 8-speaker sound system.

Since it doesn't matter where you work from when developing apps, just move to Berlin. You get a city as cool as NYC, and probably cooler, but with rents and cost of living like in Ohio...

I used to live in a Berlin...Ohio with lakefront property. Boats...sweet boats. I suppose those are a waste of time too. After all, instead of fishing or flying along the lake on a speed boat or jet ski, you could be day-dreaming and playing with your iPhone next to that smelly guy on the bus.

This is really a different perspective on how you live. I do enjoy going to the countryside from time to time. But being dependant on a car (especially since I don't drive) is just not something I could do full time...

Yeah, it would help to learn to drive first. Try it. You might like it (but I doubt you could afford to park it in your city regardless whereas I can park two at my house in a nice heated garage).

I admit it would be nice to be near the ocean sometimes, but the outrageous property prices don't justify it (and there's earthquake potential on the West coast and hurricane potential on the East coast).

 

[preyan]

Wouldn't revenue be the right word here ?

Profit is the right word His revenue was $452

 

[Lictor]

And that distance is NOTHING. I can get there in under an hour easy and have a nice scenic drive getting there.

We do have a very different perception of time. I consider one hour to be a long time, especially if you consider the return trip will be another hour.
Distances tends to be distorted when you have a car - drivers tend to take it for very small trips where people in cities would just walk. Besides, Americans tend also to have a different perception of distance. For instance, I need 1h20 by train to visit the next European capital - where I can experiment different food, culture, architecture and language. So, spending one hour just to go to the cinema...

As far as scenic drive, I have scenic walking and biking. Living in a city that has extensive areas classified as Unesco World Heritage has its advantages...

"My point is when I was in New York, it took an hour just to get halfway across Manhattan above ground (endless traffic and lights)."

Yes, cars are really not meant for cities. I'm curious at how many new-yorkers actually own a car. Here, only 50% of people have a car - and only 60% of them use it on a daily basis.
Cars are actually the slowest mean of transportation here - they come far below public transportation, bike and even rollers... And I you take into account parking time, I think walking is actually faster too...

"I can drive all over the continent at any time without having to pay for expensive air fare or other means."

You're still paying for the car, the gas, the insurance... If you travel alone, that's not that cheap...

"But then there's public cars like taxis."

Why would anyone take a taxi ? I take one maybe twice a year. And we now have municipal electric cars you can rent and drive by the half hour and return anywhere. We also have bikes you can rent and return anywhere. And we have Über. This leaves little reasons to use a taxi.

"Ride on the subway? With a bunch of rude and smelly people who despise pretty much everyone around them? That's your public transportation for you."

You're being prejudiced... Public transport is actually pretty fun, you get to stare at all kind of people, it's an interesting social experience. Besides, you can read, watch movies on your iPad, work, daydream... All things that would kill you if you did them in your car...
Anyway, I don't take public transports much anymore. I mostly walk and use my bike. Living in one of the densest city in the world has its perks : mostly everything is within one hour distance either walking or biking.
The impact of doing one to two hours a day of exercising is pretty impressive on my health too...

"As dumb as driving? I can see we live in two different Universes by that comment alone. Some of us (that know how) actually LIKE to drive, especially in a nice sports car with a manual transmission."

Yup, we do. I don't have a car. In fact, I don't have my driving license either, it's too expensive and I always had more useful or fun things to do with my money.
Driving can be fun - in a video game or in a kart circuit. In real life ? Not so much. I don't see where a manual transmission improves fun. But then, manual transmission is all we have here, automatic transmissions are a novelty that never really had any success.
Driving is an activity that require all your attention - whether you're tired or bored, whether you didn't sleep or are ill. And if you don't give it your full attention, you're potentially dead. I'm amazed we still do that in the 21st century.

"Given how much less I pay for food around here than a big city, I'd say that more than covers a few ounces of gas."

I just was on holidays in the countryside, near the sea. I was amazed that food was actually more expensive there. But I guess that's a quirk of being in a centralized country : all the food tends to move to the capital where wholesalers buy it and then moves it back to the country.

"The "country", though is only a few miles away if I want to go bike in it. Good luck getting TO the country in a major metro area like San Francisco or New York."

Yes, because your cities are surrounded by handless suburbs and your urbanism is really organized around cars. That's a real design flaw nowadays. The USA has a huge territory and as a result everything is far away.
I do have a pretty large park 5 minutes from my home - just like new-yorkers have Central Park. And I'm less than one hour away in public transport from several forests. I can get to the country in around one hour in train and to the sea in around 2-3 hours.

"No, you're still dependent on OTHER PEOPLE'S VEHICLES. In other words, if tons and tons of big trucks didn't bring food and other supplies into your city, you'd be up the creek without a paddle."

Actually, not that much. I live in a city with a strong ecological minority. As a result, they have discouraged the use of trucks. Really big trucks are not allowed to enter the city for instance. A lot of supplies now come by train and by waterway, trunks tend to be only used for the last kilometers. This is more efficient and it generates less pollution.

"That's probably because those extended suburbs are still very near a high priced city. With mortgage, food, utilities, property taxes and car all accounted for, I estimate my total costs are still less than half of JUST that San Francisco 1-bedroom apartment mentioned earlier that cost around $3000 a month"

You're comparing with the most expensive city in the USA... I live in the most expensive city of the country, but nowhere near the prices of SF - I pay 1300€ a month for 60 m^2, heating and hot water included. That's a lot, but nowhere as insane as SF !
The difference in price mainly came from cars : a couple must have two cars, with insurance, gas (a lot more expensive here), repairs... Likewise, heating tend to cost a lot for individual homes whereas it's "free" in my case.

"Finding a place to "eat cheap" is not the same as eating the same class of food (e.g. Jewish deli vs. Jewish deli) for less"


Even with the same class, tourists are reaped off. For instance, I can eat for around half the price just by moving outside of the really touristy spots. And the quality is often much better too.
Moreover, people here eat lunch in restaurants, so if you go to areas where people actually work you have very decent prices at lunch time. In the country and smaller cities, people just eat at home or at the office for lunch. So the prices are often higher.

"Yes, some big smelly guy sitting next to you on the subway is far superior to a nice air-conditioned private ride"

Well, sometimes, I get to sit next to a gorgeous and elegant woman too... This beats your car


"Yeah, it would help to learn to drive first. Try it. You might like it (but I doubt you could afford to park it in your city"

Oh, I mostly know how to drive, I learnt with my parents when I was a kid in the countryside. It's totally illegal, but many kids there did that back then. I just never felt the need to fork 2000€ to pass my license, I would rather buy a new computer or an Apple Watch instead, feels more useful.
I have a free parking in my building. Actually, a friend parks her car here and we can use it whenever we want (my girlfriend has her driving licence). But it's mostly collecting dust, we just used it once to go on holidays.

I admit it would be nice to be near the ocean sometimes, but the outrageous property prices don't justify it

Move to Europe You could buy several mansions in a country like Greece for the price of your house, no hurricanes, no earthquake and the mediterranean sea is very tame...

 

[melling]

how is it irrelevant? the app is stupid. full stop.

It's irrelevant because what the app does has no bearing on the conversation. Wasting everyone's time by offering your opinion adds no value. Try to keep up on the salient points.