I see - so Apple's competition is from products which don't even exist yet. By this logic, there is always infinite competition from all angles, because hypotheticals carry the same weight as what actually exists. Glad we got the silliness out of the way.
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Remaining iPad Competitors
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I see - so Apple's competition is from products which don't even exist yet. By this logic, there is always infinite competition from all angles, because hypotheticals carry the same weight as what actually exists. Glad we got the silliness out of the way.
It was supposed to be "the one". That didn't happen. I expect RIM to kick the bucket next. There will always be Android tablets, but I really cannot see them making a major impact - at least not the same as it did to the smartphone market. Windows 8 doesn't look severely promising either.
Supposed to be "the one" by whom? HP advertising hype? Pundits who make their living writing "man bites dog" articles? Palm was in desperate straits when HP purchased them. The new management at HP (who had nothing to do with purchasing Palm) set aggressive sales numbers for an unfinished product (probably) to kill it off. After all, Apoltheker (CEO since Sept 2010) had no real interest in validating the decision of his predecessor to purchase a consumer electronics firm while leading the company in a completely different direction.
I don't see Android tablets coming on nearly as strong as phones, either. Mainly because in the phone market (US) consumers buy from (and are held hostage by) carriers. The fact that no carrier (esp Verizon) could sell the iPhone when the first Droid came along had a lot to do with the explosive growth of Android phones. On the other hand, despite the downside of OS version splintering, Android has benefited tremendously by the wide variety of phone options compared to the Model T (any color as long as it's black) philosophy of the iPhone. If Android tablets can differentiate themselves both from each other and from the iPad sufficiently, the total sales of the tablets will, I suspect, grow very nicely.
Another factor in all this is cost to the consumer. In the phone market carriers typically subsidize hardware purchases with long-term carrier contracts. That, combined with the lower cost of a phone compared to a tablet, means consumers are willing to buy a new shiny toy every two years, especially if it means they can do so for less than $200.
That same business model hasn't taken hold in the tablet market, mainly because carriers' data capacity hasn't caught up with current demand so the incentives are to control rather than increase demand. But if network capacity catches up and surpasses demand, phone carriers may opt to subsidize the purchase of tablets as heavily as they do phones.
Would you buy a 10" tablet from Verizon for, say, $300 with a two year voice and data commitment? Many consumers would. And that despite the fact that they'd spend far more in the long run to do so.
Android is still in the game. if they can continue to attract developers to write apps, that will perhaps narrow the huge disparity between ios and android; they'll never be on equal footing on sheer app statistics, but that's a fool venture. if they can demonstrate a couple of quality apps that work in most of the key areas, android will be able to carve out their niche, albeit smaller, in the market.
not much has been discussed with the upcoming Sony tablet on this forum. my initial thought was that they had a dim chance, but their gaming subscriber numbers are huge. if they can leverage the PS owners to climb aboard to their tablet (there was talk about giving the tablet the ability to play PS games along with opening their own app store), they could make their mark.
Microsoft is certainly capable of developing a good tablet OS if they want to put their resources into it and if they could put out a SDK which makes it possible to port/reuse a lot of Windows code, they could become a contender on the inside track. if you make it easy for developers to adapt/write their existing Windows software to the tablet version, that could jumpstart MS to bridge the app gap a lot sooner than what we're seeing with the Android platform.
not much has been discussed with the upcoming Sony tablet on this forum. my initial thought was that they had a dim chance, but their gaming subscriber numbers are huge. if they can leverage the PS owners to climb aboard to their tablet (there was talk about giving the tablet the ability to play PS games along with opening their own app store), they could make their mark.
Microsoft is certainly capable of developing a good tablet OS if they want to put their resources into it and if they could put out a SDK which makes it possible to port/reuse a lot of Windows code, they could become a contender on the inside track. if you make it easy for developers to adapt/write their existing Windows software to the tablet version, that could jumpstart MS to bridge the app gap a lot sooner than what we're seeing with the Android platform.
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There is no using logic or reasoning with jsh01010101. He thinks that a company would invest billions into a product with the intention of the product failing and knowing they were going to exit the market anyway. He also thinks iPads aren't taking away from PC sales and all sorts of other weird things.
I truly feel bad for the HP/TP/webOS fanboys that *still* can't admit their favorite platform was a failure, even though HP themselves has admitted it and actually is exiting the market. Wow.
RIM/QNX, Android and Windows 8 - are the only possible iPad competitors in 2012-2013...
However, Samsung/Bada may actually be added to the list, we'll see. Samsung is good with hardware and Bada is a decent OS.
However, Samsung/Bada may actually be added to the list, we'll see. Samsung is good with hardware and Bada is a decent OS.
This is never going to take hold. I think last year it was the Galaxy Tab that was going to be subsidized by carriers and carry a data plan. That fell flat.
In an age where one can tether data from a phone to any other device and people already spending thousands of dollars over two years on a phone, they are not going to want another contract attached to an expensive data plan.
Very few customers are going to purchase a 10" tablet for $300 with a 2 year commitment when they already have a 2 year commitment and can buy a tablet today for $499 and never worry about it.
There are a couple of problems with data plans and tablets
1. They are a rip off. ~$30 a month for a plan with a 2GB limit that only ONE device can use.
2. The two year commitment. Not only are you locked in to a data plan for two years, but you are also stuck with an obsolete device after the first year.
3. No voice option. You might be able to convince someone to pay the extra monthly fee if they could use either the phone or the tablet for phone calls (the tablets have stronger radios, which helps in bad reception zones), but I think the FCC disallows this based on the device class?
4. Future-proofing. You can always buy a new USB dongle for a laptop to take advantage of faster networking standards. Not so with fancy tablets
1. They are a rip off. ~$30 a month for a plan with a 2GB limit that only ONE device can use.
2. The two year commitment. Not only are you locked in to a data plan for two years, but you are also stuck with an obsolete device after the first year.
3. No voice option. You might be able to convince someone to pay the extra monthly fee if they could use either the phone or the tablet for phone calls (the tablets have stronger radios, which helps in bad reception zones), but I think the FCC disallows this based on the device class?
4. Future-proofing. You can always buy a new USB dongle for a laptop to take advantage of faster networking standards. Not so with fancy tablets
Lenovo has plans for a Windows 7 (desktop version) tablet later in the year. I don't see that as a risky venture, it's how well the OS will interact with the 1.5 GHz Intel processor. I have never liked "netbooks" because of the low powered processors thay they use. But, as of right now, there are no tablets on the market with speeds that compare. Apple's biggest enemy is not Android or Windows Phone, it's with themselves. Apple has a propensity for taking small steps forward. As someone said before, everyone else is playing catch-up. They are trying to pass Apple as quickly as possible. Android tablets will soon be using Nvidia's Kal-El processors (which are supposed to make Tegra 2s look like snails on a salt bed). And if Google can ever get rid of so many different versions of software for all of the different devices out there, that will make most of the non-techies out there feel like they have a competitor to the iDevices.
#2 is not quite true. Unlike data plans for smartphones and mifi devices, the two year commitment for the iPad can be turned off and back on on a month to month basis. I believe this is true for both Verizon and AT&T in the US. I'm not too familiar with the details since I have a 4G portable router from Verizon for which I pay, as I recall, $50 for five gigs of data download. But I pay for it whether I use it or not. If I go beyond 5 gigs I pay $10 per gig up to a ceiling of $80.
In fact, however, I've never used more than 3gigs in a single month since I'm usually connected to a wifi network at home or in a hotel.
If Microsoft can team up with Panasonic (and replace Android) on the Toughbook Tablet sales would be through the roof in the Public Safety and Government market. I know this is a different market than the main stream but it would certainly place a lot of Win8 Tablets in the hands of endusers.
Edit to Add:
As I have revisited this thread I have thought about it a tad more. Expanding upon my thoughts above, should that occur that's when I see the competition officially beginning. Sure these Tablets were born off of mobile phone UI's be it iOS or Android, but as their capabilities expand I think the tide will carry them truly towards the laptop side of the equasion where Apple and Microsoft have reigned.
Regarding Windows and specifically Win8, take the example above. Initially on the consumer side you see the predomanence of iOS and Android. In the government sector you then see Win8 make inroads. These users (lets assume ones who use Windows at home, etc.) will experience the UI without any expense on their part. They get accustomed to it just it time for someone like Dell to step in and offer a consumer Tablet with Win8. You more or less see the same competition between Apple and Microsoft in the Tablet arena as you see on the computer side.
Where does this leave Android? Well I am sure there will be many who began on an Android phone and expanded into the Android Tablets. But, should Tablets shift toward being a full operating system, it will depend upon if and how well Android can adapt to what users want at that time. With the lead Apple and Microsoft have in full operating systems, I don't know if Android could do that.
This is simply from a part time techie who knows just enough about computers to get in trouble. It's a simple look at what I see and how it could evolve. Personally... I think the game begins next year with Win8 and that is fine with me... as hopefully iOS counter strikes and offers us something amazing.
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And you always call games in the first quarter, the third inning, or the second round? The point is that tablets are being introduced at a rapid rate. The question assumed a mature market. It's not. The withdrawal of the least successful tablet from the market says very little about the next couple of years.
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Just a couple of questions. Can you actually read? Are you 12?
Android, Windows 8, and Kindle. There's also the Nook. It may not be a "tablet", but it's sure more than just an eReader.
I agree with analysts who say that the tablet market is not the same situation as the phone market.
In my opinion, there is a dark underbelly to the Android adoption rates in the phone market. I hear Android users say all the time that they don't use their phone for apps and don't even necessarily care that it's a smartphone. What they care about was that it was very cheap, or even free, and that it makes calls, texts, and runs Facebook. In other words, the guy selling them the phone handed them a cheap or free Android phone, and they felt that it was good enough. I also know several Android users who have been using Android from the start and are becoming more and more disgruntled with it and switching to iPhone. (biggest complaint I hear is usually battery life) This is not by any goading from me--I try to avoid phone evangelism at all costs. It's almost as bad as bringing up politics these days.
When you look at tablets, it's more like the iPod market. You're not tied to a carrier, you have your choice of hardware/software, and the world is your oyster. My parents tried a Galaxy Tab when they first came out because US Cellular is the only cell signal they get at their house and they wanted a 3G tablet. It was promptly returned within 20 days and they are now holding out for when the Verizon tower goes up by their house so they can get a 3G iPad.
There really is not a tablet market anymore than there's an MP3 player market. There's the iPad and the iPod. You have other choices if you're an Apple hater, but those choices mostly suck. I feel like Android is a me too OS made by a me too company that doesn't where to go with their software until they see Apple make a move. There are some things Google does better than Apple, yes, and I use Google's stuff every day. But mobile and cloud OS's are not one of those things.
In my opinion, there is a dark underbelly to the Android adoption rates in the phone market. I hear Android users say all the time that they don't use their phone for apps and don't even necessarily care that it's a smartphone. What they care about was that it was very cheap, or even free, and that it makes calls, texts, and runs Facebook. In other words, the guy selling them the phone handed them a cheap or free Android phone, and they felt that it was good enough. I also know several Android users who have been using Android from the start and are becoming more and more disgruntled with it and switching to iPhone. (biggest complaint I hear is usually battery life) This is not by any goading from me--I try to avoid phone evangelism at all costs. It's almost as bad as bringing up politics these days.
When you look at tablets, it's more like the iPod market. You're not tied to a carrier, you have your choice of hardware/software, and the world is your oyster. My parents tried a Galaxy Tab when they first came out because US Cellular is the only cell signal they get at their house and they wanted a 3G tablet. It was promptly returned within 20 days and they are now holding out for when the Verizon tower goes up by their house so they can get a 3G iPad.
There really is not a tablet market anymore than there's an MP3 player market. There's the iPad and the iPod. You have other choices if you're an Apple hater, but those choices mostly suck. I feel like Android is a me too OS made by a me too company that doesn't where to go with their software until they see Apple make a move. There are some things Google does better than Apple, yes, and I use Google's stuff every day. But mobile and cloud OS's are not one of those things.
No, you have no "inside knowledge". You just read a lot of techblogs and want to think you have inside knowledge. If you worked high up in a company and really did have inside knowledge you wouldn't go around the internet saying "I have inside knowledge" as that would break contracts you have signed with the company and you will likely lose your job.
You assumed a mature market, not the question.
If someone asks me who is winning a game, I don't say "It's too hard to tell because the losing team might score next period or next game or sometime after they trade a bunch of players and get new coaching."
There is no competition right now. Period. All the hypotheticals amount to "If companies which have consistently been unsuccessful start being successful then Apple will have competition" but this is just making up stories. Call 'em like they are, not on some 'best-case' ginned-up outcome.
Not sure what you mean by "fell flat." I don't have any sales figures on the Galaxy Tab (not to be confused with the Galaxy Tab 10.1) but it's available on the Verizon Wireless website for $199 (with a 2 year contract) so I have to assume it's worth Verizon's effort to offer it. On the other hand, the Galaxy 10.1 even with a two year contract receives only a minimal discount compared to its full retail price. In other words, at least as far as Verizon is concerned, there is no heavily subsidized purchase option for a iPad competitive tablet.
Furthermore, your $499 example for an iPad is faulty. As far as tethering is concerned, that's not a free option for most consumers. (Please don't tell me about jailbreaking; it's not an option for the average consumer and carriers are cracking down on unauthorized tethering.) Tethering is not a month-to-month option; it's an extra $480 on a two year contract.
So that means if you're going to purchase a 16G iPad 2 (wifi only) for $499, it will actually cost you $860. A comparable "tetherable" Galaxy 10.1 will run you $700+$480 for a tethering plan on your smartphone. Of course, you can beat that price by purchasing a Galaxy 10.1 for about $500 from another source. But adding the tethering cost to a $500 Galaxy will only result in a price that's virtually the same as an iPad. Again, there is no heavily subsidized option for any premium tablet, iPad or otherwise.
Finally, all of this applies only to consumers with smartphones who have a tethering option, still a small minority of all consumers. Neither Verizon nor AT&T are having trouble selling premium priced 3G iPads with a month to month $30 data plan. It's no mystery that consumers will purchase an iPad when a competitor is unsubsidized. But knock off $200-$300 from the price of a comparable device with a comparable data plan and the picture may be different.
Of course, it may never be tried. Carriers may be unwilling to subsidize tablets so heavily unless they can assure a data-based revenue stream for two full years. Or Apple may well have an agreement with carriers that prevent them from doing so. (Though if that's true I'd suspect it may violate anti-competitive regulations if that's the case.)
Personally, the choices don't affect me one way or the other. I don't need a data plan with my iPad because I already have a mifi device from Verizon with a two year commitment. It gives me 4G connectivity for a variety of devices and a month-to-month option on a single device doesn't meet my needs.
Even if a comparable Android tablet was available at a substantial discount I would stick with the iPad for other reasons. But if I didn't need a wide choice of educational apps for kids (something that Android tablets don't offer) and a continuous data plan, I'd consider something like the Galaxy 10.1 or the forthcoming Lenovo ThinkPad Tablet, especially if it were priced several hundred dollars less than an iPad. I suspect I'm not alone.
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Uh huh...And if someone asked you as recently as 18 months ago (Feb 2010) whether the iPhone had any competition from Android phones (6% market share) you would probably have said no. In fact, you'd probably have dismissed the iPhone (14% market share) at that point in comparison to both RIM (20%) and Symbian (47%). I assume you would have been totally objective and consistent, right?
Extrapolating iPhone sales in early 2010 would have involved a considerable number of "hypotheticals."
My point is simply that in highly volatile expanding markets the question of who's on top at the moment is a question of rather limited utility.
Hey, if you want to make up an argument about what I would have done in an alternative case and then refute that made-up position as inconsistent with what I actually say about the current topic, go for it.
Sure. Also of limited utility: downplaying Apple's current dominance of the market based on speculation about what's possible untempered by what is likely.
I think you're right that Win8 is the wild card here. Of course, Microsoft's track record for small devices is, ahem, not stellar. I happen to live down the road from the headquarters of the Evil Empire and have a number of Microsoftie friends. They tell me things are going to be different this time. We'll see. Suffice to say that if Windows8 is truly scalable, it will be a new ball game, especially for users accustomed to Windows PC's and Office apps.
Like iOS, Android is basically a phone level OS. On the other hand, it does have some advantages as a tablet OS. The most significant (though it cuts both ways) is native and comprehensive multi-tasking. Whether Google and its partners can leverage that technical advantage into important user functionality remains to be seen. (WebOS could not.)
From a user perspective comprehensive multi-tasking has two major advantages. Background processing of virtually any kind is supportable (but only to the extent that sufficient processing power is available to take advantage of it.) And multiple active windows are easily supported. But on a 10" screen, there's some question as to how valuable that is.
When Apple introduced its limited iOS multi-tasking put a lot of effort into determining just which apps should be able to run simultaneously. They concluded, for example, that apps like Pandora (and other music apps) should be enabled to run while other apps are being used. On the other hand, why would a user want to read a book and work on a spreadsheet at the same time? Would there even be enough screen real estate to make that combination usable?
Android fans love the fact that multi-tasking is largely unlimited on their devices. And in truth there are some annoying limitations in the iPad implementation. (I cannot listen to music and use a particular calculator at the same time, for example, because the sounds of calculator trump the music app. An even more annoying limitation occurs if I'm listening to a radio station when I try to use Star Walk.) But in truth, Apple did a credible job. The most important restrictions have to do with background messaging and email processing combined with notifications but iOS 5 seems to address those issues to at least some degree.
Google certainly has the resources and the willpower to continue Android development. Whether there is room for three major choices (Windows8) remains to be seen.
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I was just trying to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume your argument would be logically consistent. Forgive me for thinking logic would trump your fanboyism.
In every "argument" you make, you simply invent something and then argue against something else, all the while ignoring the original point. When people point this out, you insult them, call them a fanboy, and then say something snarky. I really feel bad for you.
Well, the feeling is certainly mutual. Sorry that you find such simple points so difficult to follow.
Logically consistent with what? I made some points; if the things I actually say are inconsistent, point out where. Making up a different scenario and putting words in my mouth and then expecting me to defend your conjured-up strawman isn't 'giving me the benefit of the doubt'.
Jsh1010101 - did you see that HP is now refunding people for buying the crappy TouchPad? I guess this was all in their master plan, right? According to you, HP had planned to spend billions buying webOS and designing a tablet, all the while knowing they were going to exit the tablet/PC market immediately following the worst-recepted device release ever, and the have the intention of refunding every customer who got duped into buying the TP.
(Seriously how do you come up with this stuff?)
HP sounds like a wonderful company, according to you.
http://gizmodo.com/5832897/dont-worry-hp-is-refunding-you-all-your-touchpad-money
(Seriously how do you come up with this stuff?)
HP sounds like a wonderful company, according to you.
http://gizmodo.com/5832897/dont-worry-hp-is-refunding-you-all-your-touchpad-money
I should have known better than to respond to your juvenile ravings once again. Your characterization of what I've said is ridiculously untrue.
If you care to actually quote me, feel free to do so. Otherwise, stop misstating what I've said.