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When you have questions about a nation's tax policies, whom should you ask for clarity on them?
Certainly not an Irishmen! There is no such thing as a national economy of Ireland anymore, the country is part of the European single market and subject to the European competition law. So you should ask an EU lawyer. In the US you also have federal law and state law, the concept shouldn't be that hard to comprehend.
 
Sounds like this European Commission wants this money to be paid to Ireland. But why? Could this European Commission somehow benifit from Ireland gaining over a billion dollars in taxes from Apple?

Yes. The more taxes swell the Irish coffers, the less other EU states subsidise the Irish economy through contribution payments.

As said, this is why the Commission is on Ireland's case. It doesn't see why EU taxpayers should prop up a rich company like Apple just so that it can park its money out of the reach of the IRS.
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If there was a loophole then fair enough, but there was none, they JUST DIDN'T PAY! I love apple products but the company is a big FAT turd.
There was a loophole. Ireland plugged it in 2015 after the EU growled.
 
But it is NOT a special deal. Any company can set this up with the existing laws (as they have been written for decades and decades) though it might not work as well for Company A as it would for Company B. Saying this is a "special deal" is an out lie by the EC and not based on fact or law. It is a money grab and nothing else. The EC is simply making up "law" as they go and applying the new "laws" retroactively.
This is incorrect: the issue is a special deal made by the Irish government for Apple, and only for Apple. I mean, there are plenty of sources all stating the same thing. Want yet another source? From the article:
This was all because the Irish tax authorities struck deals with Apple in 1991 and 2007 that allowed the company to pay far less than the country's standard corporate tax rate—already the lowest in the EU at 12.5%. The Commission's investigations found that Ireland gave Apple this special treatment so as not to risk the thousands of jobs that the company provided in the country.
So Apple didn't pay what another company would have paid, it paid much less and it was because Ireland gave it special treatment.
 
Isn't there a big fuss about Apple not paying its fair share of tax in the US either though?


None of this "fair share" talk is relevant - be it your idea of what a fair share is or mine. What is relevant is the tax laws that are applicable. My two cents is that Ireland made the agreement with Apple - Ireland should be the one to live up to that agreement.
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Fed up trying to explain this case to complete morons. Just pay up and shut up Apple you greedy bastards.

Rather testy response on a complex issue. Did Apple make an agreement with the EU or with Ireland? The issue of retro liability is highly questionable to many. If Apple is ultimately found liable for the taxes than they sue Ireland for the damages per the agreement they signed off on.
 
Certainly not an Irishmen! There is no such thing as a national economy of Ireland anymore, the country is part of the European single market and subject to the European competition law. So you should ask an EU lawyer. In the US you also have federal law and state law, the concept shouldn't be that hard to comprehend.

Of course Ireland is part of the single market and subject to certain EU rules. But member states still have considerable autonomy when it comes to setting their income tax policies. Regardless, if someone wants to know how Ireland's tax laws would apply in particular situations - e.g., what would or wouldn't be allowed under those laws - it is Ireland which they should ask such clarification. Even if they wanted a deal with regard to their Irish income tax liability, it would be Ireland that they would need to ask.

Parties should be able to rely on a given nation's government institutions when it comes to understanding what the laws of that nation require or will allow. If they can't, that can make for untenable situations and a nation in which doing business, as well as other things, is very problematic. At any rate, there wouldn't have been anything unreasonable in Apple's lawyers failing to advise Apple that it couldn't rely on Ireland to tell it how Ireland's tax laws would apply in particular circumstances.

If Ireland, in instituting or enforcing its own tax policies, breaks EU (or other) rules, that's between Ireland and them.

As for the comparison with the situation in the United States: If someone needs clarification on how state tax laws would apply in a given situation, they would ask the state not the federal government. States have their own practices for interpreting their tax policies and advising parties as to how those policies would apply in particular circumstances. One would not ask the IRS (the federal tax agency) for an interpretation of state tax laws. The IRS would not be in a position to authoritatively say how those tax laws would apply to a given situation.
 
Umm yeah. That's usually how tax works.. the more you make, the more you pay. Apple knows how to hide/shield money. Yes, they do it legally, mostly, and just take advantage of dumb laws designed to help corporations. The Ireland situation is pure insanity.

They make their computers in China, keep hundreds of billions outside of the USA, get great deals with Ireland, and yet their products are the most expensive out there. Based on all of that, they would have to go out of business if they ever moved to US production, simply because they would price a MacBook Pro @ $5k, and nobody would buy it.

It's ironic how we as the consumer pay the "Apple Tax" and Apple does everything they can to avoid paying taxes.
You’re describing the entire tech industry. So why would you single out Apple to pay more than their legally fair share?
 
EU is acting like a bratty child here. A country set tax laws and a company benefited. Now the EU is sad. People this this guy don't seem to understand business, politics or logic...
No, you don't. The way the EU works is that if you want to benefit from their trade and protections then you need to play by their rules.
 
"I'm all for higher taxes...unless we're the ones paying them."
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No, you don't. The way the EU works is that if you want to benefit from their trade and protections then you need to play by their rules.

I don't think Apple gets much "protection."
 
"I'm all for higher taxes...unless we're the ones paying them."
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I don't think Apple gets much "protection."
Apple employees get protection. The thousands of people that they employ benefit from police, healthcare, streetlights etc etc and Apple do not contribute their fair share for the upkeep of these provisions.
 
Couldn't agree more. This is all about money.
If Apple wasn't as successful as they are, we would have never heard a peep.

BUT, it would be a fair thing to TRY to eliminate all of these "deals" going forward.

That unfortunately will never happen. Tax deals are being made world wide everywhere. Be it to entice employment,
development, factory locations etc.
Anybody who understands money, knows it's like vapor. The slightest wind and it goes where it is not being disturbed by any turbulence.

Just here in the US pro football clubs pack up and go to other cities where they get tax breaks to build new stadiums.These breaks don't always come directly towards the venue, so the clubs can say: We are paying for all of it!

Casinos get deals, chip factories and if Foxconn ever gets here, you know what they'll get...........

Those stadium deals never work out well for the cities themselves. They bring some business, but they bring a lot of traffic. The municipalities themselves have to post bonds to finance the construction, and it generally doesn't help anyone other than the players and team owners. Much of the time these things should be allowed to simply go elsewhere.
 
None of this "fair share" talk is relevant - be it your idea of what a fair share is or mine. What is relevant is the tax laws that are applicable. My two cents is that Ireland made the agreement with Apple - Ireland should be the one to live up to that agreement.
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Rather testy response on a complex issue. Did Apple make an agreement with the EU or with Ireland? The issue of retro liability is highly questionable to many. If Apple is ultimately found liable for the taxes than they sue Ireland for the damages per the agreement they signed off on.
Its no different than if Florida made a special deal with Apple that was against Federal law. Ireland is subject to EU law.

Many on here are acting as if the EU is targeting Apple in fact they are going after many companies on similar tax issues not always in ireland, Google, Starbucks etc etc.
 
I read Ireland did not want the money Apple was ordered to pay. Wonder why?

Because being forced to collect that money from Apple could have deleterious effects on its economy over the long term.

The rule of law is an important concept. As much as anything, it's what separates third-world nations from developed ones. Parties - to include businesses - need to know that, for the most part, the rules are set, that they won't be enforced arbitrarily or capriciously, and that they won't be changed with retroactive effect. A reliable rule of law is foundational; it allows so much of that which is beneficial about society to be built upon it.

(The Republic of) Ireland wants businesses, as job creators and economic stimulators, to be able to trust what it tells them about its laws and how they will be enforced - to include its tax laws. Ireland has tried to make those laws attractive to business so as to, over the long term, benefit its economy. In turn, businesses make decisions and take actions in reliance on those laws and assurances from Ireland as to how those laws might apply to their particular situations. Ireland then benefits from the decisions and actions of those businesses. If businesses, along with other parties, can no longer trust that what Ireland tells them will be abided by, that's problematic. It discourages them from operating in Ireland. The concept of reliance (on counter-party commitments) is a big part of what makes economies, and societies in general, work.

Ireland has already made changes to its tax rules. But that's okay, as those changes apply prospectively. Parties can often live with the possibility that changes with prospective effect might be made. However, the European Commission is now trying to force Ireland to effectively say to Apple: Hey, you know those things we told you decades ago about how our tax laws work and would work in your situation? Well, we were wrong. We were wrong about how our tax laws work or, in the alternative, if we were right about how our tax laws work then we aren't allowed to have such policies. And now you have to pay the price for us being wrong - not going forward, but retroactively.

It's understandable that Ireland doesn't want to have to, effectively, say that to Apple, even if it means getting a fairly large tax pay day as a result. In saying that to Apple, it is saying to the rest of the world: You can't trust what we tell you about how our laws work. And if it's decided later that we were wrong, you might be the one that pays the price for it. That makes Ireland a less attractive place to do business and to build out operations. Ireland has worked to make itself a more attractive place, so it of course doesn't want things which undermine those efforts.

There's also, from Ireland's perspective, an issue of national sovereignty. Ireland is part of the European Union and the Single Market, and along with that comes limits on its autonomy. But this is an area in which it believes it maintains considerable autonomy. It is free, for the most part, to set its own income tax policies. It sees this action by the European Commission as, effectively, telling it that it can't have the income tax policies that it has (or that it had). It doesn't see this as an objection to a special deal it gave Apple, because it doesn't believe it gave Apple a special deal. It believes that its advance opinions (for Apple) were consistent with its general tax policies - that other similarly situated parties would be able to do similar things (or that they would have been able to before it changed its tax policies). So, understandably, Ireland is resisting the European Commission trying to tell it what its tax policies can be when it believes that it should, and that it does, have the right to set those policies as it chooses.
 
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Tough ****. If Apple are found guilty, then can pay up or get the **** out of EU and lose hundreds of millions of revenue.

And the Yanks can keep the **** of out EUs business. ****ing Trumpland.
 
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Anybody could have setup a non tax resident Irish company and allocated profits to it as Apple did. Which companies tried and were rejected?

No. Apple got a special deal with the Irish government - thus the case and fine.

It's the Irish government that is to blame and also the Irish government that has been asked to collect back taxes from Apple.
 
Which ever way you look at it, as cube says the deal Apple struck with Ireland was mainly a Tax dodge. Jobs and consruction secondary.

But the deal was struck on Irish soil, personally I don't think the EU should have any say in it.

and I voted for our Country - UK to remain in the eu.

Yes, that's exactly why some don't want to be part of supranational unions -- because your sovereignty goes out the window. Your people in UK wisely decided it wasn't worth it last year.
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Apple is a global company, most of their revenue comes from outside of the U.S., why should it pay taxes on that part in the states?

I am originally form the country of Shell, Unilever,ASML and Phillips amongst others, do I claim those companies because they were once a local company, if those companies paid all their taxes on all of their revenue this country would be the richest country by far.

Sure, Apple is a global company and Apple's cronies in the US political establishment, such as the Clintons and Obama, should stop interfering with the EU's handling of Apple's "global" tax problem.
 
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Anybody could have setup a non tax resident Irish company and allocated profits to it as Apple did. Which companies tried and were rejected?
And? That's not the issue with Apple. The issue are the special, extraordinary deals made with Apple allowing them to exempt a large parts of their profits from taxation. These deals were not available to all other companies.
 
Parties should be able to rely on a given nation's government institutions when it comes to understanding what the laws of that nation require or will allow. If they can't, that can make for untenable situations and a nation in which doing business, as well as other things, is very problematic.
Now you got it. No company should make a deal with the government of Ireland, because it will promise you huge benefits of illegal state aid, you will end up paying back with interests even a decade later. Do not trust in Ireland! It's not a serious country.
 
Its no different than if Florida made a special deal with Apple that was against Federal law. Ireland is subject to EU law.

Many on here are acting as if the EU is targeting Apple in fact they are going after many companies on similar tax issues not always in ireland, Google, Starbucks etc etc.

I'm not one of those who is on the Apple being targeted bandwagon. Ireland is a member of the EU - Apple is not. If, after all the dust settles, Apple is found to owe $XXXX, what should Ireland's liability be?

As Brexit continues maybe this issue gets rolled into the negotiations?
 
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