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I do understand where you're coming from. But, I'm convinced that they'll bring out more than just a spec bump and FaceTime -- I hope, anyway.

I believe the current generation iPad's resolution will remain as it is, although, I don't want to believe that. However, I'm thinking a 7" iPad will come out with a 326 PPI display (1920x1280) in the near future (alongside the next refresh). That's a pretty huge resolution, coming it at 4x the pixels... but it'd take awesomeness to a whole new level.

Well I most certainly hope for more of a boost as well, but the ppi display quadrupling isn't really in the cards unless Apple wants to start doling out that $30 Billion surplus they have sitting around to subsidize the devices and sell them at a massive loss. And they have no reason to. Even if tablets with slightly better hardware come out, they won't have significantly better (if at all) resolution, and Apple still likely has the user experience advantage.

If a 7" iPad does come out (which I will state right now would surprise me, but isn't horribly unlikely) it could likely see the same resolution 1024x768. It would ensure app compatibility with the existing iPad. After that point, the only realistic option the 10" iPad has is to quadruple the ppi if they want to remain seamless app compatibility.

I would rather see Apple hold out on an iPad refresh until the Spring or Summer when a significant hardware bump would be possible to go along with the camera/RAM. And at that point, next year, if they find the hardware to put a 2048x1536 display in the iPad and maintain performance, I would fear for the battery life of the device.
 
I was content to let this die, but it seems to be on permanent life support. So unless the mods want to delete/lock this thread, I'll take the time to continue responding to your bizarre claims.



No. The resolution difference is not as massive as people make it out to be. 800x480 is nothing to sneeze at with 233ppi @ 4". You get a larger area which gives you the option for roomier virtual keyboards among other things, improving text input accuracy. It does not in the slightest sense look "low res". And however minute, a 4" display can be held further away from the user, making 233ppi @ 4" different than 233ppi @ 3.5".

Once again I will refer you back to how ppi vs. distance from the user affects how one sees a screen. For the.....I lost count how many times.



Again, no. I don't think you have the slightest idea what you're talking about. The iPhone4's IPS panel has a contrast ratio of 800:1. The contrast ratio of SuperAMOLED is, to an average user, essentially infinite due to the nature of how AMOLED functions. Depending on how you measure it if you want to assign it a value, the SuperAMOLED screen has a contrast ratio of anywhere from 50,000:1 to 100,000:1.

It is not simply double, or triple, but orders of magnitude better than the iPhone4's IPS panel in terms of contrast ratio.

The only area where the IPS panel has a significant advantage in this area is color saturation. As stated before, SuperAMOLED can make certain colors appear oversaturated (although generally they are images which border on oversaturated to begin with regardless of display, so the severity to which it oversaturates is rather debatable).



Reading comprehension. It is your enemy. What I said verbatim:

"Standard AMOLED is more difficult to read in direct sunlight compared to the iPhone display, however SuperAMOLED bascially bridges that gap."

IPS panels, like the one used in the iPhone4, have superior viewing in daylight when compared to standard AMOLED. SuperAMOLED is something completely different, and among other improvements, essentially negates the sunlight viewability difference.



Yes I'm confident you've used both extensively despite you having no clue what I was talking about with regards to sunlight viewability, contrast ratio, color saturation, resolution, etc. It's one thing to after this claim "I don't know specifics, I just buy", it's something entirely different to not even mention the sunlight viewability, misread what I wrote, and then claim the sunlight viewability is better on IPS panels. And then follow that up with "I've used both extensively".



No, the contrast ratio, ppi, screen size, sunlight viewability, color saturation, etc, etc, etc, are not matters of opinion. They are matters of observed and verified fact.

If you want to view things such as "water is wet" as an opinion, then by all means do so. But when you are openly derided for publicly expressing your doubt that it is fact, don't act surprised.

What one prefers, a 3.5" IPS screen with 960x640, or a 4" SAMOLED screen with 800x480....THAT is a matter of opinion. Arguing about the numerical values and the nature of what constitutes things like "contrast" is not a matter of opinion.

lol you and your opinions, and then you state as fact that the difference between the Galaxy and iPhone 4 resolution isn't "massive."? L. O. L

Whatever. And yes, I misread ONE thing you wrote. Clearly my argument is null and void on ALL points, therefore.

Whatever. Clearly you know a ton about contrast ratios. Actually, if you did, you'd know that all those numbers are total FUD.
 
lol you and your opinions, and then you state as fact that the difference between the Galaxy and iPhone 4 resolution isn't "massive."? L. O. L

Because the difference is not massive. 960x640 to 800x480 isn't as significant of a difference on small displays, let alone ones of different size. The resolution for the iPhone was chosen specifically for the app compatibility. And comparing the two on an apples-to-apples basis is rather disingenuous due to the nature of SAMOLED vs. IPS and how they display images. That is another can of worms that I'm just too exhausted to open with you.

Whatever. And yes, I misread ONE thing you wrote. Clearly my argument is null and void on ALL points, therefore.

Your rebuttals were pretty much all null and void long before you misread the post regarding SAMOLED/AMOLED

Whatever. Clearly you know a ton about contrast ratios. Actually, if you did, you'd know that all those numbers are total FUD.

Haha, oh wow. Alright I give up. Reason and stated mathematical measurements accomplish nothing if you simply toss aside anything that doesn't go along with your preconceived (and stunningly vague) view of how a particular technology functions. You appear to be not only perfectly content to simply say it's "magic" like the adverts, you seem to firmly believe that is the only explanation.

Yet at the same time you're like the opposite of a luddite. You think everything, regardless of how far off, is possible at this very instant in time and that a company simply withholds this technology until they decide to grace us with its presence, rather than accepting the manufacturing and economic hurdles that need to be overcome. It's as if you live in the imaginary technological equivalent of Willy Wonka's chocolate factory.

You get nothing, you lose. Good day sir.
 
Generally speaking, as your resolution goes up (within the same dimensions), your yield goes down when using the same manufacturing technologies.

If they've managed to perfect the process of cramming 4x as many pixels per area into IPS panels, and maintain the same yield, that would be very impressive. But yea, unless someone leaks that info somewhere, I doubt we'll hear about accurate yield numbers.

IPS with 163ppi has been around for a while so I imagine they've had quite a bit of time to boost yield. I can't imagine the newer displays have the same yield, but it's impossible to know reliably without leaked info.

Exactly. In particular "Generally speaking, as your resolution goes up (within the same dimensions), your yield goes down when using the same manufacturing technologies.". That was the point I wanted to try and make, using real numbers, to some of these people that say "Of course we'll get a retina display next year".

If an iPad retina screen were to use the same technology as the current iPhone 4 screen, and the iPhone 4 screen has a yield of X [ X > 0, X <= 1 ], then the rumoured 7" iPad (using the rumoured 7" device because 7" is exactly twice the iPhone 3.5" so the pixel density remains essential) then each 7" retina display is equivalent to running 4 perfect iPhone 4 screens off the production lines but, critically, these must be consecutive units. That gives a yield for a new 7" iPad screen of X^4.

Just to emphasise for the non-mathematical how much difference it can make raising something to the power of 4 let's take a totally imaginary figure of 90% yield so, on the iPhone 4, 1 unit in every 10 would be being lost to manufacturing error. For a 7" retina screen that yield becomes approximately 0.9^4 = 0.66 (to 2 d.p.), i.e. 1 out of every 3 units coming off the production line needs to be junked due to manufacturing error. The current yield figures are presumeably much better than 90% but even so, the same process with the same yield characteristics is going to create significantly more manufacturing wastage, let alone whether they can even lay down the pixels with the consistency required across the larger area, and the additional materials needed. This ends up making a very expensive screen and that's without even talking about the low-wattage CPU and GPU technologies needed to drive it.

I'm not saying this will never happen, I'm just saying that the yields need to be pretty spectacular on the iPhone 4 screen in order to be able to scale up the process for larger screens, plus we don't yet have powerful enough CPUs and GPUs that can run within the power envelopes required by the available battery power and cooling and be able to drive that many pixels even if the screen could be manufactured at an affordable price.

- Julian
 
Because the difference is not massive. 960x640 to 800x480 isn't as significant of a difference on small displays, let alone ones of different size. The resolution for the iPhone was chosen specifically for the app compatibility. And comparing the two on an apples-to-apples basis is rather disingenuous due to the nature of SAMOLED vs. IPS and how they display images. That is another can of worms that I'm just too exhausted to open with you.
I have to disagree here, 960x640 (~615k pixels) vs 800x480 (~370k pixels) has quite a difference, particularly when the smaller resolution is on a slightly larger screen, not that 800x480 res on a 4" wouldn't be adequate, but it certainly is a massive difference, imo, anyway.
 
Because the difference is not massive. 960x640 to 800x480 isn't as significant of a difference on small displays, let alone ones of different size. The resolution for the iPhone was chosen specifically for the app compatibility. And comparing the two on an apples-to-apples basis is rather disingenuous due to the nature of SAMOLED vs. IPS and how they display images. That is another can of worms that I'm just too exhausted to open with you.



Your rebuttals were pretty much all null and void long before you misread the post regarding SAMOLED/AMOLED



Haha, oh wow. Alright I give up. Reason and stated mathematical measurements accomplish nothing if you simply toss aside anything that doesn't go along with your preconceived (and stunningly vague) view of how a particular technology functions. You appear to be not only perfectly content to simply say it's "magic" like the adverts, you seem to firmly believe that is the only explanation.

Yet at the same time you're like the opposite of a luddite. You think everything, regardless of how far off, is possible at this very instant in time and that a company simply withholds this technology until they decide to grace us with its presence, rather than accepting the manufacturing and economic hurdles that need to be overcome. It's as if you live in the imaginary technological equivalent of Willy Wonka's chocolate factory.

You get nothing, you lose. Good day sir.

I would say: "Game, set, match" kntgsp. This thread is becoming a one sided classroom for some that just will not get it. Best entertainment I've had in a while. I hope this continues a few more days. This is too funny. Painful to watch the humiliation but funny none the less.
 
I have to disagree here, 960x640 (~615k pixels) vs 800x480 (~370k pixels) has quite a difference, particularly when the smaller resolution is on a slightly larger screen, not that 800x480 res on a 4" wouldn't be adequate, but it certainly is a massive difference, imo, anyway.

The point is that on displays of that size, you experience diminishing returns with regards to what the end user sees. The closer you get to the required ppi for a user to be unable to distinguish individual pixels, the less substantial a resolution jump appears.

For instance, say for the sake of argument you have a 3.5" display with 640x320 resolution. Then you have another 3.5" display with 800x480 and a third 3.5" display with 960x640. The ppi (arguably the average) required for a 3.5" display to appear "Retina" for an end user is approximately 300ppi.

Those displays give you approximately 204, 266 and 329 ppi respectively (which is technically what the math gives you on the iPhone4, dunno why they say 326, but whever). If "Retina" is achieved at 300dpi on a 3.5" display (based on average distance from the user), then you clearly see a bigger jump between the first two, as anything beyond Retina gives you diminishing returns.
 
The point is that on displays of that size, you experience diminishing returns with regards to what the end user sees. The closer you get to the required ppi for a user to be unable to distinguish individual pixels, the less substantial a resolution jump appears.

For instance, say for the sake of argument you have a 3.5" display with 640x320 resolution. Then you have another 3.5" display with 800x480 and a third 3.5" display with 960x640. The ppi (arguably the average) required for a 3.5" display to appear "Retina" for an end user is approximately 300ppi.

Those displays give you approximately 204, 266 and 329 ppi respectively (which is technically what the math gives you on the iPhone4, dunno why they say 326, but whever). If "Retina" is achieved at 300dpi on a 3.5" display (based on average distance from the user), then you clearly see a bigger jump between the first two, as anything beyond Retina gives you diminishing returns.
Yeah, I know. What calculation do you use to figure out the PPI?
 
kntgsp, this has been way too much fun for me to wind you up because of your self-righteousness.

Thanks for the entertainment. As someone said earlier, "best entertainment I've had in a while."

We all know that you simply can't be wrong. After all, apparently there isn't a massive sharpness/resolution difference between the iPhone 4 and Galaxy line. :rolleyes: You're as blind in real life as you are on these forums.

Thanks for the amusement, though. ;)
 
kntgsp, this has been way too much fun for me to wind you up because of your self-righteousness.

Thanks for the entertainment. As someone said earlier, "best entertainment I've had in a while."

We all know that you simply can't be wrong. After all, apparently there isn't a massive sharpness/resolution difference between the iPhone 4 and Galaxy line. :rolleyes: You're as blind in real life as you are on these forums.

Thanks for the amusement, though. ;)

That's calling the kettle black. You proclaimed that you speak for EVERY iPad owner so what is the difference between what you did and what you accuse kntgsp of doing. At least he has facts and logic to back up his assertions than just opinions. I can't speak for everyone but I have completely enjoyed having him pull apart and laying bare all of your spurious arguments. I whole heartedly encourage to please continue this thread. Next time I will bring the popcorn because this makes for fun reading.
 
That's calling the kettle black. You proclaimed that you speak for EVERY iPad owner so what is the difference between what you did and what you accuse kntgsp of doing. At least he has facts and logic to back up his assertions than just opinions. I can't speak for everyone but I have completely enjoyed having him pull apart and laying bare all of your spurious arguments. I whole heartedly encourage to please continue this thread. Next time I will bring the popcorn because this makes for fun reading.

I stand by my iPad comments. Did you bother reading anything? Apple AGREED with me that wifi on the iPad was broken. Their high-level tech staff agreed, were able to reproduce the problem on their own hardware, and *gasp* released firmware 3.2.1 to fix it SPECIFICALLY.

But I guess that's all my opinion, right?

And no, I'm done with this thread. But it was pretty hilarious while it lasted.
 
I stand by my iPad comments. Did you bother reading anything? Apple AGREED with me that wifi on the iPad was broken. Their high-level tech staff agreed, were able to reproduce the problem on their own hardware, and *gasp* released firmware 3.2.1 to fix it SPECIFICALLY.

And no, I'm done with this thread. But it was pretty hilarious while it lasted.

Beep, beep, beep...... The sound of backing up.....

Sure. Apple's high-level staff called you in to confer and trouble shoot their issues. Right.....
 
Beep, beep, beep...... The sound of backing up.....

Sure. Apple's high-level staff called you in to confer and trouble shoot their issues. Right.....

Just like he has extensive personal experience with both the Galaxy S and iPhone4.....:rolleyes:

It's almost as if.......when one particular component in an Apple device is pointed out as not being superior to all other technologies in existence, his world view implodes. The horror!

/I give up with explaining it to him.
 
Just like he has extensive personal experience with both the Galaxy S and iPhone4.....:rolleyes:

It's almost as if.......when one particular component in an Apple device is pointed out as not being superior to all other technologies in existence, his world view implodes. The horror!

/I give up with explaining it to him.

At least he is constant. Constantly wrong but at least he can be counted on for entertainment purposes.

Thanks for the fun. Best thread and classroom ever. :)
 
the ipad will go to a smaller screen size with retina. solves the processing power question. this theory also corroborates the findings of the 7" ipads.
 
the ipad will go to a smaller screen size with retina. solves the processing power question. this theory also corroborates the findings of the 7" ipads.
I do believe that a 7" iPad is on it's way, however, a 1920x1280 res (326 PPI) is still 4x the pixels of the iPhone 4, which is a lot. And, the current iPad isn't going anywhere, although I do hope it gets a retina display, even 2048x1536 is better than nothing (~3.1m pixels).
 
I do believe that a 7" iPad is on it's way, however, a 1920x1280 res (326 PPI) is still 4x the pixels of the iPhone 4, which is a lot. And, the current iPad isn't going anywhere, although I do hope it gets a retina display, even 2048x1536 is better than nothing (~3.1m pixels).

Even if an LCD display with that pixel-resolution were available, the GPU in the iPad would need to be upgraded massively to cope with such an enormous frame-buffer.

#itaintgonnahappen

C.
 
Even if an LCD display with that pixel-resolution were available, the GPU in the iPad would need to be upgraded massively to cope with such an enormous frame-buffer.

#itaintgonnahappen

C.

#itaintgonnahappen yet.

As a computer scientist I'm well aware of the technical issues preventing this from happening at the moment but I'm personally convinced that Apple have this on their road map. There's no way they won't at least do a 3GS->4 type of pixel quadrupling as soon as all the technologies are there to do it and at prices that consumers can afford.

For me the interesting question is when. 2011? Not a chance. 2014? I would be dissapointed if it's not there by then. 2013? Very possible. 2012? I think that low power CPU/GPU technology is at a point of better than Moore's law improvements so I wouldn't bet against it for the 2012 model. I do have no knowledge of display manufacturing issues however so I've no idea whether that would still be a show-stopper for 2012.

- Julian
 
Even if an LCD display with that pixel-resolution were available, the GPU in the iPad would need to be upgraded massively to cope with such an enormous frame-buffer.

#itaintgonnahappen

C.

The SGX535 core is essentially what powers the GMA500 graphics in most netbooks, although it can utilize up to 256MB of RAM available to it in a platform that regularly has 1GB of total system memory. I have an Aspire One that utilizes that chip and have hooked it up to a 22" external 1680x1050 display before to play a standard def movie. 480p it can do at that resolution and size. 720p is quite jittery. Granted this is somewhat of an apples to oranges comparison and I don't want to appear hypocritical, but it gives you a rough idea of what the core is actually capable of. If the thing can't do 720p reliably in a non-native 1680x1050 resolution, you can totally forget 720p at 2048x1536, let alone 1080p.

There's no way on this earth that the SGX535 could do anything with a 2048x1536 resolution except display a static image or basic 2D environment, if it even supports a resolution like that to begin with.


#itaintgonnahappen yet.

As a computer scientist I'm well aware of the technical issues preventing this from happening at the moment but I'm personally convinced that Apple have this on their road map. There's no way they won't at least do a 3GS->4 type of pixel quadrupling as soon as all the technologies are there to do it and at prices that consumers can afford.

"Yet" isn't whats been up for contention in this thread. You can say anything will happen if given a long enough time frame. The issue was that it's not remotely possible with the current internals and arguably the current available internals for the iPad. Not bashing you, just saying that when we say "not possible" it's pretty clear cut that it refers to "at present or the immediate future".

For me the interesting question is when. 2011? Not a chance. 2014? I would be dissapointed if it's not there by then. 2013? Very possible. 2012? I think that low power CPU/GPU technology is at a point of better than Moore's law improvements so I wouldn't bet against it for the 2012 model. I do have no knowledge of display manufacturing issues however so I've no idea whether that would still be a show-stopper for 2012.

I can see it, at the very earliest, being possible at the end of 2011. The CPU/GPU technology is catching up extremely fast and will not be the bottleneck towards seeing a "Retina Display" in the iPad. The main issues will be the following:

1. Power consumption. A 2048x1536 display utilizing IPS will demolish the current battery. I mean just totally obliterate. Even with a die shrink on the CPU/GPU to 32nm, the CPU/GPU reduction in power draw wouldn't be enough to offset the massive increase in power draw from the display. The display accounts for the largest amount of power draw in the iPad right now by faaaaaaaaaaaaar.

2. Display yield and cost. Producing 2048x1536 reliably and relatively cheaply at 9.7" is difficult.
 
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