Retina MacBook Pro Pushes the Limits of its Graphics Capabilities

[thekev]

I'm really curious to see when external GPUS via thunderbolt will become available.

It's pointless to be reliant on something like that for even basic functions. The value in a notebook is that it can be easily moved and transported. Even if they do catch on (would require real support on the Windows side more than OSX) you wouldn't want it to be a necessity outside of heavy use. Otherwise you're dragging around an additional item.

You've got to be kidding me....

Are you seriously suggesting that the CPU is responsible for display issues? Do you know what powers and drives the display in these machines?

HiDPI does not matter when it comes to the CPU... it is the GPU! Why? think pixels... there are many more pixels to push now. The GPU will choke, the CPU is not responsible for any graphic stuff, this isn't pre-2001.

Most of Adobe's Creative Suite used solely cpu based drawing until CS4. Zbrush still uses it, and it pushes around large amounts of data. Web browsers still rely on the cpu for many things. While they do offload to the gpu, it would be silly to say that's the only thing that matters. It's most likely poorly threaded here.

 

[Aodhan]

The MacBook Pro Retina is an impressive machine. It's so thin, it's beautiful, and it has great hardware. But there are compromises. Compromises that I did not have to accept with the non-retina. And for 2200 of my hard earned dollars, I simply cannot accept such compromises.

The early adopters here defend their purchases vociferously, and that's great for them. For me, it simply wasn't worth the trade-offs for the retina screen, particularly considering I use an external monitor. And I can add an SSD any time. But my 1GB 650M only has to drive 1440x990, or 1920x1080 on my external monitor. I can see that makes a difference.

 

[jav6454]

Most of Adobe's Creative Suite used solely cpu based drawing until CS4. Zbrush still uses it, and it pushes around large amounts of data. Web browsers still rely on the cpu for many things. While they do offload to the gpu, it would be silly to say that's the only thing that matters. It's most likely poorly threaded here.

When it comes to data crunch I don't deny it is the CPU, but once the data is crunched and needs to be pushed to the screen, it is not the CPU that pushes it out, it is the GPU. The GPU has to figure out where to put what.

 

[JohnDoe98]

It is both, but the GPU is the one doing the heavy lifting

I guess you preferred to skip this section right?

Some elements of drawing in Safari for example aren’t handled by the GPU. Quickly scrolling up and down on the AnandTech home page will peg one of the four IVB cores in the rMBP at 100%:

The GPU has an easy time with its part of the process but the CPU’s workload is borderline too much for a single core to handle. Throw a more complex website at it and things get bad quickly. Facebook combines a lot of compressed images with text - every single image is decompressed on the CPU before being handed off to the GPU. Combine that with other elements that are processed on the CPU and you get a recipe for choppy scrolling.

 

[jav6454]

I guess you preferred to skip this section right?

I guess you didn't read or comprehend this:

The GPU has an easy time with its part of the process but the CPU’s workload is borderline too much for a single core to handle

I think, today's CPUs are multi-core and have a nice boost to them. Now, go troll along.

 

[Eidorian]

It's your web page, but at high resolution.

Web browsers still rely on the cpu for many things. While they do offload to the gpu, it would be silly to say that's the only thing that matters. It's most likely poorly threaded here.

Which is what makes it so hard to come to terms with. You are talking to people with more concerns on 3D rendering than web page rendering which is on the CPU majority side of things.

 

[iBug2]

Yes, and that is exactly the conclusion Anandtech came to, which is far more knowledgeable on these matters than either of us. Again, read the actual review before spewing your half-baked criticisms.



If that were true you'd see far more lag on the HD4000 than the GT 650 as the latter is substantially stronger. Truth of the matter though is the lag issue is not any different no matter which GPU you are using, which again suggests the problem lies elsewhere. Anyway, go read the actual review where all this is explained in technical detail.

This. And it is the same way on 2009 mbp as well. Web browsing is the same fps using 9400m or 9600gt because it is mostly cpu bottlenecked. If anything using core animation is lagging such as expose then it is gpu.

 

[JohnDoe98]

When it comes to data crunch I don't deny it is the CPU, but once the data is crunched and needs to be pushed to the screen, it is not the CPU that pushes it out, it is the GPU. The GPU has to figure out where to put what.

But the choppiness is the result of waiting for the CPU to finish and transfer it to the GPU.

 

[thekev]

When it comes to data crunch I don't deny it is the CPU, but once the data is crunched and needs to be pushed to the screen, it is not the CPU that pushes it out, it is the GPU. The GPU has to figure out where to put what.

In those examples you're right, the gpu still displays it. It's just that the gpu load was very moderate there in that it wouldn't be a viable method of increasing performance. Obviously CS has started to change in that regard. It would help if these applications migrate to a newer OpenGL standard. Given how many developers stuck to an old standard on OSX, I wouldn't just call it collective laziness.

 

[JohnDoe98]

I guess you didn't read or comprehend this:



I think, today's CPUs are multi-core and have a nice boost to them. Now, go troll along.

But the browsers aren't coded to take advantage of multi-core, so turns out you are the troll. Plus you just conceded the problem was the CPU. Way to contradict yourself.

 

[jav6454]

But the choppiness is the result of waiting for the CPU to finish and transfer it to the GPU.

Waiting for what? The CPU is fast to do math. The GPU is the one choking.

In those examples you're right, the gpu still displays it. It's just that the gpu load was very moderate there in that it wouldn't be a viable method of increasing performance. Obviously CS has started to change in that regard. It would help if these applications migrate to a newer OpenGL standard. Given how many developers stuck to an old standard on OSX, I wouldn't just call it collective laziness.

I never said laziness.

But the browsers aren't coded to take advantage of multi-core, so turns out you are the troll.

And that's my fault? Seriously, websites have to push technology, not stay tied to old ancient and archaic standards. That's why the web never developed under IE6

 

[Eidorian]

But the browsers aren't coded to take advantage of multi-core, so turns out you are the troll. Plus you just conceded the problem was the CPU. Wait to contradict yourself.

Maybe we should change the MR article to "Retina MacBook Pro Pushes the Limits of Single Threaded Web Page Rendering."

As Anandtech mentioned, Mountain Lion is better. So why again today?

 

[JohnDoe98]

Waiting for what? The CPU is fast to do math. The GPU is the one choking.

Already forgot this right?

"every single image is decompressed on the CPU before being handed off to the GPU."

And that's my fault? Seriously, websites have to push technology, not stay tied to old ancient and archaic standards. That's why the web never developed under IE6

Didn't say was your fault, I said your complaints about the GPU were nonsense.
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Maybe we should change the MR article to "Retina MacBook Pro Pushes the Limits Single Threaded Web Page Rendering."

Yep

 

[Eduardo R.]

I hope in a couple years every tablet/phone/computer maker puts these high res screens on them. After using the iPad 3 and rMBP it's impossible to go back to something not retina.

I completely agree. It's truly amazing what a difference it makes.

 

[TwinMonkeys]

Hmm... This is a little bit frustrating. I NEED a laptop for college this year (current is a 08 MBP on its last legs). I'm most likely going for the MBPR simply because it's barely cheaper to get the MBP with the specs I want. Frustrating knowing Apple decided to ship with hardware that isn't ready./sigh.

I would get the air. I do plenty of professional work on there and sometimes it gets pushed to the limit. No retina display, but you shouldn't notice it because the display still is very nice.

That being said, I'm going to wait until the next revision of the MacBook Pro before considering it as the Air I have from last year is still good enough.

 

[jav6454]

Already forgot this right?

"every single image is decompressed on the CPU before being handed off to the GPU."

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Yep

So single threaded performance is an excuse for insufficient CPU? Dude, get serious. Apple made patch work. A real solution would leverage everything the hardware has to offer, which it doesn't.

Choking happens somewhere due to insufficient multi-threaded solutions. GPU is being choked on dumb patch work. The CPU is not struggling, never does Anand say the CPU (all four threads) is being stressed 100% during page views and scrolling.

He does say a single core is stressed:

Some elements of drawing in Safari for example aren’t handled by the GPU. Quickly scrolling up and down on the AnandTech home page will peg one of the four IVB cores in the rMBP at 100%:

However, this just shows the patch work Apple did to sell.

 

[JohnDoe98]

However, this just shows the patch work Apple did to sell.

Patch work that Anandtech applauds Apple for, ultimately contributing to the Editor's award, which would have been silver if the computer was released with Mountain Lion. Sounds pretty impressive to me.

 

[Eidorian]

Patch work that Anandtech applauds Apple for, ultimately contributing to the Editor's award, which would have been silver if the computer was released with Mountain Lion. Sounds pretty impressive to me.

Believe me there are enough other factors for giving a bronze award. I would be willing to overlook the webpage rendering for that or use another browser.

It feels like a rush to market when there is little competition in that space unless you consider bizarro world customs or workstations. 1080p on 15" (unscaled) makes my eyes hurt but there are others where it is not a problem. I will not even mention Sony and their sub-15" ventures.

 

[Bubba Satori]

On the desktop front you are looking at a GTX 670/680 for this kind of power in 3D. I know this is on the 2D/desktop rendering side but going from 1356 shaders down to 384 and at lower clocks is going have a large impact.

1440 x 900 or 900p is going to be the native turf for a GT 640/650M

Yep. Maybe the next rev will get an underclocked 670/680 that will meet the thermal requirments of the new chassis.
So close, yet so far. Oh well...

 

[jav6454]

Patch work that Anandtech applauds Apple for, ultimately contributing to the Editor's award, which would have been silver if the computer was released with Mountain Lion. Sounds pretty impressive to me.

I'll give Apple that it is impressive but inefficient nonetheless. Working a single core to the extreme is just pure (this time I'll say it) lazy.

We have a 4 core monster being put into each of those Retinas. Why not use the multi-cores? Better yet, why not use hyper threading to an advantage?

The patch work is impressive as it sells what Apple made (Retina screen). But for me, as a prosumer, it is not impressive. It is a piss poor excuse. And no, the Silver required not only Mountain Lion, but the other software programs to be fully upgraded as well. So, it would have taken much more for that.

Believe me there are enough other factors for giving a bronze award. I would be willing to overlook the webpage rendering for that or use another browser.

Agreed.

 

[Bauer24]

I hope in a couple years every tablet/phone/computer maker puts these high res screens on them. After using the iPad 3 and rMBP it's impossible to go back to something not retina.

#firstworldproblems

 

[kiljoy616]

Can't wait for a macbook air with similar specs.

 

[JohnDoe98]

The patch work is impressive as it sells what Apple made (Retina screen). But for me, as a prosumer, it is not impressive. It is a piss poor excuse.

Thanks for your highly sought opinion, it's good we have experts like you to help inform us, rather than relying on things like this:

The credit Apple deserves for the display extends beyond simply pushing LG to get a panel out on time and in large enough quantities. There’s a tremendous amount of software work that Apple put into making the Retina experience work under OS X. The OS and several key applications have been updated to properly support the MacBook Pro’s Retina Display, and things can only get better from here. Mountain Lion will improve performance and I would expect at least a few key app updates over the next year to bring increased Retina awareness.

There’s also the behind the scenes work Apple put in to make all of this happen. The pressure on the GPU vendors, as well as taking matters into its own hands with writing scaling and filtering routines to deliver a good experience are all noteworthy.

It’s because all of this that I’m doing something I’ve never done before in an Apple review. We rarely give out Editor’s Choice awards at AnandTech, and I’m quite possibly the stingiest purveyor of them. I feel that being overly generous with awards diminishes their value. In this case, all of the effort Apple has put into bringing a Retina Display to the MacBook Pro is deserving of one.

I’m giving the MacBook Pro with Retina Display our bronze Editor’s Choice award. Making it the first Mac to ever receive one.

 

[AZREOSpecialist]

Basically it should run the fastest at the 2880*1800 resolution due to no scaling algorithms being used at all. What causes this "lag" is scaling when you use different resolutions. Lion renders the page at quadruple resolution and then downscales, which is a lot of work on the CPU. But if you run it at native resolution then it should be the fastest possible. I hope that the retina resolution through the HDPI mode is as fast as the native resolution as well because that's what most people will use.

It's 2012 for goodness sake, why isn't the GPU handling scaling? After all, isn't that one of the tasks a GPU is good at doing?

 

[samjj8]

Like people MUST use the retina display at all times on the MBP. It's a really nice addition, but if you are experience lagging during everyday internet surfing, turn the resolution down. I doubt you would notice a substantial difference in quality on a 15" screen. Same goes for gaming, I am sure it would look good enough on 1440x900. The way they have done the pricing is sneaky tbh, they have made the upper end 15" the same price as the lower end retina. Which one to go for...