Revamped Logic On The Way?

[Mr Skills]

At this point, isn't Logic the only Apple app that still uses copy protection beyond serial numbers?

For users, there's an even bigger advantage if they just go to serial numbers like their other apps. FCS is more expensive but isn't copy protected.

Good point - not protected at all is, of course, even better. Although I'm not sure where that would leave me in terms of using on multiple machines.

 

[milo]

Good point - not protected at all is, of course, even better. Although I'm not sure where that would leave me in terms of using on multiple machines.

You just install it on multiple machines. If you're the only one using it, you're only using it on one machine at a time so you're following the license agreement.

 

[Mr Skills]

It does get a little more complicated though. It means I technically should uninstall Logic off someone else's machine when I leave, even though I might be going back there in a month. But it's not a biggie. Anything is better than software authorisation that hooks into your system!

 

[surferfromuk]

That's not really true, since they were taking code from a third party, updating for intel probably required some major rewriting. It's unfortunate that work had to go into that and not improving the program, but it's work that had to be done.

Not to mention that 8 (or whatever it is called) has been underway for who knows how long. It's not that apple has done nothing, it's that they've showed nothing to customers.

Fair point. I don't see Apple releasing a two bit shoddy app. Let's hope the first genuine Apple make-over is breathtaking..

 

[Mr Skills]

Fair point. I don't see Apple releasing a two bit shoddy app. Let's hope the first genuine Apple make-over is breathtaking..

My guess? It will be breathtaking, but incomplete for Pros - think OSX 10.0 or Aperture 1.0 or Pages 1.0. But after a couple of years, Logic support will wane as the new software becomes complete, but remains breathtaking 🙂

 

[DMann]

Logic 8

My guess? It will be breathtaking, but incomplete for Pros - think OSX 10.0 or Aperture 1.0 or Pages 1.0. But after a couple of years, Logic support will wane as the new software becomes complete, but remains breathtaking 🙂

...And breathtaking it shall be🙄

 

[Mr Skills]

...And breathtaking it shall be🙄

I can dream 😛

 

[peletrane]

I originally bought Logic 6.0, then I got the 7.0 upgrade. Assuming they sell the 8.0 upgrade to prior owners, I'll get that too.


Question: if I get a new Mac (I currently have a 3 year old PBG4), would I need to install the original version 6.0 on the new Mac and then install both upgrades??

Speculation question #2: would anyone imagine the PBG4 specs being too slow to run the anticpated Logic 8.0, when ever it may come out??

 

[shikimo]

According to a blog posting (translated from original French version) getting increasing interest around the Mac web, Apple's professional audio workstation product, Logic, is being redesigned. The new version, reportedly set to use a different name, is supposedly heavily dependent on Mac OS 10.5 "Leopard" features, and will require the new OS to run. Also mentioned is the possibility of Apple using previous patents in the new version to provide tactile feedback.

According to the site, the revamped version would be launched at Frankfurt's MusikMesse, which runs from March 28-31. However, Apple currently does not plan to attend MusikMesse.

At the present time, we do not feel these claims have much substance, and post them to page 2 for interest's sake only.

I just read the original text of this, and unless the blogger is being sarcastic in a way that's even too extreme for French people, he's actually claiming to know that Logic's new incarnation will NOT be released at Musikmesse. He goes on to say a bunch of stuff that is adequately translated without mentioning any other date predictions, and then in fact recommends at the very end that we all wait for Leopard and everything will unfold from there.

I don't know #$@# about Logic, but I think there might be a little miscommunication at the heart of this thread...

 

[milo]

I originally bought Logic 6.0, then I got the 7.0 upgrade. Assuming they sell the 8.0 upgrade to prior owners, I'll get that too.


Question: if I get a new Mac (I currently have a 3 year old PBG4), would I need to install the original version 6.0 on the new Mac and then install both upgrades??

Speculation question #2: would anyone imagine the PBG4 specs being too slow to run the anticpated Logic 8.0, when ever it may come out??

The upgrade disks include a full install, you don't need any earlier disks.

If you're happy with G4 performance now, hopefully it won't be much different with 8. But there is the possibility that a major rewrite (especially something created from scratch) may result in an app that has higher system requirements. I'm thinking of Soundtrack pro (an absolute pig, even on a quad) and Aperture.

 

[k2k koos]

Anyone else find it strange that three booths are reserved for Apple Computers Industries, LTD. when they probably won't be talking specifically about a computer and their name is now just Apple, Inc.?

That's weird...

Apple computers industries LTD, is the irish branch indeed, and low and behold, they have an important music product development department there...... maybe that's a clue....

 

[k2k koos]

This could be because the program was originally a windows program? Logic has been around a long time: http://logic-users.org/

No it wasn't: It started life as Notator on the Atari ST, then became Notator Logic, then the prefix Notator was dropped, then Atari died, and Emagic moved Logic to the Mac with version 1.6 . It wasn't until version 2.0 that a PC version came out, which, initially couldn't do as much as the Mac version, but this was eventually put right, and it gained all the functionallity of the MAc version with Logic 4.
All of the above info, you can also find on the site you refer too.

 

[strask]

Here here.

Indeed - I started on Logic 4 in Windows.




When I say Pro Tools is more Mac-like, I'm talking about so much more than just buttons and boxes. It's the whole ethos; the whole experience. Think about what Apple are famous for. While other people keep adding features, thinking that "more features = more value", Apple tread a different path: they think about the actual experience of using the program. Logic is the opposite of the normal Apple philosophy: bulging with features, but bloated and often unnecessarily complex. Pro Tools feels like people have sat down and beaten their brains out to find the simplest way of doing something. Logic feels like they've sat down and gone "let's add more stuff!".

Not that it's what I was talking about, but I do also think that the basic look and feel of PT is more mac-like too (er... menus in the window title-bars?). I love Logic, I use it every day but as I said before, I also curse it every day. Had it been designed from scratch by Apple there is simply no way it would work anything like it does - for better or worse.



I respectfully disagree that Logic can do all things audio. I am typing this reply in between loading up Melodyne and Pro Tools so that I can import audio and do stuff that Logic can't. If Logic did all things audio, it would save me so much time! Also, what it does do in audio, it generally does in a slower less intuitive way - all those little details that Apple would have worked at had it been their own app.



Actually, it's the other way round - there was no MIDI at all in Pro Tools until about 5 years ago. Since they added it, they have only kept increasing its' capability. It is still nowhere near Logic, but it is probably closer to Logic on MIDI than Logic is on audio.



Fair point - PT does feel the heat from Logic's huge wealth of included stuff. But I believe Logic feels the heat from Pro Tools' user experience.



I don't think anyone's doubting how big it is. The audio world is full of people using Logic. But most of them enjoy a good bitch about it. 😀
.
.

I use Logic almost everyday but I curse it just as often. I learned both ProTools and Logic on jobs. PT I learned when I had to do rough mixes for an album worth of songs for a film. Through little more than observation while recording and a few references to the guide book, I was able to mix the entire album quite well to the point that the rough mixes were copied at the director's insistence when doing the final mixes. This was a great user-friendly experience.

I learned Logic on a job, too, and it was torture, with constant calls to friends and tech support as I tried to figure out how the heck anything worked. Logic has become my main writing platform but when I need to do any detailed work in audio, I go right back to ProTools.

DP has a few great features for film composers that I know of only from other composer friends of mine belittling Logic for lacking them. Apple would be wise to emulate these. It shouldn't be too hard.

Other than that, if they could keep all the plug-ins just as they are and make the set up and user experience in Logic fun, easy and pretty, they would sell far more of this program. Right now I would say they focus on current users buying upgrades more than people switching from other programs or upgrading from Garage Band to make this program profitable. If they improve the usability that balance would change.

 

[strask]

You just install it on multiple machines. If you're the only one using it, you're only using it on one machine at a time so you're following the license agreement.

The dongle is fairly important if you are working and move around. Part of being a working musician/writer is being itinerant. Its great to have Logic on different machines in different places so one can show up with the XSKey and go. Studios, a dying species I know, often load Logic and DP on their computers so that users can show up with their sample library and key and go.

 

[A is jump]

So many people complaining about how complicated Logic is, and how it NEEDS an overhaul. frankly, in terms of functionality, it does everything I need it to do. I don't find it to be buggy either. never had a crash... I suppose an occasional need to relaunch core audio, but that hasn't been consistant or often.

I would like to see an update, but Considering how old the current version is... it really stands up to the competition. its by far my favorite environment for production too.

can anyone name something Pro-tools can do that logic can not?

 

[Mr Skills]

So many people complaining about how complicated Logic is, and how it NEEDS an overhaul. frankly, in terms of functionality, it does everything I need it to do. I don't find it to be buggy either. never had a crash... I suppose an occasional need to relaunch core audio, but that hasn't been consistant or often.

I would like to see an update, but Considering how old the current version is... it really stands up to the competition. its by far my favorite environment for production too.

can anyone name something Pro-tools can do that logic can not?

A few off the top of my head (and taking only software features into account, to be fair):
- beat detective
- sample-accurate audio editing
- sample-accurate midi editing
- audiosuite (region-based plug-ins)
- advanced crossfade functionality
- drag-to-timestretch tool
- importing data from other sessions
- autosave
- proper region-independent audio editing

But this is not really the point. If you read the thread carefully, you'll see that most complaints are not about features - if you want to bean-count, Logic can out-feature anything. The problem (uncharacteristically for Apple) is implementation. Just try zooming in/out in Logic, or mainting edit/mix groups, or doing heavy drum-editing. Compared to Pro Tools, it slows you down in a thousand little ways - all those tiny little design decisions that you would expect Apple, of all people, to sweat about.

I don't want to sound like a Logic-basher here. If Pro Tools did everything I need, I wouldn't care this much. But the fact is I need to use both for my livelihood and I am waiting for the day that one comfortably does everything, and does it with Apple-style ease and flow.

 

[hobiehobo]

A few off the top of my head (and taking only software features into account, to be fair):
- beat detective
- sample-accurate audio editing
- sample-accurate midi editing
- audiosuite (region-based plug-ins)
- advanced crossfade functionality
- drag-to-timestretch tool
- importing data from other sessions
- autosave
- proper region-independent audio editing

But this is not really the point. If you read the thread carefully, you'll see that most complaints are not about features - if you want to bean-count, Logic can out-feature anything. The problem (uncharacteristically for Apple) is implementation. Just try zooming in/out in Logic, or mainting edit/mix groups, or doing heavy drum-editing. Compared to Pro Tools, it slows you down in a thousand little ways - all those tiny little design decisions that you would expect Apple, of all people, to sweat about.

I don't want to sound like a Logic-basher here. If Pro Tools did everything I need, I wouldn't care this much. But the fact is I need to use both for my livelihood and I am waiting for the day that one comfortably does everything, and does it with Apple-style ease and flow.

SO TRUE, Mr. Skills! I've never heard it said better - "slows you down in a thousand little ways." Dang!

So BRING IT ON, Apple. Show us. Show Emagic (the ones that either quit or got shoved out and are living somewhere near the Musikmesse in Germany). Show ProTools. We'll all love that multi-touch, UBER-INTUITIVE new product that breaks free of the "logical" and into the intuitive.

B R I N G I T !

 

[DMann]

Logic 8

A few off the top of my head (and taking only software features into account, to be fair):
- beat detective
- sample-accurate audio editing
- sample-accurate midi editing
- audiosuite (region-based plug-ins)
- advanced crossfade functionality
- drag-to-timestretch tool
- importing data from other sessions
- autosave
- proper region-independent audio editing

But this is not really the point. If you read the thread carefully, you'll see that most complaints are not about features - if you want to bean-count, Logic can out-feature anything. The problem (uncharacteristically for Apple) is implementation. Just try zooming in/out in Logic, or mainting edit/mix groups, or doing heavy drum-editing. Compared to Pro Tools, it slows you down in a thousand little ways - all those tiny little design decisions that you would expect Apple, of all people, to sweat about.

I don't want to sound like a Logic-basher here. If Pro Tools did everything I need, I wouldn't care this much. But the fact is I need to use both for my livelihood and I am waiting for the day that one comfortably does everything, and does it with Apple-style ease and flow.

When Apple acquired Logic from E-Magic, it had a relatively limited time to "tidy up" Logic's environment. During that time, however, it became strides better in terms of ease of use, accuracy, intuitiveness, and fluidity. I can only imagine, now, that Apple has had sufficient time to delve deeper into the app, re-design the interface, streamline redundancies, and offer more direct control over editing, dragging, and re-sizing in a manner which Apple is renowned for. 🙂

 

[Mr Skills]

When Apple acquired Logic from E-Magic, it had a relatively limited time to "tidy up" Logic's environment. During that time, however, it became strides better in terms of ease of use, accuracy, intuitiveness, and fluidity. I can only imagine, now, that Apple has had sufficient time to delve deeper into the app, re-design the interface, streamline redundancies, and offer more direct control over editing, dragging, and re-sizing in a manner which Apple is renowned for. 🙂

This is a completely fair comment - it's easy to forget how much better the interface is now than it was. But I suppose that's because Logic 7.0 was so buggy and unstable that by the time they (mostly) fixed it with 7.1 I had become blasé about the new features! 😛

Also, as someone else mentioned (might have been a different thread) they have simultaneously had to shift a truly ancient code-base (that presumably was not XCode) to Intel, which may explain some of the huge difficulties they appear to have had. I can only hope that in the intervening months, efforts have been shifted towards 'doing the Apple thing' with Logic.

Incidentally, your phrase "streamline redundancies" really hit the nail on the head. Logic is a case study of how too much choice can be a bad thing.

 

[Phillip K]

The upgrade disks include a full install, you don't need any earlier disks.

If you're happy with G4 performance now, hopefully it won't be much different with 8. But there is the possibility that a major rewrite (especially something created from scratch) may result in an app that has higher system requirements. I'm thinking of Soundtrack pro (an absolute pig, even on a quad) and Aperture.

I have Powerbook 550Mhz. I do not even attempt to run logic on that. If you have one of the faster ones you should be ok for some stuff.
Remember only Logic 7.2 or later will run on Intel Macs.

 

[Phillip K]

According to a friend who is a Logic Trainer, Apple has pulled the certifications of all Logic 6 trainers. My friend has told me that this only
happens when a new version is coming out so as to keep the certifications
current.
This would also point to the fact that they will not change the name or they would have changed the Logic 7 certifications as well.

 

[Phillip K]

Logic's big problem for me is that it betrays its MIDI-only origins so blatantly.
The Environment, for example. Great for hard-core MIDI (linking things together, arpeggiators, all that nonsense); unnecessary bloat for audio.

You are correct about the midi and you also do not need to go into it if you do not want. It is not bloat for audio since midi has so little overhead.

What audio routing options are possible in Logic that are not possible in the simpler, environment-less Pro Tools?

You can do multi channel outs on your multi channel virtual instruments. You then have access to busses and auxes.

Why is it ever useful for me to have two copies of the same audio track in the environment?

You are starting to sound like a novice Logic user, Tracks are not in the environment, audio objects are in the environment. Tracks are in the arrange window. You could never have two identical audio ojects in the environment. You could have different tracks in the arrange connected to one audio object in the environment. You can also pack tracks into folders.

Audio editing, as well. Despite the clunky fudge known as the "Marquis Tool", Logic still treats Audio regions like MIDI regions, that must be chopped before they can be moved.

Wrong, they can be moved without "chopping" them. You cut them when you want to non destructively edit them. You can move or resize them with out cutting them. This is really straight forward unless you have not learned the program, which seems apparent.

 

[Mr Skills]

You are correct about the midi and you also do not need to go into it if you do not want. It is not bloat for audio since midi has so little overhead.

How on earth would I do advanced audio routing in Logic without touching the environment? How is MIDI overhead relevant to the use of audio objects in the Environment? I define "bloat" as more than just processor overhead. It is anything which is larger or more unwieldy than it needs to be to get the job done.

You can do multi channel outs on your multi channel virtual instruments. You then have access to busses and auxes.

You can also do this in Pro Tools. Without needing the Environment.

You are starting to sound like a novice Logic user... This is really straight forward unless you have not learned the program, which seems apparent.

Feel free to disagree with me - I enjoy a good debate, and am open to being persuaded (I have already conceded points in this very thread). But please do not stifle debate by picking me up on semantics (accidentally saying "track" instead of "object") and then using that to belittle my ability as a professional. I give you the benefit of the doubt in this debate and assume that you are participating as an experienced user of both Logic and Pro Tools (since we are comparing). Please extend me the same courtesy.

Tracks are not in the environment, audio objects are in the environment. Tracks are in the arrange window.

There are different types of audio object. I meant "audio track object" as opposed to an aux, bus, output etc.

You could never have two identical audio ojects in the environment.

Alt+drag an audio object in the environment. Voila! Two identical audio objects. This has caused confusion in the studio before when someone who is not too Logic-literate has an idea and tries to do something while I am out of the room. With Pro Tools even the most clutzy artist/producer can try out their idea without too much trouble. In Logic they end up causing problems.

Wrong, they can be moved without "chopping" them. You cut them when you want to non destructively edit them. You can move or resize them with out cutting them. This is really straight forward unless you have not learned the program, which seems apparent.

So if I have one long region, say a minute long, and I want to copy 10 seconds from the middle of it, I can do it without chopping? Even if I alt-drag using the marquis tool, it actually chops the region (yes, non-destructively, I know) and then sews it back up again once I've completed the operation. Except that under some circumstances it forgets to sew them back together.

Please understand, I am not trolling Logic here. I love it and would not base so much of my livelihood on it if it was not an amazing, and professional, program. But that does not mean that there are not significant areas where the competition has it squarely beaten. If this was a Digidesign forum, I could just as easily find lists of things that are better about Logic - I can happily argue this from either side. The truth is, I am waiting for the day that either Logic or Pro Tools does everything I need it to do. I am passionate because I want Logic to succeed, not because I want to bash your favourite program. 🙂



.

 

[pounce]

i'm clearly in good company when i say i'm anxiously awaiting some user interface improvements. i spend most of my time in DP and PT, and i simply have never felt like i had gotten the speed in Logic that i had in the other programs. i keep finding out that it does everything i want, but i still have to work harder than i think i should just to find features and preferences and so forth. so a more apple like Logic could easily get me to totally ditch the other programs, and that is my hope. spend my time basically in the one program, and the horse i'm betting on is logic! come on apple, give it to me.

ps: for the love of mithra please finally release a decent version of soundiver.

 

[herodian]

..Just try zooming in/out in Logic...

i'm so glad i'm not the only one. it seems so random sometimes.