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Revamped Logic On The Way?

There was a comment in Sound on Sound a month or so ago, I can't remember the exact wording but it was along the lines of "I can't say whether a new version is or isn't coming soon or whether it will or won't be called Logic".

Though the way I read it they were saying "a new version is coming soon and it won't be called Logic" without actually saying it.

Sound on Sound is pretty well respected, in the UK at least, so I wouldn't be at all surprised if did have some inside information.
 
Mr Skills said:
ogic.

Incidentally, your phrase "streamline redundancies" really hit the nail on the head. Logic is a case study of how too much choice can be a bad thing.
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Someone will have to list some specific examples because the "redandencies" that I am assuming your talking about are not as redundent as one might assume. They are there, I believe, because different people work in different ways.

I personally do not use the Event List though I know of many who do and find it useful. I prefer to work in the Matrix editor. Since the same thing could be done in each editor is this reduntent? Same with the Score editor, is it redundent? Excuse me if this is not what your refering to.
 
Mr Skills said:
How on earth would I do advanced audio routing in Logic without touching the environment? How is MIDI overhead relevant to the use of audio objects in the Environment? I define "bloat" as more than just processor overhead. It is anything which is larger or more unwieldy than it needs to be to get the job done.
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You made sound to me as if you were dismissing the environment as a whole seperate to audio.



Mr Skills said:
Feel free to disagree with me - I enjoy a good debate, and am open to being persuaded (I have already conceded points in this very thread). But please do not stifle debate by picking me up on semantics (accidentally saying "track" instead of "object") and then using that to belittle my ability as a professional. I give you the benefit of the doubt in this debate and assume that you are participating as an experienced user of both Logic and Pro Tools (since we are comparing). Please extend me the same courtesy.
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Sorry I was having a Mr. Hyde moment.

Mr Skills said:
There are different types of audio object. I meant "audio track object" as opposed to an aux, bus, output etc.
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These kinds of missunderstandings happen in this form of communication.


Mr Skills said:
Alt+drag an audio object in the environment. Voila! Two identical audio objects. This has caused confusion in the studio before when someone who is not too Logic-literate has an idea and tries to do something while I am out of the room. With Pro Tools even the most clutzy artist/producer can try out their idea without too much trouble. In Logic they end up causing problems.
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These are not two identical but different objects. They are in fact
the same object. Anything done to one will be done the other. It would be useful to do this when you want that object represented on another layer of the environment but do not want your audio layer looking like a patchwork with ojects seemingly missing. This way you would not have to cable through layers wondering where the cable is going after it leaves that layer.


Mr Skills said:
So if I have one long region, say a minute long, and I want to copy 10 seconds from the middle of it, I can do it without chopping? Even if I alt-drag using the marquis tool, it actually chops the region (yes, non-destructively, I know) and then sews it back up again once I've completed the operation. Except that under some circumstances it forgets to sew them back together.
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Add a adjacent track if one is not there. Alt drag (no marquis tool) to copy the 1 min track onto it. Resize the new region bringing in each end so you are left with your 10 seconds. No need to glue it to anything. If there is a click a smoll fade when zoomed in with the fade tool to cover the click and your done.
 
Phillip K said:
Add a adjacent track if one is not there. Alt drag (no marquis tool) to copy the 1 min track onto it. Resize the new region bringing in each end so you are left with your 10 seconds. No need to glue it to anything. If there is a click a smoll fade when zoomed in with the fade tool to cover the click and your done.
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You've kind of made my point for me here. I particularly enjoy the phrase "and you're done" after such a complex method! What's wrong with
1) drag with the mouse to select an area (could be a region, within a region, across multiple regions, across multiple tracks, including empty space - doesn't matter) and copy
2) click anywhere you want on the screen and paste
3) ... there is no step 3!

I completely understand that there are benefits to Logic's complexity, but none of those benefits are on the audio side. Pro Tools is not only more comprehensive and feature-rich when it comes to audio, it also manages to be vastly simpler and more intuitive. The music industry is full of people who come from the exclusively-tape era and can now get by on Pro Tools, but you cannot survive professionally by 'getting by' on Logic. You know it or you don't. This is to my advantage in some ways - I have got good work before simply by being the only person available who was not scared of Logic.

I regret that this debate has forced me into a position where I sound like a Pro Tools fanboy and a Logic basher. Please believe me when I say that I can list just as many things that I love about Logic, and that drive me up the wall about Pro Tools. But while Logic has huge advantages in a great many areas, audio recording and editing is simply not one of those areas. When I am sitting on my own in front of the computer, it's Logic all the way; when I have a bunch of musicians staring through the glass in a £1000/day studio - no way*. My time is their money and all those little annoyances that you might not even notice in other circumstances suddenly really matter.

* = assuming I have the choice, of course - although it's rare for a client to insist on Logic anyway.


NOTE: one thing that has just occurred to me is that I am naturally thinking of full Pro Tools - I accept that the gap is narrowed (though not closed) if you are thinking of Pro Tools LE.
 
I should also mention that Logic is notoriously unreliable for audio file management and transferring sessions between studios/rigs/continents.

And before you give me the obvious answer, yes I do know how to manage files correctly! But this does not help me when I receive a session from someone who is less careful. Pro Tools is a little more idiot-proof in this respect.
 
I guess now I know...

As a film composer/record producer/keyboardist/programmer who has done over 250 albums and 25 films with Logic, I am surprised to hear that I've been working on an unwieldy system.

I don't know what my problem is, but I am completely satisfied with Logic and it's handling of audio.

also, the comment about Logic being difficult to share audio files with other platforms surprised me, as we do this around the world on a weekly basis with no problems.

It is very common for people who work in ProTools who work with me to ask "how did you do THAT?!!" They assume that Logic is some Rubik's cube.
To the contrary, I find ProTools' MIDI setup at least 10 years behind Logic's!

Anyway, I guess my point is, if you think there are "too many features," use someting else!

We're really happy Logic users here.
 
you guys need to learn Logic before doing these comparisons...

Mr Skills said:
A few off the top of my head (and taking only software features into account, to be fair):
- beat detective
- sample-accurate audio editing
- sample-accurate midi editing
- audiosuite (region-based plug-ins)
- advanced crossfade functionality
- drag-to-timestretch tool
- importing data from other sessions
- autosave
- proper region-independent audio editing
___________
Dude, is this a joke? Logic has a beat detective-like plugin, you can do sample-accurate audio editing, can drag-to timestretch, import data from other sessions....there is a free shareware download to autosave, and what do you mean by "advanced crossfade functionality?"

I never cease to be amazed at the limitations people think this program has. Open the manual! Do your research!
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nickweston said:
Mr Skills said:
A few off the top of my head (and taking only software features into account, to be fair):
- beat detective
- sample-accurate audio editing
- sample-accurate midi editing
- audiosuite (region-based plug-ins)
- advanced crossfade functionality
- drag-to-timestretch tool
- importing data from other sessions
- autosave
- proper region-independent audio editing
___________
Dude, is this a joke? Logic has a beat detective-like plugin, you can do sample-accurate audio editing, can drag-to timestretch, import data from other sessions....there is a free shareware download to autosave, and what do you mean by "advanced crossfade functionality?"

I never cease to be amazed at the limitations people think this program has. Open the manual! Do your research!
Click to expand...

You certainly can't do sample accurate editing in the arrange window, which is unfortunate. I don't think it does sample accurate midi at all. Logic does do crossfade adjustments similar to PT.

How does Logic do timestretch via drag? I just looked at the manual and there was no mention of it.
Click to expand...
 
BetaTesters Info

How long have i waited for Logic to keep up with software like Pro Tools or even Cubase. everyone seems to have passed in evolution and development. I started working with Logic 5 on PC and i guess its the same thing with PCs and :apple:. If you`re a logic user, you hate cubase etc... if you`re a mac user you hate PCs... and if you`re a PT user, you are cocky about it.

anyways, a friend of mine used to be a beta tester when it still was "emagic logic audio" he told me that everything is bad since apple took emagic over. he even said that apple did not want them to work on improvements.
but that was quite sometime ago.

the booths at the musikmesse bring back a smile to my face.
i really hope that they get out a revamped logic pro app with features like
audiowarping, drum editor, arrangement tracks and stuff. and i`d like to see apple buy celemony and their vocal processing features.

i have installed XP on my :apple: because i switched to cubase (even though i hated the idea) because i realized it is just plain better. i dont want to have to have windows on my :apple:. maybe apple should buy steinberg too :)

right now, when i have recorded a drum session i`d burn it to dvd and then give it to a friend of mine who owns pro tools, he runs beatdetector ( or whatever it is called ) on it and its fine.

and then audiowarping in my opinion is one of the greatest inventions in audio editing and steinberg has the best engine. this is so great and saves lots of time. i use it to edit sloppy guitar and vocal tracks but i guess thats not of any interest for you :)

features like that have to be integrated into the next version of logic to make me switch back.

by the way... I like the GUI the way it is?? whats wrong with it??
 
nickweston said:
As a film composer/record producer/keyboardist/programmer who has done over 250 albums and 25 films with Logic, I am surprised to hear that I've been working on an unwieldy system.

I don't know what my problem is, but I am completely satisfied with Logic and it's handling of audio.
Click to expand...

As I have already said, I really, really regret that this thread has forced me into a position of sounding like a Logic-hater. To make my position abundantly clear: I love Logic. I think it is a superb system. I use it to make my living. But I still maintain that there are certain areas where it could be much better - those very areas, by coincidence, where Pro Tools tends to me strong (maybe other systems too, but I am only a 'power user' of Logic and PT). Just because I don't think Logic is perfect does not mean I hate it! I hope that is clear now. Having said that....

nickweston said:
also, the comment about Logic being difficult to share audio files with other platforms surprised me, as we do this around the world on a weekly basis with no problems.
Click to expand...

I was careful to point out that this should no be an issue when one professional sends data to another. Sadly, I am not always dealing with professionals! If an artist has been working at home and is haphazard with their file management, it can cause nightmares when they bring their Logic sessions into the studio. Pro Tools has simpler, more automatic file management where less can go wrong. Logic has made big strides in this area, although I always advise people to make a new project and resist the temptation to work straight on the autoload song.


nickweston said:
It is very common for people who work in ProTools who work with me to ask "how did you do THAT?!!" They assume that Logic is some Rubik's cube.
To the contrary, I find ProTools' MIDI setup at least 10 years behind Logic's!
Click to expand...

Again, I completely agree and have already said so in this thread. My gripes with Logic are specifically to do with manipulation of audio.


nickweston said:
Anyway, I guess my point is, if you think there are "too many features," use someting else!

We're really happy Logic users here.
Click to expand...

So am I! But I could easily be even happier :)



nickweston said:
Dude, is this a joke? Logic has a beat detective-like plugin, you can do sample-accurate audio editing, can drag-to timestretch, import data from other sessions....there is a free shareware download to autosave, and what do you mean by "advanced crossfade functionality?"

I never cease to be amazed at the limitations people think this program has. Open the manual! Do your research!
Click to expand...

Please tell me of the Logic equivalent of Beat Detective that is equal in power and speed? And how to do sample accurate editing without having to use the sample editor (which is useless on multi-track items such as drums)? How I can drag to timestretch?

Also, I should have said "more advanced crossfade functionality". As for "open the manual"... I really don't know what to say. I know the work-arounds to these things. I just would rather be working than working around.

If Logic was absolutely perfect in every way, why would they bother with Logic 8 at all? All I am doing is drawing attention to the areas I would like to see work better. :rolleyes:
 
If we're going to see a Logic revision this year, it'll probably be at this event.

Doubt it'll be called Logic though. StudioBand is a nice thought, but then it'll look like a jumped-up version of Garageband, which hopefully won't even scratch the surface of what it actually is.

I liked the idea that Logic Express will become Harmony and Logic Pro will become Perfect Harmony, but I think there'd be issues with that.
 
Hey, a name change is fine with me, as long as they don't call it GarageBand Pro! :)
 
Yes, USB key is fine, just give us the new app. Right now I have no sequenser, as I just wait for the next Logic to arrive until I buy.. And I have too much stuff that is just waiting to be recorded. :)
 
the Environment

I've seen many posts regarding the Environment in Logic. Those afraid of losing it, those wanting it to disappear, almost everyone seems to be open to it's interface being revamped as long as functionality is not sacrificed. For me, the thing that is great about the Environment is how object-oriented and non-arbitrary it is (for the most part). It really lets you create a studio setup, an "environment" that does what you need it to do instead of being limited to some fixed, arbitrary design that was programmed in at the time of development. I'll give you my own personal case-study of what I'm doing with the Environment, and why I'd be in trouble if it goes away. I'm an electronic musician and also an interactive developer. I've been working on a little product in my spare time that takes live midi events, converts them into xml over something called OSC and send that over a network to a computer running Flash. I then have a framework in Flash that allows branded visuals to be triggered in real-time, to these discrete midi events. Press a note on a keyboard or twist a dial and see it happen on a big screen projection on stage, in the studio or online. This is all possible because of the flexible, object-oriented, midi routing capabilities of Logic's Environment. It literally would not be possible any other way. The Environment allows me to create a custom "instrument" on the midi thru of a virtual instrument track and have it's events sent to a virtual midi port that I then grab with my app in Max/Msp. This is really important stuff for we multimedia artists, live performers, etc. It's the kind of thing that in some ways represents the future of music making, the whole integrated, synergistic, interoperability thing. I certainly don't want to see 15 years of progress in this area simply be "un-invented" in one-fell-swoop because some people are annoyed that there is more power lurking under the hood than they personally use or feel comfortable with. The whole xenocentric: "if I don't use it, then it must not be important." Well, believe me there are people out there that are using all that "bloat" as it seems to always be called. The reason it's there is because thousands of industry "headz" over the last 20 years have been asking for these features to achieve an end, and the programmers answered those needs with tools that allowed them to do what they needed to do. A decade ago, this kind of thing was consider progress. These features were not added because the developers were bored and wanted to skip their vacation days. Midi and audio is complex business. It demands a high-level of features to be consider "pro." It disturbs me somewhat, this trend I see, with complexity reduction; I'm all for it, as long as it doesn't mean regressing. It's taken us a long time to get these apps as capable as they are now. Lot's of beta testing and begging and waiting. So, I can't imagine the 15 year plus, EmApple engineer veterans throwing all that away. If so, they'll have to pry that code from the cold, dead hands of some very upset developers that have made Logic one of the most powerful and unique music creation apps. I hope the Environment gets a major overhaul, is made even more object-oriented and intuitive and keeps all the capability it has now. Every last little thing, don't take away, just simplify. For those that think this is not the right direction for Logic, I would respectfully point you in the direction of a ton of less complicated, audio-timestrech-focused apps out there that are cheaper and quite nicely laid out for simplicity and workflow. So EmApple if you're listening, even though audio and time-stretching is very fashionable right now, please don't forget the "sequencer" and midi aspects that Logic is rooted in, and yes that means some kind of "environment."
 
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