I am 51. My wife is 56. The city still very much holds its attraction for us.
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Riddle me this: why are people buying land in the boonies to move out to one day?
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To be fair to most of the pro-rural types in this thread that advocate getting away from crowds and noise, etc., I am what some might classify as 'empathetic'. That is, I derive some of my internal energy from the energy around me. I have always enjoyed going to places where there are crowds (which is why I always liked malls) and 'feeling' the energy of people doing things and being out and about. It's a reason I visit coffee shops as well.
Perhaps I just need a sports drink or another cappucino, IDK. But the energy of crowds (with the exception of very large gatherings such as concerts, etc) has always attracted me.
You can't get that in a rural community. One of the reasons why when Bulletin Board Systems and modems came along in the 80s I jumped on them. It allowed a 14 year old to communicate beyond his rural borders. Forums and internet, phones and devices have since continued to enable that.
I still have other reasons to hate rural and thus will never return on my own, but I know this makes me different than a lot of other people in this country.
Different strokes for different folks. I live in the city. I want out but I'll never get there (wife, work, family etc.). I think there is one core reason for either tendency (rural or city): people. Either you want to be near them or you don't. For the young, the city is best. But having lived my entire life putting up with people, I am now fed up and would certainly be open to living without people being so close for a change (if only in my dreams).
EDIT: In reality, I am not sure I could live without the amenities.
EDIT: In reality, I am not sure I could live without the amenities.
I never had a problem with those rural people who moved far enough out to escape the boundary limits of certain laws. No, my problems were always with those families (and it was families, not just certain people) that believed that the law didn't apply to them or that simply weren't concerned about enforcement.
Those are the ones who have no respect for property lines and your property when they are trespassing upon it. But try and prove it. Property lines may be well marked, but respect for them isn't always.
I was born and raised in the SF Bay Area. Native Californian. When my wife and I retired in 2018, we bailed out. For good. High taxes, cost of living, Politics, you name it, drove us out.
We bought a home in NW Arkansas, the Ozarks. We haven't looked back, not for one second.
The crime rate here is non-existent, no spray painted graffiti anywhere. The people here are
very down to earth and friendly. That phrase "Southern Hospitality" is true. The air is clean, no smog, you can actually see stars at night. A great place to raise kids if you have a young family.
I miss California, especially the beaches. But I left, looking for a better place to live and enjoy life. So far I'd say I (we) made the right decision.
We bought a home in NW Arkansas, the Ozarks. We haven't looked back, not for one second.
The crime rate here is non-existent, no spray painted graffiti anywhere. The people here are
very down to earth and friendly. That phrase "Southern Hospitality" is true. The air is clean, no smog, you can actually see stars at night. A great place to raise kids if you have a young family.
I miss California, especially the beaches. But I left, looking for a better place to live and enjoy life. So far I'd say I (we) made the right decision.
I have quite a few contacts in Arkansas. And although I don’t disagree with what you said, I can also point out the downside, is I’ve heard the mosquitoes are atrocious, the heat alone can exceed over 100° making it unbearable for various months, and there’s quite a bit of poverty in Arkansas, which is why there’s cheaper cost of living. But I do agree with the southern hospitality , being somebody that lived in East-Tennessee for years.
The only thing I want to say about living down in the south, everything moves in s-l-o-w motion. Literally. And the only other drawback that I have a direct observation on, is the workforce experience seems to be to a lesser degree, with not enough training, poorly trained or lacking there-of. This isn’t to denigrate anyone, but I’ve lived in Texas, Tennessee, and I’ve been to Arkansas, and it seems to be prevalent compared to some of the training standards that I see are much higher here in the Midwest. Also, it’s probably one of the reasons I think the quality of the workforce is not on par in states like Arkansas, because their pay is much lower compared to many industries here in the Midwest, where the pay is higher.
NW Arkansas is the exception to the rule. The I-49 corridor (Fayetteville) reminds me a lot of California, say 20-25 years ago. Wages are less here than the Bay Area for sure, but you can still buy a house on a lake for under $200k (that is changing too). Walmart is the big employer here along with JB Hunt. With anything, there are trade-offs for sure. Herds of Deer transverse my property weekly. It gets cold here, last year during the winter it dropped to -15. That was all time low for this area. It gets hot, a bit humid but not as hot as the Central Valley in California we moved from. 110 in the summer was quite common (Fresno).
The fact that you’ve lived in Detroit, but can’t answer this question yourself…?
Widening rural-urban disparities in life expectancy, U.S., 1969-2009 - PubMed
Between 1969 and 2009, residents in metropolitan areas experienced larger gains in life expectancy than those in nonmetropolitan areas, contributing to the widening gap.
pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
and the disparity is growing. Access to healthcare drives a lot of it.
But then, in the boonies, strangers are less likely to relieve themselves outside your front door. Depends on your priorities, I guess….
And the McMansion living you’re describing isn’t really city living. You can’t walk to dinner, but you still have to hear the neighbors’ parties and please the HOA. I suspect the people you’re describing may have preferred rural living all along but compromised on the suburbs because that’s where the better schools are for their kids. Moving to the boonies is the dream that keeps them going until they can finally exit the rat race.
Healthcare is a valid concern when you are rural I bought some land about 2hrs from DC and about 45 minutes from a Trader Joes and Whole Foods. I should be able to eat healthy and have access to world class healthcare the only big drawback is immediate care I would need a life flight for anything really serious that popped up unexpectedly. Less stress though should in theory extend my life but who knows its all a gamble.Widening rural-urban disparities in life expectancy, U.S., 1969-2009 - PubMed
Between 1969 and 2009, residents in metropolitan areas experienced larger gains in life expectancy than those in nonmetropolitan areas, contributing to the widening gap.
and the disparity is growing. Access to healthcare drives a lot of it.
But then, in the boonies, strangers are less likely to relieve themselves outside your front door. Depends on your priorities, I guess….
And the McMansion living you’re describing isn’t really city living. You can’t walk to dinner, but you still have to hear the neighbors’ parties and please the HOA. I suspect the people you’re describing may have preferred rural living all along but compromised on the suburbs because that’s where the better schools are for their kids. Moving to the boonies is the dream that keeps them going until they can finally exit the rat race.
I'd say your experience has many dimensions to it. I don't think there is a simple, all encompassing answer but a lot of the beliefs, values, and emotions that drive Americans' geographic preferences are both deeply rooted in American culture and mythology as well as in societal changes in the United States from the mid 1960s to the present.
Further, the views you hear are going to be heavily influenced by the people you work and socialize with. If they are demographically or psychographically homogenous, you're pretty likely to hear a lot of the same things over and over again.
If you're interested in doing a deeper dive than is possible on an online message board, here are some suggestions to get you started:
Democracy in America (de Tocqueville)
Bowling Alone (Putnam)
Moral Politics (Lakoff)
The Culture of Fear (Glassner)
The New Geography (Kotkin)
Fear of Falling (Ehrenreich)
The Paradox of Choice (Schwartz)
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A question:
Is this "someone" - or are these "someones" - (who announce this purchase) male or female?
I've known people (sometimes, educated professional people with extremely good careers) who - when they approached retirement - stated that they wished to do this - and, who actually did do this, but, they were almost exclusively male.
By way of marked - and striking - contrast, in my experience, their wives suffered/endured/barely tolerated (and sometimes loathed) this change to arcadian rural bliss.
Louis Rossmann of YouTube fame recently moved to a rural area from living in New York City. He just posted on this very topic today. He primarily points to the many downsides of city living and its negative effects on his mental health for his wanting to get away -- in addition to the cost of living. He says he spends less to live better.
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I can see this. I'm a runner, hiker and backpacker who loves to hide in the outdoors, while my wife's idea of camping is staying at a hotel without a hair dryer. She would be very unhappy with rural living, while I would probably do okay with it. The good news for her is I'm not interested in what I would call "deep rural" living.
Inherited a house in rural Va. hate it. Moved an hour away to get conveniences. Cost of living is great, but thats it. Only things to do are work, church and eat. I only stay there on snow days for my job.
I suppose then it comes down to how one defines 'better'.
When we moved out of rural California it was to get better paying jobs and spend less. Moving to a city gave us all that and it's been 'better' for us for the last 22 years.
My inlaws did exactly that, and years ago they bought a large-ish property they moved to when they retired. They used to live in a typical suburban house, now their house is larger and newer, they have their own private lake to fish, a few acres to play farmer on and grow their own veggies, an orchard, there's a local population of deer in their forest, they have their own makeshift shooting range for plinking, property taxes are much lower than where they lived before... The list goes on. They are not city people so for them –jobs aside– there's many downsides to living in a city, and now they are retired so that's doesn't matter anymore. Medical services is a factor to consider, definitely, but their attitude in that regard is that they'll cross that bridge when they get there, and they probably have a good 10 years before they have to worry about that. If it was just a small house and a small yard like they used to have in the city it might be different, but they have built an amazing place over the years, so why would they want to stay in a city? To be 10 minutes away from the local Walmart? They are retired, so they can easily do all their grocery shopping in a longer half-day escapade and be done for a couple of weeks. For shopping, 1hr drive in the countryside vs 1/2 hr drive with traffic seems like an improvement when they have nothing else to do with their time to be honest. Different strokes and all that.
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That is an excellent question that I have not yet contemplated. Thinking about it I have to say it's both with a heavy bias on the male side. I know of at least two females that can't or couldn't wait to escape suburbia for a more peaceful and hassle-free (re: no people) life in the countryside. One that grew up and lived in cities and suburbs all around the world her entire life and has already moved out (aforementioned neighbors/friends that now live an hour away) and one that grew up in the countryside in upstate New York and only moved to the city for college and later work. Other than that it's exclusively men. That is a very interesting observation.
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I thought about that as well, and I think you're absolutely right. 20-year old me would probably hate it.
My wife and I moved here for a number of reasons, chief of which was the fact that I was sick of paying rent and housing in Austin itself was and remains incredibly expensive and comparatively cramped. We looked at a few houses in the city and nothing really tickled our fancy. As a life-long city dweller I can assure you that it definitely felt like moving out to the middle of nowhere for us at first but after living here for five years I would dare say that for me, suburbs seem to an adequate compromise. It's comparatively quiet without being desolate. It's comparatively affordable without lacking the services I was accustomed to in the city. I have a long green belt behind the house and miles upon miles of hiking trails all around me. At the same time I have neighbors I can socialize with, an elementary and middle school within walking distance (both less than 10 minutes away), a giant grocery store 10 minutes away by car, and pretty much everything else I need on a daily basis no further than 15-20 minutes by car.
That is an interesting statement, as it is one that I keep hearing over and over again. What is it about people that you are fed up with? Is it specific people that drive you up the walls? Is it the sheer number of people you are surrounded by, and if so how and why?
It's not the number of people -- it's more their nature when living in a densely populated city. Either people have gotten less considerate over time or my tolerance is wearing thin the older I get (or some combination).
In my experience, this desire, or marked preference (for rural bliss) is almost exclusively male.
For a variety of reasons (some physical, - i.e. lack of amenities, (shops, schools, libraries, coffee shops, etc) poor transport links, - especially if the woman doesn't drive, or have independent access to transport - isolation, lack of cultural outlets (theatre, cinema, book-shops, etc) - and socio-cultural, - traditional views and attitudes may be more deeply rooted in the countryside) - not to mention the fact that rural living (especially if one has to try to make a living from the land) is often thankless, unending, demanding, difficult and tedious - women tend to view life in the countryside through a lens that is anything but romantic.
My mother came from the countryside (granted, from a comfortable background), but loathed it, and invariably used the verb "escaped" to describe her feelings when she was sent to boarding school.
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People seem to have a declining respect for others that I believe comes from, and is driven by, population density, smartphones and social media.
Some of the little things I've noticed over the last 10-15 years:
- Not holding a door for a person walking directly behind you.
- Carrying on a cell phone conversation, on speaker, while in line at a retail store. (while yelling into the phone as some do) No one wants to hear your loud conversations!
- Carrying on a cell phone conversation, not on speaker, while in line at a retail store. (while yelling into the phone as some do) No one wants to hear half of your loud conversations!
- Carrying on a cell phone conversation, while being waited on by a retail employee, either at checkout or say a deli counter. Constantly telling either the other party on the call or the retail employee to "hold on a sec".
- Driving: running stop lights, pulling out in front of people, merging onto highways, etc. Merging is my biggest pet peeve, when merging, the flow of traffic on the highway has the right of way, you do not have the right to pull directly onto the highway at 25mph just because there is a line of traffic coming up behind you and you don't want to wait!
- Civility in general seems to be sorely lacking, especially online. IMHO people are losing the ability to separate their "keyboard warrior" personas on social media from everyday real life and feel entitled to go nuclear over the smallest things. Notice the increase in the number of assaults in fast food restaurants over condiments or missing items?
- Pedestrians crossing the street... Yes I know they have the right of way at most crosswalks etc but they make ZERO effort to look before they leap as they are staring at their phones. They also make no effort to get across the street in a timely fashion because they feel entitled to waltz along at their texting pace. People struggle to walk and text at the same time.
- Pedestrians in parking lots outside stores, again staring at their phones while walking down the middle of the parking lot, no effort whatsoever to get out of drivers way.
- Bicyclists in the garb of their favorite racer riding through stop signs and red lights! On one hand they want drivers to adhere to every little law that benefits them but when it comes to them.... all bets are off.
- Worst of all... parents total disregard for their children's behavior in public, especially restaurants. Nothing sets me on edge more than trying to enjoy a good meal (not talking fast food) and the next table over contains 2 parents completely ignoring their 3 screaming kids or their 3 kids with 3 iPads at max volume all doing different things! God forbid you say anything or give them a look because then they climb up on their soapbox and start yelling at you that "children are children, what do you want me to do?". How about teaching your children some basic manners and discipline. Soccer mom's on a lunch "play date" are insufferable, all they want to do is gossip over a glass of wine while their respective children run all over the restaurant "playing".
My profession requires a lot of travel and honestly cities put me on edge, I cannot wait to get out of them. That is not to say that rude folks don't exist in the suburbs or rural areas but overall they are either not as bad or more tolerable because there are less of them in a less dense community.
Thankfully I live in an area that is a middle ground of sorts, close enough to the amenities but far enough away from heavy concentrations of people that I don't need to pine for land "in the middle of nowhere" but I certainly understand why some do.
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A couple of social science-related factors that also may have an effect, IMHO:
- In many households, domestic work and caregiving is exclusively or mostly done by women and girls. Less dense areas, where schools, stores, health care providers, community centers, and churches are distant from where people actually live, can, consequently, affect male daily lives less than female daily lives.
- The ability to completely transfer one's residence, late in life, from one area to a new area requires a lot of social and financial resources. Currently, wealth is greatly concentrated in people with STEM backgrounds who, also currently, are predominantly male. As can be seen when comparing cities traditionally known for "high culture" (say, NYC and Boston) to cities known for "high tech" (say, San José and Seattle), there is a lower demand among people with STEM backgrounds for cultural amenities. So rich STEM guys aren't going to be that bothered by living in a rural area that doesn't have a symphony, art galleries, an opera company, dance companies, or museums.
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"A person close to the job search who spoke on condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to reveal its details, said that the SFMOMA position was not an easy sell to candidates, given San Francisco’s comparatively low-profile contemporary art scene and the tepid interest in art patronage among Silicon Valley moguls. "
San Francisco Museum of Modern Art Names New Director (Published 2022)
Christopher Bedford, the leader and sometimes lightning rod at the Baltimore Museum of Art, will fill the position left by Neal Benezra, who resigned a year ago.
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