Riddle me this: why are people buying land in the boonies to move out to one day?

[eyoungren]

Yeah, good thing we don’t live near each other. I’m partial to wildlife regardless of if they ate one of my pets. A coyote ate a cat of mine 15 years ago. Still love cats, still prefer wildlife.

I don't have a problem with wildlife as long as it stays on its own turf and leaves my wildlife alone. If I'm on their turf, that's a different story.

Plenty of hikes where friends and I were on their turf and consciously (and cautiously) went around mountain goats, rattlesnakes and cows.

One very large mother cow stared us down once (she had her calf behind her). She wouldn't move, so we gave her a wide berth.

PS. Those things would have been 1980s and early 1990s. I haven't lived rural in over 21 years.

 

[nicho]

leaves my wildlife alone

I'm not sure you understand the meaning of wildlife.

Or that you, in all likelihood, were on their turf.

 

[Scepticalscribe]

I don't have a problem with wildlife as long as it stays on its own turf and leaves my wildlife alone. If I'm on their turf, that's a different story.

Plenty of hikes where friends and I were on their turf and consciously (and cautiously) went around mountain goats, rattlesnakes and cows.

One very large mother cow stared us down once (she had her calf behind her). She wouldn't move, so we gave her a wide berth.

PS. Those things would have been 1980s and early 1990s. I haven't lived rural in over 21 years.

That brings back very vivid memories of my time in Georgia (Caucasus Georgia), where I spent two years (with the EU) immediately after the Russian-Georgian conflict of 2008.

 

[profcutter]

Yeah, when it comes to foxes around here, who also eat pets, I know they came here long before we did. This is their home, we’re newcomers. When we talk coyotes, they’re spreading their range across the US, so they may be new arrivals comparatively. I’m still not going to try to bash one with my car, which may sound good in your head, but lead to several hundred-dollar repair bills aside from being cruel. I’m also not the kind of person who thinks killing wolves is OK, even if they kill a cow or two. My cats, or if I had a farm, my livestock, aren’t wildlife.

 

[TechRunner]

I came across a coyote once on a trail run. We stopped and looked at each other for several seconds, then it trotted off, stopping every few yards to look back at me. I didn't move until it was out of sight, then I turned and set a new personal pace-per-mile record getting back to the car

 

[Apple fanboy]

So much to dismantle here... first of all I would like everybody who responded.

@eyoungren It's very interesting to hear the opposite perspective for once. I always feel like I'm the only one who doesn't get it as pretty much everybody around me is talking about rural living as if it was the epitome of human existence, and I feel left out and somewhat alienated sometimes. The issues you mentioned are exactly what pops into my head first when I think about living in the countryside. My head immediately goes to all these potential problems whereas most other people do not seem to see them as such.

@Matz Yours was an immensly insightful response, thank you so much. The reference to misanthropy was obviously an exaggeration. I do, however, find myself wondering sometimes whether or not there is some truth to it solely based on the fact that almost universally whenever people move out to the countryside the main reason given is that they want to get away from other people. It may also be the way this sentiment is phrased, see Airforcekid's response above. I find this one of the hardest things to grasp because both me and my wife really enjoy the social and communal aspect of living around other people and bumping into them randomly on the street when walking the dog or playing outside in the driveway with your kids.

I think one of the most difficult things for me to understand is why my wife and I seem to be the only ones who don't have that dream of moving out to a huge tract of land at some point. All of our friends except for one seem to share that common dream. All of our immediate neighbors have mentioned it at one point or another since we moved to this house in the Austin suburbs almost five years ago. Some of them decided to cash in when the housing market exploded in 2020 around here and already acted upon their dream. A family that lived four houses down and that we became very close friends with when we first moved here has now moved out more than an hour away from us. Suffice it to say that we barely see each other anymore as a result of this but they seem super happy out there. Now that I am in my forties there seems to be a universal thread of praising the idea of countrylife all around me that I am not a part of, and I am trying to understand why. Maybe it's because I don't want to be late to the game. Maybe it's FOMO. I honestly don't know and don't understand.

So the main reason we moved to the country two years ago was to get away from people. I don’t want to live next door to people. I don’t miss one thing about suburbia. We aren’t that far from town. Mist stuff we buy gets delivered.
But getting out for country walks and enjoying our garden give me much more pleasure than where we used to live. Much better for your mental health and physical health in my opinion.

 

[eyoungren]

I'm not sure you understand the meaning of wildlife.

Or that you, in all likelihood, were on their turf.

Yes. actually I do. I was using hyperbole. I meant my pets. I.e., my cats. They were semi-wild because we didn't have litter boxes in the house. They were let out if they needed to go and they came home and scratched on the door or butted their heads on the windows when they wanted in.

Outside was also were they used to get their own food sometimes. I've had more bat bodies and mice heads dropped on my doormat than I care to think about.

 

[eyoungren]

Yeah, when it comes to foxes around here, who also eat pets, I know they came here long before we did. This is their home, we’re newcomers. When we talk coyotes, they’re spreading their range across the US, so they may be new arrivals comparatively. I’m still not going to try to bash one with my car, which may sound good in your head, but lead to several hundred-dollar repair bills aside from being cruel. I’m also not the kind of person who thinks killing wolves is OK, even if they kill a cow or two. My cats, or if I had a farm, my livestock, aren’t wildlife.

Coyotes are not worth bashing my car and the cost of all the repairs. Although I may tend to drift towards them, I don't hit them and I don't depart my lane or the road I'm driving on. Mainly they receive my yelling at them.

As I mentioned earlier, I was using hyperbole in relation to my pets. I agree with you on wolves. In my mind, that's a bit different.

 

[eyoungren]

I came across a coyote once on a trail run. We stopped and looked at each other for several seconds, then it trotted off, stopping every few yards to look back at me. I didn't move until it was out of sight, then I turned and set a new personal pace-per-mile record getting back to the car

Coyotes are basically cowards, except if they happen to be hunting in packs, are very hungry, or the prey they are hunting is smaller than they are. They will fight ferociously if cornered of course and you were smart to retreat.

 

[Apple Crusader]

This is something I've experienced ever since moving to the US a little over six years ago, and I feel it's happening more and more frequently.

I'm at a party or other social event, making small talk with friends of friends and almost every time I am at one of these social gatherings someone proudly exclaims that they have just purchased a tract of land, somewhere between 5-15 acres, somewhere out in the boonies in the middle of nowhere at least an hour or two away from the city. They plan to build a house there and move out once they're retired, they're old, the kids are in college, etc. pp. It's always the exact same spiel. Mind you, this is not coming from people trying to escape an inner-city apartment in overpopulated urban areas such as San Francisco, Chicago, or New York but people already living in what can only be described as suburbian mansions 20-30 minutes away from the city.

Whenever I ask people why the response is always along the lines of "I don't want to grow old in the city" or "I want to escape city life" or "I want more land". As someone who has lived either directly in or in the suburbs of big cities my entire life (the smallest city I have lived in was Detroit, with a population of around 640,000) this is something I find impossible to understand. Why would I want to escape the benefits of cities, especially if I already live out in the comfort of suburbia? Why would I want 10 acres of land? Why would I want to drive 20 minutes or more to the next grocery store, 30 minutes or more to the next hardware store, or an hour or more to the next medical facility (especially if I am going to need the latter much more frequently as I grow older)?

What am I missing? Is this a cultural thing deeply engrained in the American mindset that oen must own land and that I as a foreigner that wasn't raised in this country simply cannot understand? Have I not been exposed to my fellow citizens long enough to develop the deep misanthropic hatred that would drive me out to the middle of nowhere? I honestly am completely flabbergasted and lost as to why this seems to be the norm rather than the exception around here.

Has someone here done this recently and if so, can you help me understand?

Probably the draconian COVID restrictions occurring in big cities.

I'm sure a mod will say this is politics, but it is not. There is a large amount of people leaving big cities for freedom of being in the middle of nowhere, self-reliant.

Imagine it: You can have your own plot of land, not have to have annoying neighbors nor government intrusion in your life. What you do get is the beauty of nature, the peace of solitude, and the strength of doing things for one's self.

That's my take on it and it is also a reason I want to move to Texas. I don't live in a big city but I work near Washington DC and I can tell you: Traffic, COVID restrictions, and too many people are the reasons I want to move to the "middle of nowhere".

 

[profcutter]

Probably the draconian COVID restrictions occurring in big cities.

I'm sure a mod will say this is politics, but it is not. There is a large amount of people leaving big cities for freedom of being in the middle of nowhere, self-reliant.

Imagine it: You can have your own plot of land, not have to have annoying neighbors nor government intrusion in your life. What you do get is the beauty of nature, the peace of solitude, and the strength of doing things for one's self.

That's my take on it and it is also a reason I want to move to Texas. I don't live in a big city but I work near Washington DC and I can tell you: Traffic, COVID restrictions, and too many people are the reasons I want to move to the "middle of nowhere".

That may be true, but I work in rural PA. A good friend of mine works in the local ER. They’re so busy because of all the people who think masking is communism, they’ve been treating people in hallways for months. A couple weeks ago, a patient died of COVID in the bathroom. They were so busy they didn’t find him for 24 hours. He had just been waiting to be seen. I’ll take the mask mandates, thanks! Even in my own suburban county, for the past couple weeks, if you got sick, don’t bother going to a local hospital, all the county hospitals are completely full. You’re going to Philly if you have a heart attack.

 

[eyoungren]

That may be true, but I work in rural PA. A good friend of mine works in the local ER. They’re so busy because of all the people who think masking is communism, they’ve been treating people in hallways for months. A couple weeks ago, a patient died of COVID in the bathroom. They were so busy they didn’t find him for 24 hours. He had just been waiting to be seen. I’ll take the mask mandates, thanks! Even in my own suburban county, for the past couple weeks, if you got sick, don’t bother going to a local hospital, all the county hospitals are completely full. You’re going to Philly if you have a heart attack.

I read an article some time ago about rural hospitals. Many of these places, which by the way take some time to get to if you live rural, have only one or two doctors and most of the staff are nurses. They have less funding and in a few places have actually closed. A lot of them have contracted with a medical group that provides doctors via telescreen from a central location.

The article I read was about how one organization was attempting to train the nurses working in rural hospitals on some techniques they usually didn't acquire. The reason for that was to keep patients stable, so that the doctors who are there via tele-hookup don't have to explain a complicated procedure over a monitor.

So, when COVID hit, you've got rural hospitals with no doctors that call in via tele-screen to a doctor that is hundreds of miles away.

On a personal note, I can recall the many residents of the rural area I lived in during the 1980s shunning the one local hospital in the area. They did that because even though there was a risk in driving 25 minutes farther to a larger hospital, your care was going to be better. You only went to the local rural hospital if there was no chance of making it to that larger hospital.

 

[Apple Crusader]

That may be true, but I work in rural PA. A good friend of mine works in the local ER. They’re so busy because of all the people who think masking is communism, they’ve been treating people in hallways for months. A couple weeks ago, a patient died of COVID in the bathroom. They were so busy they didn’t find him for 24 hours. He had just been waiting to be seen. I’ll take the mask mandates, thanks! Even in my own suburban county, for the past couple weeks, if you got sick, don’t bother going to a local hospital, all the county hospitals are completely full. You’re going to Philly if you have a heart attack.

I very much doubt this:

I went to the emergency room in a hospital in Washington DC during the peak of COVID in 2020 after a car accident. The hospital was dead empty, as was their parking lot.

But ignoring the COVID politics portion of your post, I will address the medical issues with living in the rural countryside ( and more so from a personal experience during the Virginia power outage snow event this year):
If you are snowed in or somehow stuck in your house, you are on your own for medical attention.

I popped My knee out of its socket (and back in) during the multi-day power outage during this years snow event. I don’t live in the middle of nowhere, but an hour or so from DC. I was in utter agony when this happened, and lay in a pile of snow. Eventually I was able to stand up but was not able to call For help because the cell phone towers weren’t working (I had signal but no service), it was night time and there were generators running all around my neighborhood, making shouting for help irrelevant.

I can tell you, I learned my lesson the hard way about injuring one’s self when you are far from help, this can only be made worse in a rural area. I live 5 miles from a hospital and 2 miles from urgent care, but weather and other natural disasters can certainly be a life or death situaiton.

 

[Madhatter32]

Probably the draconian COVID restrictions occurring in big cities.

I'm sure a mod will say this is politics, but it is not. There is a large amount of people leaving big cities for freedom of being in the middle of nowhere, self-reliant.

Imagine it: You can have your own plot of land, not have to have annoying neighbors nor government intrusion in your life. What you do get is the beauty of nature, the peace of solitude, and the strength of doing things for one's self.

That's my take on it and it is also a reason I want to move to Texas. I don't live in a big city but I work near Washington DC and I can tell you: Traffic, COVID restrictions, and too many people are the reasons I want to move to the "middle of nowhere".

Interesting take. I know more people who wanted to move out of the city because of COVID -- not the COVID restrictions. I guess that rationale can cut both ways.

 

[profcutter]

I very much doubt this:

I went to the emergency room in a hospital in Washington DC during the peak of COVID in 2020 after a car accident. The hospital was dead empty, as was their parking lot.

But ignoring the COVID politics portion of your post, I will address the medical issues with living in the rural countryside ( and more so from a personal experience during the Virginia power outage snow event this year):
If you are snowed in or somehow stuck in your house, you are on your own for medical attention.

I popped My knee out of its socket (and back in) during the multi-day power outage during this years snow event. I don’t live in the middle of nowhere, but an hour or so from DC. I was in utter agony when this happened, and lay in a pile of snow. Eventually I was able to stand up but was not able to call For help because the cell phone towers weren’t working (I had signal but no service), it was night time and there were generators running all around my neighborhood, making shouting for help irrelevant.

I can tell you, I learned my lesson the hard way about injuring one’s self when you are far from help, this can only be made worse in a rural area. I live 5 miles from a hospital and 2 miles from urgent care, but weather and other natural disasters can certainly be a life or death situaiton.

Feel free to doubt it. I believe the Philly Inquirer more than your doubt, I’ve also seen it myself. All our non-emergency procedures are cancelled locally. I also trust my friend who works in the ER, I’ve known him for 10 years. I suppose facts don’t matter though.

Delco hospitals are full and an ER is closing as COVID-19 surge intensifies in Philly area

Crozer is so short-staffed that the emergency room at Springfield Hospital will temporarily close starting Friday. "I don’t think we’ve experienced this in any recent times,” an official said.

www.inquirer.com

eyoungren: What you’re describing about rural hospitals is definitely true. My elderly mother came close to death, completely unnecessarily because she was taken to a regional hospital while hiking instead of UW or Harborview. They simply didn’t have the knowledge or experience, and the GI surgeon only came by every 10 days. Thankfully, he caught the issue right on time, but he was pissed, “How did they let it get this bad? One more day we’d be having a funeral” is what he told us.

The hospital system I’m describing is the largest in Central PA, Geisinger, and it’s one town over from Evangelical, which is also a major hospital, but way overloaded these days. The rates are just too damned high, and no one wants to believe how bad COVID is until you get it, and you just happen to be one of the unlucky folks for whom it’s not just a cold, even with vaccines. Yeah, they were too close to capacity before COVID, mostly due to rural ailments like Meth and Herione addiction, which it turns out aren’t just city problems. COVID slammed them, and my friends who work there are completely burned out and threadbare. A friend of mine who is a nurse was cited for wearing a mask in March 2020, because they were worried she would cause panic with the patients. <Face Palm>

 

[dmr727]

Feel free to doubt it. I believe the Philly Inquirer more than your doubt, I’ve also seen it myself. All our non-emergency procedures are cancelled locally. I also trust my friend who works in the ER, I’ve known him for 10 years. I suppose facts don’t matter though.

Yeah, my wife is a doctor and the big thing that's been hurting them is omicron running through the hospital staff, so everyone that's *not* sick is having to pick up the slack, and it's really been affecting their ability to care for people.

 

[eyoungren]

eyoungren: What you’re describing about rural hospitals is definitely true. My elderly mother came close to death, completely unnecessarily because she was taken to a regional hospital while hiking instead of UW or Harborview. They simply didn’t have the knowledge or experience, and the GI surgeon only came by every 10 days. Thankfully, he caught the issue right on time, but he was pissed, “How did they let it get this bad? One more day we’d be having a funeral” is what he told us.

Here's what's interesting…

The hospital I speak of (that residents shunned) is in Banning, Ca on Highland Springs Road which is the dividing line between Banning and Beaumont, Ca. San Gorgonio Pass Memorial Hospital. Now, as I said, in the 80s this was the hospital to avoid. But since 2000 when my wife and I left, that area the hospital is in has become home to many people who work in Orange County and commute an hour and a half one way each day to work.

The hospital is now reputable and like a lot of places has medical facilities built up around it. Those were all going in when we left. The former Riverside County Public Health officer (Dr. Cameron Kaiser) actually worked there for a time.

So good things can happen once a formerly rural area upgrades.

But yeah, your experience illustrates one of the problems with rural health care.

 

[eyoungren]

Yeah, my wife is a doctor and the big thing that's been hurting them is omicron running through the hospital staff, so everyone that's *not* sick is having to pick up the slack, and it's really been affecting their ability to care for people.

In 2018 the daughter of one of my coworkers figured out what she wanted to do and became a nurse. Later that year she found a job at a hospital near where I lived at the time.

By the end of 2018, the business I worked for was sold and I lost touch with my coworker. But I have to think that her daughter became a nurse right around the opening wave of the pandemic. It'd be interesting to know whether she's still working in that field now or not. Lots of people leaving the medical field over burnout because of all this.

 

[Apple fanboy]

That is an interesting statement, as it is one that I keep hearing over and over again. What is it about people that you are fed up with? Is it specific people that drive you up the walls? Is it the sheer number of people you are surrounded by, and if so how and why?

I don’t like people.

 

[Apple fanboy]

People seem to have a declining respect for others that I believe comes from, and is driven by, population density, smartphones and social media.

Some of the little things I've noticed over the last 10-15 years:

• Not holding a door for a person walking directly behind you.
• Carrying on a cell phone conversation, on speaker, while in line at a retail store. (while yelling into the phone as some do) No one wants to hear your loud conversations!
• Carrying on a cell phone conversation, not on speaker, while in line at a retail store. (while yelling into the phone as some do) No one wants to hear half of your loud conversations!
• Carrying on a cell phone conversation, while being waited on by a retail employee, either at checkout or say a deli counter. Constantly telling either the other party on the call or the retail employee to "hold on a sec".
• Driving: running stop lights, pulling out in front of people, merging onto highways, etc. Merging is my biggest pet peeve, when merging, the flow of traffic on the highway has the right of way, you do not have the right to pull directly onto the highway at 25mph just because there is a line of traffic coming up behind you and you don't want to wait!
• Civility in general seems to be sorely lacking, especially online. IMHO people are losing the ability to separate their "keyboard warrior" personas on social media from everyday real life and feel entitled to go nuclear over the smallest things. Notice the increase in the number of assaults in fast food restaurants over condiments or missing items?
• Pedestrians crossing the street... Yes I know they have the right of way at most crosswalks etc but they make ZERO effort to look before they leap as they are staring at their phones. They also make no effort to get across the street in a timely fashion because they feel entitled to waltz along at their texting pace. People struggle to walk and text at the same time.
• Pedestrians in parking lots outside stores, again staring at their phones while walking down the middle of the parking lot, no effort whatsoever to get out of drivers way.
• Bicyclists in the garb of their favorite racer riding through stop signs and red lights! On one hand they want drivers to adhere to every little law that benefits them but when it comes to them.... all bets are off.
• Worst of all... parents total disregard for their children's behavior in public, especially restaurants. Nothing sets me on edge more than trying to enjoy a good meal (not talking fast food) and the next table over contains 2 parents completely ignoring their 3 screaming kids or their 3 kids with 3 iPads at max volume all doing different things! God forbid you say anything or give them a look because then they climb up on their soapbox and start yelling at you that "children are children, what do you want me to do?". How about teaching your children some basic manners and discipline. Soccer mom's on a lunch "play date" are insufferable, all they want to do is gossip over a glass of wine while their respective children run all over the restaurant "playing".

There are a million other small things that by themselves aren't the worst insults but combined they are eroding our general civility, hence the desire to "get away".

My profession requires a lot of travel and honestly cities put me on edge, I cannot wait to get out of them. That is not to say that rude folks don't exist in the suburbs or rural areas but overall they are either not as bad or more tolerable because there are less of them in a less dense community.

Thankfully I live in an area that is a middle ground of sorts, close enough to the amenities but far enough away from heavy concentrations of people that I don't need to pine for land "in the middle of nowhere" but I certainly understand why some do.

Very true. We live in a small village on quite a big plot. So agree we have the best of both worlds. Town is a 10 minute drive away.

 

[KaliYoni]

That brings back very vivid memories of my time in Georgia (Caucasus Georgia), where I spent two years (with the EU) immediately after the Russian-Georgian conflict of 2008.

Off-topic question: I've heard Georgia has the best food of all the places that were in the USSR. Do you agree?

 

[Apple fanboy]

In my experience, this desire, or marked preference (for rural bliss) is almost exclusively male.

For a variety of reasons (some physical, - i.e. lack of amenities, (shops, schools, libraries, coffee shops, etc) poor transport links, - especially if the woman doesn't drive, or have independent access to transport - isolation, lack of cultural outlets (theatre, cinema, etc) - and socio-cultural, - traditional views and attitudes may be more deeply rooted in the countryside) - not to mention the fact that rural living (especially if one has to try to make a living from the land) is often thankless, unending, demanding, difficult and tedious - women tend to view life in the countryside through a lens that is anything but romantic.

My mother came from the countryside (granted, from a comfortable background), but loathed it, and invariably used the verb "escaped" to describe her feelings when she was sent to boarding school.

Not in my case. We both love it, and I’d not have moved here if she didn’t want to. In fact I’d have moved somewhere I didn’t want to if it had made her happy. After all she’s here 24/7. I go to work.

 

[profcutter]

Off-topic question: I've heard Georgia has the best food of all the places that were in the USSR. Do you agree?

If you like cheese and butter and eggs, Katchapouri is pretty amazing! Our friend is a Georgian chef. Not bad at all!

 

[bradl]

Probably the draconian COVID restrictions occurring in big cities.

I'm sure a mod will say this is politics, but it is not. There is a large amount of people leaving big cities for freedom of being in the middle of nowhere, self-reliant.

Imagine it: You can have your own plot of land, not have to have annoying neighbors nor government intrusion in your life. What you do get is the beauty of nature, the peace of solitude, and the strength of doing things for one's self.

That's my take on it and it is also a reason I want to move to Texas. I don't live in a big city but I work near Washington DC and I can tell you: Traffic, COVID restrictions, and too many people are the reasons I want to move to the "middle of nowhere".

Umm.. Dallas is now as big as Los Angeles, and has nearly double the traffic. Same with Houston; in fact, both the DFW area and the Houston area are HORRIBLE for traffic. Austin is getting that way, as well as San Antonio.

As for COVID, the lack of restrictions and resistance to any restrictions is giving Texas more grief than anything. I know all of this firsthand: I just drove back to Oklahoma City from Texas, and am now about to make the drive from OKC to Omaha.

My point: Texas isn't as land free or land rich as one thinks or makes it out to be (quite possibly due to the romanticism I alluded to earlier of the Great Outdoors of the West), because one still has a lot of restrictions to deal with, and because of the lack of health restrictions (quite possibly due to NIMBY) they are seeing more health problems which are costing their lives.

To put it simple, you have to actually be alive to enjoy those freedoms one waxes poetically about; those freedoms do one no good if they are already dead.

Interesting take. I know more people who wanted to move out of the city because of COVID -- not the COVID restrictions. I guess that rationale can cut both ways.

This is a good point as well. When you have those trying to resist those restrictions (again, because NIMBY) living in the cities, the chances of infection are higher than other places, simply because of the density of the population. Moving away from that artificially flattens the curve, but kicks the proverbial can down the road, because instead of flattening the curve by being vaccinated against the virus, they are flattening it by spreading themselves out further away from others to avoid it and avoid giving it to others.. that doesn't make them resistant to the virus or vaccinated against it; they are simply running from it.

BL.

 

[Madhatter32]

This is a good point as well. When you have those trying to resist those restrictions (again, because NIMBY) living in the cities, the chances of infection are higher than other places, simply because of the density of the population. Moving away from that artificially flattens the curve, but kicks the proverbial can down the road, because instead of flattening the curve by being vaccinated against the virus, they are flattening it by spreading themselves out further away from others to avoid it and avoid giving it to others.. that doesn't make them resistant to the virus or vaccinated against it; they are simply running from it.

BL.

The people I know (only 2 mind you) who moved out of the city were fully vaccinated -- so it was more about getting out of a high density area where the virus can flourish then avoiding vaccination. They both were immunocompromised and wanted to be very cautious. I am sure other reasons came into play as well -- like getting more space. But, I agree, moving out of the city in order to avoid vaccination seems like a fool's errand.