RIM's new BlackBerry 10 OS isn't as good as iOS 1.0 (lol)

[0dev]

From the rosy picture you paint, it would seem then that RIM needs to do nothing. why bother with BB 10? They're doing just fine. Or are they?

No company can just sit and do nothing in the tech industry. IMO, their current system is good, but I look forward to BB10. It'll be even better.

By the way, who said that what OS HP's computers run matters in this discussion?

You put the big emphasis on everything running on different platforms, I never did. In fact, HP's tablets and phones ran webOS and their computers run Windows, just like how RIM's tablet runs QNX and their phones run BB OS 7.

Meanwhile, millions more individuals are buying Android and iOS devices, at rates that far outpace RIM's sales rate. iOS is easy, simple to use, and excellent at social networking.

There are millions of individuals using all these platforms, and they're all selling well. If you really want to dig into sales numbers, Android outsells iOS in the US. Does that means iOS is dying? No, of course not.

Ahhh, the common refrain of a RIM devotee. Well, I was a former RIM user. I switched to iOS not for the fart apps, and I don't have angry birds on my iPhone or iPad. I did it because it actually integrates better with my employer's e-mail platform than RIM's solution does, believe it or not. As companies start realizing that connectivity has evolved beyond 2001, it actually became more cumbersome and expensive to keep RIM in the loop. Or, we could have secure, encrypted Push e-mail on iOS and Android devices with no added cost or infrastructure. And it's more intuitive, too.

I'm not a "RIM devotee", I've owned a wide range of smartphones because I want the best device for me, not the device with the most hype or most impressive spec sheet, and I've decided that the two best devices for me are an iPhone and a BlackBerry.

I don't know what system your employer uses, but a friend of mine is setting up an office for a large firm and has decided to use BlackBerries because they're more compatable with what the rest of the company uses, and of course the OS is deemed more secure (and it is - every jailbreak is a hack, remember, and there's no jailbreak or root for BB OS, nor is there any malware for it, as there is for Android).

But, if we go by your crude pushing of an inaccurate cliche, I guess serious tablet users don't care about e-mail or BBM either, right? i mean, who needs those trivial little things on their tablet?

The PB does have e-mail and BBM, you've just got to turn BB Bridge on. It's not difficult

Then either you should now better about its functionality and that it goes beyond fart apps and Angry Birds, or you're guilty of the crime you accuse others of.

iOS has some nice apps and a nice UI, and the media management is the best of any mobile phone I've used, but for messaging and social networking, the BlackBerry is on par with the iPhone, if not ahead.

I remember five in recent memory, actually. One in 2011, but there was also one in 2010, at least one in 2009, at least one in 2008, at least one in 2007... and from the "another outage" headline from the 2007 article, it's easy to infer that this wasn't the first.

Those lasted an hour or so if that. I'm talking about major outages which lasted days, and there's only been one of those in recent memory.

You're welcome to that opinion, but I'm going to have to disagree with you on that. Other people who've reviewed it agree. it's certainly a great phone if you're heavily invested and have drunken a lot of the RIM Kool-Aid. But to most who are accustomed to better, it's just more of the same.

Engadget is a little more optimistic. They say it's a great transition phone in the run up to BB10. Which it is. And it's fast, user-friendly, reliable, solid, and built well.

 

[SurferMan]

BB 10 is in beta. Beta iOS systems are crappy too. All beta systems are, in fact, because they friggin' betas.

I actually like the PlayBook. It's a nice tablet. I also use a 9700 which I'm quite happy with.

All this "RIM is failing!" stuff is extremely overblown.

Not really, their losing market share daily, and have been. In fact when I've consulted, quite a few large companies that were clients had switched from using BB's for employee's to Android or iPhones. My gf has a new Bold 9900 from work and it's still way more clunky to use then my SGII or our iPhones. Plus the screen is too small imo, and I can type much much faster on screen then using that small keyboard. The only advantage BB had in the past was email/msg, but that's a mute point now with what other phones can do now and have for a bit.

Their tablet seems to be good though, as even people whom have reviewed and disliked the phones, liked the tablet.

 

[0dev]

Not really, their losing market share daily, and have been. In fact when I've consulted, quite a few large companies that were clients had switched from using BB's for employee's to Android or iPhones. My gf has a new Bold 9900 from work and it's still way more clunky to use then my SGII or our iPhones. Plus the screen is too small imo, and I can type much much faster on screen then using that small keyboard. The only advantage BB had in the past was email/msg, but that's a mute point now with what other phones can do now and have for a bit.

Their tablet seems to be good though, as even people whom have reviewed and disliked the phones, liked the tablet.

Their growth is slowing, but they're not leaking customers. There's a big difference between failing and growing slowly.

Your opinion on the handset is your opinion.

 

[SurferMan]

Their growth is slowing, but they're not leaking customers. There's a big difference between failing and growing slowly.

Your opinion on the handset is your opinion.

Sorry, but I actually have been involved in consulting for some large companies, whom had large corporate accounts they cancelled from RIM and went elsewhere. They have no growth, they've been losing market share for a long time. If only a couple of my clients that were large corporations have switched (and I have nothing to do with phones lol, just thought that was interesting when I've found out)... whose to say that out of the 10's and 10's of thousands of corporate accounts they pry have, that others are/will be dropping their accounts?

Their corporate accounts are their bread and butter, and they've been losing that slice of the market and will continue to do so. I'm not saying they'll be out of business tomorrow, or next year etc.. but there will come a point where their share of the market and margins will be minimal.

 

[0dev]

Sorry, but I actually have been involved in consulting for some large companies, whom had large corporate accounts they cancelled from RIM and went elsewhere. They have no growth, they've been losing market share for a long time. If only a couple of my clients that were large corporations have switched (and I have nothing to do with phones lol, just thought that was interesting when I've found out)... whose to say that out of the 10's and 10's of thousands of corporate accounts they pry have, that others are/will be dropping their accounts?

Their corporate accounts are their bread and butter, and they've been losing that slice of the market and will continue to do so. I'm not saying they'll be out of business tomorrow, or next year etc.. but there will come a point where their share of the market and margins will be minimal.

Can you give me a source for the significant loss of corporate accounts?

 

[CheesePuff]

RIM should switch to hardware only and utilize the now open source webOS.

 

[SurferMan]

Can you give me a source for the significant loss of corporate accounts?

Do you even read what I wrote? I said I've dealt with large corporate clients from anywhere from large private businesses to some on the stock market for my consulting business. If a few of my clients whom had large corporate accounts that have switch now to iPhones or Android devices.... whose to say that hasn't happened or will happen elsewhere? . And I have nothing to do with the phone divisions, just something I noticed. So please point out where I said there are significant corporate account losses, if you don't comprehend the bold print . Sure it's obvious their share is slipping for the personal market as well, two completely difference sectors, but if you think their corporate accounts are magically growing then I have a bridge to sell you.

Their market share is falling and will continue to do so, and not just here in the States, but their global share of the market is falling as well. If you want some proof, how about doing a quick google search and researching

Again I'm not saying their going out of business, but to assume their healthy and will be is false. They need to completely revamp their model, and they need way way better market and PR... as whatever people they have handling that suck.

 

[0dev]

Do you even read what I wrote? I said I've dealt with large corporate clients from anywhere from large private businesses to some on the stock market for my consulting business. If a few of my clients whom had large corporate accounts that have switch now to iPhones or Android devices.... whose to say that hasn't happened or will happen elsewhere? . And I have nothing to do with the phone divisions, just something I noticed. So please point out where I said there are significant corporate account losses, if you don't comprehend the bold print

Their market share is falling and will continue to do so, and not just here in the States, but their global share of the market is falling as well. If you want some proof, how about doing a quick google search and researching

That means nothing, then. Unless you have a reliable source for your information, you could very well be making it up.

On the other hand, I can show you data which says that RIM is simply growing a bit more slowly.

 

[summitRun]

For email - no contest

BlackBerry does email way better than iP4/s. Apple should license the tech from RIM or come up with something similar.

 

[echo2011]

I miss my curve, but do like the iPhone better. Prior to BlackBerry OS6 one could basically run what ever OS they wanted for what ever particular model phone one had, you could hack the OS, remove stuff to make it lighter, download BlackBerry's theme development software and make, give or sell themes, etc...it wasn't locked down like the iPhone...that's the biggest thing I miss.

 

[SurferMan]

That means nothing, then. Unless you have a reliable source for your information, you could very well be making it up.

On the other hand, I can show you data which says that RIM is simply growing a bit more slowly.

Uhhhh you just completely proved my point... doesn't matter that they shipped more units, that graph still shows their market share still fell from last year which is exactly what I said. And considering they'll already be out of date again with their delayed phone next year, and the fast advacnes Android has made and will make along with Apple... let's see what RIM's share is even in a few years. They've fallen from nearly 50% to 16% in about 2 years.

Making it up? What are you 13? Yes my consulting firm and other businesses are a figment of my imagination So your telling me out of all the clients I have, that I magically only have the few corporate clients in the world that switched to Android or iOS canceling their contract with RIM and nobody else in the states or world has done that? I'm done, since chatting with you is like chatting with a brick wall. Carry on....

 

[scaredpoet]

No company can just sit and do nothing in the tech industry. IMO, their current system is good, but I look forward to BB10. It'll be even better.

I hope so, but this is the first time I've seen you even acknowledge that RIM can't just sit around and do nothing. Everything so far has been an apologist defense of RIM's actions, and a denial that there's even a problem.

Meanwhile, I don't see anyone in this thread going "OMG RIM SUX LOLOLOLOLO." What EVERYONE is saying is, RIM may not be dead yet but is in danger of getting there if they don't do something soon.

You put the big emphasis on everything running on different platforms, I never did. In fact, HP's tablets and phones ran webOS and their computers run Windows, just like how RIM's tablet runs QNX and their phones run BB OS 7.

I'm afraid I don't remember putting any emphasis on "different platforms." What I did put big emphasis on is that RIM made a big show of migrating their phone product line to BB 10 - and then apparently lying about its readiness to market. That's a serious thing to do, and a big hit to a companies credibility.

There are millions of individuals using all these platforms, and they're all selling well. If you really want to dig into sales numbers, Android outsells iOS in the US. Does that means iOS is dying? No, of course not.

No, but it IS a problem when management not only acknowledges that low sales numbers are a problem enough to cut their salaries to $1 each, but promises a solution to the problem, and then pushes back when that solution will be available.

It would appear that amazingly, Balsillie and Lazaridis can better acknowledge RIM's situation than you can. And they haven't gotten high marks for doing that.

I'm not a "RIM devotee", I've owned a wide range of smartphones

Then I'll say it again: as such a well-versed individual, you should know better than to rely on such an infantile crutch as the old "all iPhone/Android users just want pretty toys and silly games" gag.

I don't know what system your employer uses,

Does it matter? Insert any e-mail/calendar/collab platform here, and you need heavy hardware and additional licensed software to make it work with Blackberry, or each user must install desktop sync software to fill in the missing piece and deliver the mail to RIM's outage-prone infrastructure. It's an antiquated method of push e-mail delivery. It's time to evolve.

but a friend of mine is setting up an office for a large firm and has decided to use BlackBerries because they're more compatable with what the rest of the company uses,

Yeah, making decisions solely on corporate inertia has always been the great barrier to good innovation.

and of course the OS is deemed more secure (and it is - every jailbreak is a hack, remember, and there's no jailbreak or root for BB OS, nor is there any malware for it, as there is for Android).

Good for him! I also trust he's ordering the removal of all Windows desktops from employee workstations, since rootkits and malware can be installed on them as well? And is he also banning any blackberry-weidling employee from ever visiting the EU, Indonesia, India, Saudi Arabia or the UAE?

Hiding behind the security argument is great, until the double standards are exposed.

The PB does have e-mail and BBM, you've just got to turn BB Bridge on. It's not difficult :roll eyes:

No, except for the user who explores multiple mobile platforms, and can't use his Playbook to check e-mail when he has his iPhone with him.

iOS has some nice apps and a nice UI, and the media management is the best of any mobile phone I've used, but for messaging and social networking, the BlackBerry is on par with the iPhone, if not ahead.

I'm just gonna let that one sit for what it is. Let others judge whether what you've said is correct or not. I don't feel the need to rebut it.

Those lasted an hour or so if that. I'm talking about major outages which lasted days, and there's only been one of those in recent memory.

That's entirely untrue. Some past outages lasted a day or more. Read the articles.

But again, let's go ahead and just let that one sit there, without a rebuttal from me. You are saying now that global, manufacturer-fault handset outages that cause core functionality to quit working - when the core argument of having a Blackberry is that you get reliable, real time e-mail, all of the time - is perfectly acceptable.

Okay then!

By my question stands: Even for an hour, when has every iPhone, or Android, or Windows Mobile, or Nokia, or Palm, everywhere, stopped working?

Engadget is a little more optimistic. They say it's a great transition phone in the run up to BB10.

It was a great transition phone when BB10 was slated to come out any day now. But now it's not. And that phone can no longer fill the meager shoes of a temporary placeholder anymore. It must now be THE phone people are going to have to put up with, until BB10 finally comes out... right in time for Christmas shopping season, 2012.

I also love this little gem from the article you cited:

If you're not sold on BB7, the application selection isn't liable to help matters. App World does offer a healthy choice, but the most entries are tiny little utilities with niche functionality that will leave you asking questions like "Do we really need an app dedicated to scanning Air Traffic Control at Ottawa International Airport?" In this case the answer is yes, someone does, but we can safely say that we could do without 3D Rollercoaster Rush Jurassic 2.

Well, at least it's not a Angry Birds, right?

 

[0dev]

Making it up? What are you 13? Yes my consulting firm and other businesses are a figment of my imagination So your telling me out of all the clients I have, that I magically only have the few corporate clients in the world that switched to Android or iOS canceling their contract with RIM and nobody else in the states or world has done that? I'm done, since chatting with you is like chatting with a brick wall. Carry on....

I'm saying anyone can post something on a forum without providing any actual evidence, it doesn't mean anything. If you had data to back your claims up, then there'd be no issue.

Hey, I'm actually Andy Rubin messin' with ya. Why the hell not, since you seem to think posting something on an internet forum makes it true?

 

[0dev]

I hope so, but this is the first time I've seen you even acknowledge that RIM can't just sit around and do nothing. Everything so far has been an apologist defense of RIM's actions, and a denial that there's even a problem.

I've never said there's no problem. Look at the first page of the thread and you'll see that I actually said there are issues that have been overblown.

Meanwhile, I don't see anyone in this thread going "OMG RIM SUX LOLOLOLOLO." What EVERYONE is saying is, RIM may not be dead yet but is in danger of getting there if they don't do something soon.

And they are doing something right now.

I'm afraid I don't remember putting any emphasis on "different platforms."

Oops, Small White Car said that. My bad.

What I did put big emphasis on is that RIM made a big show of migrating their phone product line to BB 10 - and then apparently lying about its readiness to market. That's a serious thing to do, and a big hit to a companies credibility.

They didn't lie, they thought it they could get it finished quicker than they did. It's hard to get ETAs on product development, even if you are a major company. How many times did Apple delay the first iPad, for example?

It would appear that amazingly, Balsillie and Lazaridis can better acknowledge RIM's situation than you can. And they haven't gotten high marks for doing that.

Again, I never said RIM had no problems, I simply said the problems they do have are being overblown.

Then I'll say it again: as such a well-versed individual, you should know better than to rely on such an infantile crutch as the old "all iPhone/Android users just want pretty toys and silly games" gag.

As I already stated. iOS has many strengths, and they lie in apps and media. BB OS had more strengths in messaging and social networking. I should also note that BB10 will be better at apps and media too.

Does it matter? Insert any e-mail/calendar/collab platform here, and you need heavy hardware and additional licensed software to make it work with Blackberry, or each user must install desktop sync software to fill in the missing piece and deliver the mail to RIM's outage-prone infrastructure. It's an antiquated method of push e-mail delivery. It's time to evolve.

The evolution is happening. It's coming in 2012

Yeah, making decisions solely on corporate inertia has always been the great barrier to good innovation.

iPhones were briefly looked at as an alternative, but in the end, BlackBerries were easier to integrate into the business. Simple as.

Good for him!

Her*

I also trust he's ordering the removal of all Windows desktops from employee workstations, since rootkits and malware can be installed on them as well? And is he also banning any blackberry-weidling employee from ever visiting the EU, Indonesia, India, Saudi Arabia or the UAE?

What Windows desktops? The company uses Macs.

The surveillance in certain countries (which also monitor mail providers and, indeed, ISPs and phone networks themselves, FYI) affects BIS. A business user would route their encrypted e-mail through BES, which would not be monitored. RIM is literally unable to allow surveillance on BES because the servers not run by them.

Hiding behind the security argument is great, until the double standards are exposed.

There are no double standards, and security is, and always has been, a major concern for business customers, as I'm sure you're aware.

No, except for the user who explores multiple mobile platforms, and can't use his Playbook to check e-mail when he has his iPhone with him.

If you've got multiple mobile platforms, you should also have a BlackBerry

You can still get your e-mail from the browser anyway, even if, for some reason, you have a PlayBook but no BlackBerry.

That's entirely untrue. Some past outages lasted a day or more. Read the articles.

I did read the articles, and most of them didn't specify the time the outages lasted. How convenient.

By my question stands: Even for an hour, when has every iPhone, or Android, or Windows Mobile, or Nokia, or Palm, everywhere, stopped working?

Anything that relies on servers will have some downtime. GMail, Hotmail, Yahoo Mail, and the rest all have downtime too. E-mail as a system is not 100% reliable. Nothing that relies on servers is. And if your e-mail provider goes down for a bit, it's the same result no matter what phone you use.

It was a great transition phone when BB10 was slated to come out any day now. But now it's not. And that phone IS the phone people are going to have until BB10 finally comes out... right in time for Christmas shopping season, 2012.

It's less than year away. Let's just see what happens, shall we? No one here can predict the future.

And with that, I'm done with this inane argument.

 

[scaredpoet]

I'm saying anyone can post something on a forum without providing any actual evidence, it doesn't mean anything. If you had data to back your claims up, then there'd be no issue.

Okay, here's that data you wanted:

http://www.appleinsider.com/article...blackberry_to_top_enterprise_phone_ranks.html

"A study of 2,300 enterprise workers notes that Apple's iPhone has surpassed RIM's BlackBerry as the top pick among business users."


Are you still "done with this inane argument" in which we actually present you with factual information, or do you care to address reality?

 

[0dev]

Okay, here's that data you wanted:

http://www.appleinsider.com/article...blackberry_to_top_enterprise_phone_ranks.html

"A study of 2,300 enterprise workers notes that Apple's iPhone has surpassed RIM's BlackBerry as the top pick among business users."


Are you still "done with this inane argument" in which we actually present you with factual information, or do you care to address reality?

Thank you for actually backing up your claims!

Interesting to note that BlackBerry business marketshare only went down by about 2%. Evidently, the businesses that use BlackBerries are sticking to them, but new companies are using iPhones. It'll be interesting to see if this trend continues after BB10.

 

[greenchiliman]

Kodak is still around but a fraction of what they used to be. If anything, they should have been the company foster social media and digital photo sharing. Same thing with RIM, they are riding their legacy down. Internally, google some of the open letters from the employees to their co-CEOs. These guys are getting stifled and want to succeed but can't.

I second scaredpoet - I work with about 50 fortune 500 companies through my multinational and it is getting prevalent for employees to have the option of RIM, Android, and iPhone. iPhone 4S has been huge and with future iterations and LTE on the horizon it will accelerate churn for RIM.

 

[salacious]

theres only on thing i ever liked about my blackberry ....BBM probably the best instant messaging service idea ever.. pins... and all, however the phones are cheap pieces of crap, my 9300 rewind button stopped working after 3 months, my gf had the same phone and her trackpad stopped working just last month, (bought her a 4s)

 

[likethesoup2]

That means nothing, then. Unless you have a reliable source for your information, you could very well be making it up.

On the other hand, I can show you data which says that RIM is simply growing a bit more slowly.

Perhaps YOU should show us the data that shows RIM is growing . . . at all.

Think I recall seeing them gaining market share in Indonesia (maybe), but losing it everywhere else.

I'm with the other guy -- my GF has a newer BB for work, and that thing is the clunkiest, slowest . . . it's just this side of a piece of junk.

RIM doesn't just need to do something -- they need to do it now; and INMHO they should start by canning both co-CEO's and get one person in there to run the whole ship. The two of them should write a book on how NOT to run a tech company.

 

[B777Forevar]

One thing Apple will never beat (yet) RIM is in email. Apple is crap in that department

Sad to see RIM go down this low. They where a good company.

 

[spin360]

You missed the part about their phone line still selling well regardless of the OS being a little late.

2009 market share: 40% (http://www.bgr.com/2009/10/28/rim-and-apple-top-u-s-smartphone-market-share/)

Current market share: 9% (http://www.canalys.com/newsroom/htc-takes-lead-us-smart-phone-market)

What constitutes selling "well"? Palm was one of the best selling smart phones in 2006, where are they now?

 

[ecwhite4S]

Never had a Blackberry, but I remember when they were the biggest thing.

I was just thinking the other day that they were definitely dying out.

I cant help but think that their OS and phones, in general, seem cheap and unpolished.

 

[SurferMan]

2009 market share: 40% (http://www.bgr.com/2009/10/28/rim-and-apple-top-u-s-smartphone-market-share/)

Current market share: 9% (http://www.canalys.com/newsroom/htc-takes-lead-us-smart-phone-market)

What constitutes selling "well"? Palm was one of the best selling smart phones in 2006, where are they now?

didn't you know... that's called "slow growth" ... the same "slow growth" that showed them loosing more market share since last year no matter # of units sold. lol

Like somebody else mentioned, RIM is in the same position Kodak found themselves in (Kodak had a huge corporate following as well), you can come out with newer products all you want... but when others are doing stuff better, well.... you see what happens. I don't think RIM will be out of business, but guarantee within 5 years they'll be a fraction of even where their at now, just like Kodak and plenty of others that were tops in their market and now just 'get by'.

 

[scaredpoet]

theres only on thing i ever liked about my blackberry ....BBM probably the best instant messaging service idea ever.. pins...

Really? A hexadecimal identifier that is device-specific (as opposed to user-chosen and user-specific), non-transferable, and apparently non-shareable as we've seen with the Playbook. How is that a good idea?

and all, however the phones are cheap pieces of crap, my 9300 rewind button stopped working after 3 months, my gf had the same phone and her trackpad stopped working just last month, (bought her a 4s)

And each time you had to change PINs, right?

 

[haruhiko]

Someone sounds like a Nokia fan few years ago.

"We are stilling selling well!!"

and then a year later they are jumping off the burning platform.

With the Lumia 800 Nokia is finally on the right way to gain back some market share in smartphones..... and RIM is still in the fact denial stage.