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rMBPs too expensive for market?

Of course they're too expensive. Those prices are ridiculous, especially considering that the only thing they offer over the regular MBPs is a nice-to-have.

I don't blame Apple though. It's like this with all new technologies. People who have rMBPs today are paying a ridiculous premium to have the latest and greatest. In a couple/few years, the rest of us will be able to buy a better rMBP for the price of the regular MBPs today. These first rMBPs are the chance for Apple to get the bugs out and perfect the technology before bringing it to everyone.
 
Geoffre said:
Inflation? Isn't that running at a bit less than 2% right now? Not sure how that's leading to dramatically different MBP prices... Unless of course, you're one of those folks who thinks quantitative easing automatically equals inflation! LOL.
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You'll note that I said real inflation - not the government issued fakeness that you're quoting. I can't think of very many things for which I am only paying 2% more than I was last year - can you? Trace your own price index back against the CPI and see what you come up with. I'll save you the trouble - answer: a manipulated index.

Real inflation, BTW, is simply the expansion of the money supply, which results in the aggregate price increases that everyone mistakenly calls inflation. Inflation is not a rise in aggregate prices, a rise in aggregate prices is the result of inflation of the money supply. We all used to understand this back before the fed switched to targeting "prices" instead of directly targeting money supply (as if they're actually different!), but most of us sheep are too young to remember those days, making us all the more ripe for the fleecing.

And yes, QE is just a euphemism for inflation of the money supply, and the point of it is to raise aggregate prices, as stupid as that is. Even the Fed will be honest enough to admit that.

So ultimately, the next rMBP may not actually be any cheaper in absolute price terms, but I believe that it will be cheaper in terms of the purchasing power required to acquire it.


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KPOM said:
As a 13" rMBP owner (and a previous owner of MacBook Airs all the way back to the 1,1 model in February 2008), I wonder whether Apple intended the rMBP to be a volume seller in 2012/early 2013. It is a nice computer, to be sure, and a step up from my 2012 MacBook Air but it certainly isn't for everyone. It seems more like a proof of concept while Apple sort out the yield and manufacturing issues.

That said, I do expect that the rMBP will become a mainstream model within a year. Yields seem to be improving, and even ASUS is floating the idea of a 2880x1620 (16:9) screen in a 15" notebook, so evidently availability will improve as well. I think we'll fairly quickly reach a point where we all can't imagine a world without HiDPI displays (much as how "Retina" displays are mainstream even on cheap Android phones just 3 years after the iPhone 4 was released).
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^^^ Et voila! ^^^



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The rMBP is a premium laptop and is priced as such - any comparable Windows machine costs at least the same if not more. It is a fairly niche machine so I don't think that its supposed to 'make or break' the Mac sales.

As others already commented, the general laptop market is in decline because of tablets and such - Apple figures look fairly ok on that background. And the iMac issue is a serious one as well.
 
The question in the title of this thread is the wrong one. Too expensive for market? There is no market. If you want this type of machine, you have only one choice: Apple. Once PC-makers enter the market, Apple will either reduce prices (less likely) or add features to maintain a premium market position, as with iPad.
 
Thanks for all the replies. I read everything, many good points are being made.

MTD's Mac said:
The question in the title of this thread is the wrong one. Too expensive for market? There is no market. If you want this type of machine, you have only one choice: Apple. Once PC-makers enter the market, Apple will either reduce prices (less likely) or add features to maintain a premium market position, as with iPad.
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Well, it's a laptop. Compared to other macs, it has a higher screen resolution. Compared with other laptops in general, it has a higher screen resolution, OSX , a nice aluminum body and a high quality touchpad. Everything else is stock and can be found in numerous other laptops (not necessarily much cheaper though).

I don't think that Apple intends to produce the rMBP only as a niche product. They actually took away other products (17'' MBP) because they were not generating sales. Eventually these machines will have to replace the cMBPs (among them, the top selling 13''), since Apple refuses to put any further innovation into the cMBP line.

In case this wasn't clear from my first post. I don't think the 15'' rMBP is too expensive for what it offers compared to the cMBPs. I would probably buy one if my current MBP was older than a year.
 
thundersteele said:
Well, it's a laptop. Compared to other macs, it has a higher screen resolution. Compared with other laptops in general, it has a higher screen resolution, OSX , a nice aluminum body and a high quality touchpad. Everything else is stock and can be found in numerous other laptops (not necessarily much cheaper though).
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There have been $3,000+ laptops for a long time. The rMBP is something of a niche product, for now. Hence, no relevant broader market to speak of. The Retina display really does set it apart. Whether that's important is up to the individual user, but it impacts the use experience, productivity (for graphics professionals, etc.), the producer's costs, the supply chain, the marketing, etc. In any case, you make a good point. It will be very interesting to revisit this conversation in a year or two.
 
derbothaus said:
Cost of user experience? Surely managing dongles for basic functionality is not the height of user functionality. Shrinking and miniaturizing things should not always be the engineering boner Apple's spoon fed fans think it is. So far I hear nothing but PR regurgitation.
Thank goodness magsafe2 didn't make it as well considering the e-waste I alone would contribute with my 5+ chargers. Not to mention the other actual professionals who have multiples of these things.
Yes, eventually you have to move on and I feel Apple is doing a great job offering both. It isn't fracturing their focus but giving users what they actually need, a little choice. If I could get the retina screen with ethernet and FW800 and a standard 2.5" SATA bay (which can fit) I'd be all over it. Love every bit of the screen. Not a fan of the implications.
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I am not citing the adapter change as being good or bad, I'm saying that the fact that Apple didn't change the connector when tooling costs to do so are minimal is indicative that they don't really intend to keep the design around.

How do you fit the ethernet port when the ethernet port is taller than the machine itself? The lack of ethernet isn't an issue for 90% of the population and the thunderbolt adapter probably satisfies the needs of most of those who need ethernet. I think it is a good move.

I don't see the fascination with having a SATA bay. You can get a USB3 enclosure and/or a Thunderbolt enclosure and have the same functionality for all intents and purposes. Fitting a standard height drive would increase the height of the machine. If you have opened up one of the rMBPs you will see there really isn't room for another drive.

Perhaps I am different in that I have a far more powerful desktop PC to use and only use my MacBook when I need mobility.
 
I completely agree with the OP.

I was thinking the same thing when I saw the decline in Mac sales.

I'm sure iPads and iMac supply issues contributed to the decline but I think the far bigger issue is that the only place where Apple really brought something new and noteworthy to the Mac laptop line (which outsells desktops by a lot) is in the really overpriced and questionably practical retina displays.

I'm not saying Apple shouldn't offer expensive options. I really like their laptop computers. But in 2009 when I bought my first Mac it cost me $1099 to get exactly what I wanted (a light but powerful computer). This time around it cost me $1449 to buy a refurb that would give me what I needed in a computer (still a light and powerful computer) without buying something that looked externally exactly the same as my old computer. The point is Apple is not innovating in the affordable (for Apple) market. They're only innovating at the high end and I think it is hurting them.
 
thundersteele said:
I have been thinking about the decline in Mac sales. I understand that Apple blames most of it on supply issues and one week less of sales, and that's fair enough.

However there is another way to look at things. Apple introduced two new Mac products this year, the 13'' and 15'' rMBPs. If we discard the 17'' MBP that never contributed any significant sales, the number of available models increased from 4 to 6, i.e. 50%. Despite this increased model range, MacBook sales (air, classic, retina) did als decline compared to the year ago quarter.

I wonder if the rMBPs are just too expensive to generate strong sales right now. Remember that the 17'' MBP previously was the only machine with a starting price north of $2000, and was discontinued due to weak demand. Similarly $1700 for a 13'' machine without graphics card is a lot to swallow. If I remember correctly, the Air had similar issue with a very high starting price, while it is now a success.

Apple should be able to reduce the price for the next generation of rMBPs. Flash storage prices continue to drop, and also the yields on the retina screens and unibodys should improve over time. $2000 flat should be possible as starting price for the next generation 15'' rMBP. For the 13'' I'm less certain how much can be done... in my opinion it should go down to $1400, but that's quite a bit.

It will also be interesting to see whether the cMBPs will stay around (maybe only the 13'' as "low cost" option). I also wonder if we will see anything new before June/July, which is when the new Intel CPUs are said to arrive.
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I don't think the rMBPs are too expensive to generate strong Mac sales.

Apple still has other Mac computers (MacBook Air, unibody classic MacBook Pro, Mac Mini, and the still-need-an-update Mac Pro) to generate Mac sales.

Looking at it another way, Apple simply axed the most unpopular MacBook Pro, and replaced it with 2 unpopular models. If anything, they gave users more choices versus less choices. I think you have realized this as well.

So the viewpoint that Retina MacBooks are too expensive is just there when one can't accept the fact that iPads at $500 price point and below sell much better than full-size mobile computers that start at $1000. Also to note... those who can't afford a retina MacBook but still need a Mac would just buy one of the still available models (Air or classic Pro).

Even if you throw rMBPs at users at the same price point as the unibody classic MacBook Pros right now, what's the guarantee that people will flock to buy MacBooks again?

So I sincerely disagree that rMBPs are too expensive for the market. Simply because they aren't the only computers people can buy from Apple.
 
I think the decline in Mac sales is a testament to how well the competition is doing. Hell, I'm even thinking about getting a new Lenovo Ideapad. They look great the new Yoga looks awesome. At a much better price too. This isn't the windows XP days where Apple can say OSX is the only OS out there that doesn't get viruses, etc. Windows is doing much better now and I think that's why Apple's sales are declining. Apple needs to lower their prices if they want to be competitive. You can only rely on brand loyalty for so long.
 
intothepolis said:
I think the decline in Mac sales is a testament to how well the competition is doing. Hell, I'm even thinking about getting a new Lenovo Ideapad. They look great the new Yoga looks awesome. At a much better price too. This isn't the windows XP days where Apple can say OSX is the only OS out there that doesn't get viruses, etc. Windows is doing much better now and I think that's why Apple's sales are declining. Apple needs to lower their prices if they want to be competitive. You can only rely on brand loyalty for so long.
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What??? No one is falling over themselves to get acquainted with Win 8. Sorry. PC's are what they have always been. A sum of their parts fighting for marketing strength and visibility. They are the definition of compromise. Apple will not change (not sure of post-Jobs Apple). They already sell to the masses with their smart phones.
 
derbothaus said:
What??? No one is falling over themselves to get acquainted with Win 8. Sorry. PC's are what they have always been. A sum of their parts fighting for marketing strength and visibility. They are the definition of compromise. Apple will not change (not sure of post-Jobs Apple). They already sell to the masses with their smart phones.
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Well, that's your opinion. I have mine.
 
I think the cMBP is just too expensive. Put a 256GB/512GB SSD drive and 16 RAM in a cMBP and the machine is at least or even more expensive then the rMBP.

If you definitely want a SSD, then it is a hard choice to make... rMBP or cMBP.
 
Spink10 said:
I would be surprised by a price cut in the retina's this year. Prices on SSD have not dropped that much over the last 6-9 months.
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I was quite surprised by this. I was looking for a cheap SSD for my parents machine yesterday - still looking at £60-70 for a slow 128GB one - I think I paid somewhere similar to that for a Vertex 2 a couple of years ago!

The baseline prices have held, but the price gap between worst and best has dropped.
 
So... I wasn't completely wrong. I still feel that prices are on the high side, but the retina premium on the 13'' model is now comparable to the 15'' model. SSD pricing also played an important role here, as can be seen from the price drop for the 256GB 13'' air.

No upgrade for the cMBPs... I assume they will remain available, but receive little or no attention... like the white MB, which remained in the education store for a long time.

So now we have the Airs as entry level machines (no retina) and the rMBPs as high end options. I still would like a slightly lower entry price in the 15'' (quad core!) range, but that seems unlikely now.
 
I couldn't be more pleased with my 15" rMBP. I bought it for a few reasons:

1. Photography - The retina screen is wonderful for photo editing.
2. Music recording/production - Logic Pro works just as well for me as Pro Tools did on my PC and now I don't have to be tied to my desk (or lug my PC around with me).
3. One [moderate] gaming platform - Everything I was playing on the PC I'm playing on the rMBP basically one-step down quality wise. This consists mostly of Battlefield 3 and Mechwarrior: Online.
4. Portability - I don't like trying to carry my desktop PC around ;)
5. Ability to run Win/OSX on the same system - I have a couple of programs that are Windows only and now I don't have to even turn my PC on to use them.

Was it expensive? Yes. Is it worth it to me? You bet. $2500-ish is definitely worth it in my case to basically be 4 computers in one (a Mac, a PC, a laptop and a desktop).
 
This Retina display Mac is worth every penny. I always thought it was expensive BUT…

What laptop today is so thin, with this build quality ? Has this display ? Super silent etc etc ? for £1,799

I think if you already own a rMBP you will appreciate the laptop and not moan about the price one bit…


I think people who want everything for £1,000 need to start living a little and realise that you cant't have everything for a little chuck of your pay cheque!

After all Apple is a premium product.

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mslide said:
Of course they're too expensive. Those prices are ridiculous, especially considering that the only thing they offer over the regular MBPs is a nice-to-have.

I don't blame Apple though. It's like this with all new technologies. People who have rMBPs today are paying a ridiculous premium to have the latest and greatest. In a couple/few years, the rest of us will be able to buy a better rMBP for the price of the regular MBPs today. These first rMBPs are the chance for Apple to get the bugs out and perfect the technology before bringing it to everyone.
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Theres no bugs with my machine, I think it can't get anymore perfect but only better with adding newer technologies to the existing technology.

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intothepolis said:
I think the decline in Mac sales is a testament to how well the competition is doing. Hell, I'm even thinking about getting a new Lenovo Ideapad. They look great the new Yoga looks awesome. At a much better price too. This isn't the windows XP days where Apple can say OSX is the only OS out there that doesn't get viruses, etc. Windows is doing much better now and I think that's why Apple's sales are declining. Apple needs to lower their prices if they want to be competitive. You can only rely on brand loyalty for so long.
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Apple do not need to lower their prices, taking into account iPad sales Apple has shipped more tablets & personal computers compared to anyone else.

People are choosing iPad's these days and do not really need a personal computer anymore. My parents only ever use the iPad, they never touch my MacBook Pro, why would they need to ?

Lenovo? If the rMBP was the same price as the Lenovo you would purchase the rMBP right?


I think the real issue here is people need to own it to understand it is a great machine and the best thing money can buy atm. When I have my mid-2010 MacBook pro I would never of thought of getting the rMBP because of the price but when my mid 2010 died, I chose to spoil myself and now this machine is the best thing since slice bread!
 
Good post. I think they are priced a bit too high but Apple has spent time making OS X compatible with the high resolution of the Retina display and also getting manufacturing partners to make the displays. Due to their seemingly monopoly over this they feel they can charge more and I guess they do need to recoup their research and development costs, I bet making OS X resolution independent was not as easy as the end result makes it seem.

I do want to upgrade to a Retina MacBook Pro but I'm still saddened that they abandoned the 17" model. Obviously this was never sold in high volume by Apple so my desires don't really come in to it but it has made me reluctant to buy a 15".

I mean for me it is hard to swallow the 17" price on a 15" notebook. I've had two 17" models that both cost less than the top end 15" rMBP and although at the time their specifications were obviously a lot lower than what we get today I can't just ignore the fact that the hardware Apple is offering is a lot more affordable than they are pricing it at.

I would have definitely bought a rMBP when they first released if the price was about 15-25% lower than what it is today. At the price it is now i'd rather wait for haswell and feel an even larger upgrade. I've had my current 17" MBP since 2009 (it is a Unibody model) and it still runs everything great. The only reason I'd upgrade now is if the next OS X version doesn't support my machine or if the Haswell equipped rMBP's release. I don't feel the current systems are worth their price premium when I already have a capable machine.
 
intothepolis said:
I think the decline in Mac sales is a testament to how well the competition is doing. Hell, I'm even thinking about getting a new Lenovo Ideapad. They look great the new Yoga looks awesome. At a much better price too. This isn't the windows XP days where Apple can say OSX is the only OS out there that doesn't get viruses, etc. Windows is doing much better now and I think that's why Apple's sales are declining. Apple needs to lower their prices if they want to be competitive. You can only rely on brand loyalty for so long.
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Can you point to the "decline" in mac sales? Other than the last quarter (which was explained by the fact that the iMacs were announced at the start but didn't start shipping until the very end of due to the new manufacturing process), Macs have been one of the few vendors (if not the only) that year over year have actually grown their "PC" business!
 
A refurbished 2012 15" rMBP is just over 1,500 UK pounds - is this a good deal?

I assume the price will decrease when the 2013 MBPs come out?
 
paulrbeers said:
Can you point to the "decline" in mac sales? Other than the last quarter (which was explained by the fact that the iMacs were announced at the start but didn't start shipping until the very end of due to the new manufacturing process), Macs have been one of the few vendors (if not the only) that year over year have actually grown their "PC" business!
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Someone's a share holder... :rolleyes:
 
people who have the money for a retina are enjoying it and not posting about how rediculous it is . i have the money for it but i wont buy it just yet. altho one guy posted how he paid 1.6k at best buy for it which makes me mad lol i paid that much for my base 15inch classic. apple knows how to get inside certain peoples wallets. and those are who matter to them
 
The laptop market is depressed, tablet computers and smartphones are cannibalizing rapidly any chance to laptops, world crisis has its impact and that fact also affects MacBook sales, not anyone can afford lavish laptops, they go cheap these days, they don't even bother on how many pixels a laptop has.
 
paulrbeers said:
Can you point to the "decline" in mac sales? Other than the last quarter (which was explained by the fact that the iMacs were announced at the start but didn't start shipping until the very end of due to the new manufacturing process), Macs have been one of the few vendors (if not the only) that year over year have actually grown their "PC" business!
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That said, they dropped SSD prices across the board, so evidently they did think a price drop was necessary to keep momentum going and make the rMBP mainstream. I'm not surprised with the price levels, but thought they might hold off until the Haswell update.
 
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