Rosetta Won't Support x86 Virtualization Apps Running Windows

[arn]

I guess there's this to look forward to in 2021?

Exclusive: Microsoft is working to bring 64-bit Intel app emulation to Windows on ARM

Current Windows on ARM PCs can only run native ARM64 apps and emulated 32-bit Intel apps, but that's all going to change. Microsoft is working to bring 64-bit emulation to the platform.

www.neowin.net

The answer is that like any Windows 10 on ARM PC, it can run native ARM (ARM and ARM64) apps, and it can run emulated 32-bit Intel (x86) apps. This leaves out 64-bit Intel (AMD64, or x64) apps, so if you want an app that's only available in an x64 flavor, such as Adobe Premiere Pro or Photoshop Elements, you can't use it.

That's going to change though. Speaking with several sources, I can confirm that Microsoft is indeed working on bringing x64 app emulation to Windows on ARM. When that will happen is a bit more unclear, but it seems like it could be in Windows 10 21H1, which would mean that the general public will have access to it in the first half of 2021, and Windows Insiders will be able to test it out next year.

 

[anshuvorty]

FWIW, here is Parallel’s official response to the announcement that Apple made regarding transitioning from Intel CPUs to Apple Silicon CPUs:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1275463847537790976

 

[damienbutt]

Goodbye Apple.

Lukily my current MBP will last me a good 5 years from now. I may even purchase an MBA next year as well.

After that I guess it’s a Linux machine with a Windows partition and virtualization options.

 

[commander.data]

I'm guessing the issue is that Rosetta 2 doesn't support the Intel VT instructions currently used by Parallels and VMWare for hardware accelerated virtualization.

Configuring Virtual Machine Processor Settings

You can configure processor settings for a virtual machine, including the number of processors, the number of cores per processor, and the preferred execution mode for the virtualization engine.

docs.vmware.com

VMWare at least used to have an option to disable Intel VT and used binary translation for virtualization, but I believe it only worked for x86 guest OS which is probably why it was removed from recent versions of VMWare Fusion and Workstation. They could presumably restore the binary translation option to provide x86 guest OS compatibility for Apple silicon Macs through Rosetta as an interim solution until a native Apple silicon solution is developed.

 

[ebika]

I want to know what this does to Docker/HyperKit. If we lose the ability to run Docker on ARM macs, that will mean hundreds of mac users in IT at my company alone will migrate to something else. I would expect this would bork a large percentage of engineers developing for any modern cloud tech stack. In my case, I'll go back to linux. I enjoy linux, but being pushed out of the glistening walled garden of the Apple ecosystem on my laptop is going to sting a lot. I know Apple makes a lot more money from their non-pro market, but it sucks how they've been systematically dismantling so many of their offerings tailored towards pros.

 

[DummyFool]

Even if Microsoft as already a Windows version for arm, i would guess the snapdragons architecture is nothing like Apple's A chips even if both are arm.

 

[gleepskip]

I want to know what this does to Docker/HyperKit.

They showed the Docker client running during the demo.

 

[commander.data]

I guess there's this to look forward to in 2021?

Exclusive: Microsoft is working to bring 64-bit Intel app emulation to Windows on ARM

Current Windows on ARM PCs can only run native ARM64 apps and emulated 32-bit Intel apps, but that's all going to change. Microsoft is working to bring 64-bit emulation to the platform.

www.neowin.net

I suppose this means one way to get Intel Windows applications to run on Apple silicon Macs will be to virtualize ARM Windows which seems like the software equivalent of using a dongle.

 

[mattlqx]

Not surprisingly, people are confused on what virtualization actually is. Simply put, it enables a computer to be partitioned in such a way that a guest operating system can be isolated from the host operating system. The guest and host operating systems must share the same architecture because virtualization is not emulation. The guest OS is sending untranslated machine instructions to the CPU.

In emulation, an emulator can run a piece of software by translating the software's machine language instructions to native instructions the host can understand. This is invariably slower, often much slower. This was a thing before already if you remember Microsoft's Virtual PC app for the PowerPC Macs. It allowed an x86 version of Windows to run under emulation.

Some commenters have noted that there are ARM versions of Windows 10. If there's any future at all for Boot Camp to continue to be supported, it will have to be through that. This may actually be a boost to Microsoft's (admittedly weak) efforts to move away from Intel. More of a desktop install base may be a motivator for Windows application developers to support more than just x86.

I very much noticed how absent the keynote was of the word Windows and all of what I just said is likely why they ignored it entirely. There's a lot of uncertainty on what that ecosystem will look like in 2 years anyway when the migration will be hitting stride.

 

[Cosmosent]

I don't believe Monday's WWDC Hype !

I suspect Apple's new custom Si is intended ONLY for new, lower-end versions of their MacBook Air & 13" MacBook Pro.

NOT a good fit for ANY of their other Macs (for multiple reasons) !

To increase market share, AAPL knows they need to offer cheaper Macs.

As such, it's fairly obvious they will pass the savings on to customers.

As such, the list prices could/should drop by $200 USD per Mac for those two new lower-end versions !

It's a (damn) good strategy !

Take your pick:

MacBook Air for $799 USD, OR 13" MacBook Pro for $1099 USD.

I think either one would be cool to have by year's end !

And please remember, NONE of the so-called Pro Stock Analysts who cover AAPL for a living have ANY Engineering OR Software Development experience ! ... all but a few are very easily Fooled by the Hype !

 

[omenatarhuri]

Now all that Microsoft needs to do is create Windows for ARM that doesn't suck.

...and all the Windows application developers need to recompile to ARM.

 

[kylelerner]

Guess I won’t be able to run Outlook for Windows on Parallels anymore. The Mac version still sucks. I hope they revamp it to make it more similar and powerful to their Windows version, and that it supports PSTs.

 

[omenatarhuri]

I suspect Apple's new custom Si is intended ONLY for new, lower-end versions of their MacBook Air & 13" MacBook Pro.

I think they were quite clear that they meant the entire lineup. I also suspect they will definitely be closer to production with the lower-end offering, but I'm really interested in seeing what they have in store for high-end iMacs and MBPs.

 

[Chargr]

I'd imagine that for 98% of users this isn't a problem but for 2% this presents a major dealbreaker. They will probably lose certain pro customers, but gain others if they are able to provide better or cheaper Macs. I think in the end it will be a net win but curious how it will effect large F500 deployments at places like IBM.

Cheaper Macs? Huh? Where

 

[yurc]

No worries…

I am going to repurpose my hackintosh back into a gaming PC running windows so I can just use that

Yes, I think I’m no longer splurging again on Hackintosh hardware anymore, just enjoy it until it last and then converted into full time Windows workstation, albeit I’ve already dedicated Windows workstation at this time. Quite shame because with current OpenCore development hackintosh is almost behave like genuine Macs.

Previously had plan to save money upgrading my old Mac Pro to new 2019 cheese grater but with this ARM bandwagon I think I cancel that route due uncertainty with Intel chips on Apple ecosystem.

Obviously you won't get native Intel performance on a comparable ARM CPU, but we knew that wasn't happening as soon as we knew the switch to ARM was underway.

Yes, as Intel and AMD keep shipping off shelf boxed x86 CPU, ARM switch in major platform still going long way. But we know Apple…when Apple start something, others will start to follow…

 

[arn]

relevant tweet.

This guy manages VMware Fusion and Workstation

https://twitter.com/x/status/1275483550985318400

 

[Mike Haas]

Boot Camp isn't virtualization. It's Windows running natively on the Mac without MacOS, Parallels, or VMWare. The difference is enormous.

I've bought my last Mac.

Nah. By the time it's necessary to replace my 2019 MBP, all of this conflict will go away. Mac users have a tendency whenever there is change is to pull their skirts over their heads yelling, "Flee! Flee!" You can bet Microsoft will overhaul its present ARM offering, both OSs will migrate to ARM around the same time and virtualization will live on and the Intel platform will fade from memory much like PPC.

This time last year, Catalina arrived in Beta and killed-off 32-bit apps. Every 32-bit app I thought I'd lost was offered in 64-bit by the end of Summer '19. The only thing I've lost forever is Winamp running in Wine. The only thing that troubles me is how rough the road to Catalina actually has been, it still isn't there 100% and now Big Sur. Mojave was a polished OS when Catalina arrived. Catalina isn't polished. This will be the first Summer in many years I won't ride the beta-train.

 

[konqerror]

VMWare at least used to have an option to disable Intel VT and used binary translation for virtualization, but I believe it only worked for x86 guest OS which is probably why it was removed from recent versions of VMWare Fusion and Workstation.

That's different. How pre-VT emulation worked is by finding and rewriting specific privileged instructions into a sequence that called the VMM. Non-privileged instructions ran as-is.

Here, you need to rewrite every single x86 instruction, to a very different architecture, ARM. Things like different register sets, meaning of flags, are totally different.

 

[glindon]

Can’t Parallels and VMware update their apps for apple silicone?

I’m sure they can (they would have to create their own software x86 cpu which is a massive undertaking), but the real question is would it make financial sense? Probably not.

 

[longofest]

Well, I suppose I’ll buy an XPS or a Thinkpad X1 Extreme when my MBP 16 comes out of service.

That sucks. But there’s just no way any of the apps I need are going to be rewritten for ARM, most of them don’t even exist for MacOS, but I get by with Bootcamp or VMWare Fusion.

I know a lot of other fellow engineers of various types will feel my pain here.

I feel your pain, but I’m going to go about solving it completely differently.

This move has me completely out of the macOS world for primary dev. A lot of my development I use Xamarin so I can do most of the development in Windows and then I will just need a mac to compile. I’ll keep around a mac for that and when it dies I’ll get a mac mini or look into one of the co-lo places.

I will continue to use iOS devices (iPhone and iPad) because I’m invested in the ecosystem, but without virtualization support, any future laptop purchase is going to probably be an XPS 15 (the new XPS 15 looks really good).

 

[mattlqx]

I want to know what this does to Docker/HyperKit. If we lose the ability to run Docker on ARM macs, that will mean hundreds of mac users in IT at my company alone will migrate to something else. I would expect this would bork a large percentage of engineers developing for any modern cloud tech stack. In my case, I'll go back to linux. I enjoy linux, but being pushed out of the glistening walled garden of the Apple ecosystem on my laptop is going to sting a lot. I know Apple makes a lot more money from their non-pro market, but it sucks how they've been systematically dismantling so many of their offerings tailored towards pros.

It means the multi-arch image support on Docker Hub is going to be a lot more valuable. Going back to Linux isn't going to help you if you want to do it on a MacBook of the future, but maybe you meant just dumping Apple all together.

I honestly don't think this will be too bad though. Worst case, an x86 VM could be emulated for the case of running x86 Docker images. Emulating a headless system only for Docker should be easier than a whole graphical system in terms of usability and compatibility.

 

[Emre Ugrasiz]

I have always supported revolutions. It is good to have these competitions between companies and ecosystems for development of society. I am pretty much confident about how these new chips will break the records, but performance is not everything. Now, the world around us is requiring to use multiple devices, being flexible, making quick transfers and transitions. This is a huge step but a huge wall at the same time.

Forgive me I’m scared but we all know that, how those 17”MBPs and tower mac pros are still golden after many years. I suppose that, the latest intel macs will be the same in near future. Even if microsoft makes their windows arm perfect, do you really think Intel is just gonna surrender, and disappear in the history pages? It is not the best practice to force people to a certain direction, offering flexible and good quality platforms are more important.

Apple is choosing mobile computing for good. Pro apps, engineering apps, your work apps, gaming world... Not everybody will bother this transition. Accepting x86 and windows’ market share was a must. I dont believe that, this huge level of penetration will be history.


one more thing, i hated the damn ui man. Does not feel like a computer anymore. I will hug and hold on to my 2019 27” forever

 

[FastLaneJB]

This is ultimately why I brought the new Intel 10th gen MacBook Pro 13 even though I knew these ARM based Macs were about to be announced.

I’ve got MacOS for my personal use, a Windows VM for work with all the software I need for that isolated. I connect to customer environments sometimes and for that I have another Windows VM to isolate it. I’ve got a 5700 XT eGPU so I can dock and run 3x4K screens on it and with a bit of fudging can Bootcamp into Windows to play the odd game occasionally. This one machine can do everything I need.

I’m still quite stoked for the ARM Mac’s. I can imagine how awesome it would be for Apple to do a 2in1 laptop with touchscreen and Apple Pencil support. You can run iPad apps so they’d instantly have a far better collection of touch optimised apps than Windows 10.

Just not going to jump on this too quickly. I think if MS can improve Windows 10 on ARM along with gaming then it might workout. Won’t cover my boot camp use case but I’ll just have to have a dedicated machine instead. My use case isn’t normal though so I doubt Apple will care too much.

Oh and also need Docker. They said it’s coming but they’ll have to emulate x86 and x86_64 for that. Yes there’s no doubt Docker images for ARM but everything I need to build has to run on Intel servers. If it cannot run Intel based containers then it’s useless to me.

 

[gleepskip]

To increase market share, AAPL knows they need to offer cheaper Macs.

As such, it's fairly obvious they will pass the savings on to customers.

As such, the list prices could/should drop by $200 USD per Mac for those two new lower-end versions !

I totally disagree. As always, Apple will price the machines based on the market, not cost.

 

[Tounet]

They showed the Docker client running during the demo.

Docker will run but in theory will only be able to run ARM images and build ARM images which will limit it's usefulness... Unless they run some sort of emulation layer using QEMU for example.