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One other thing. My wife plays Java games on pogo.com, and her favorite (Turbo 21) has redraw problems in Safari. At that, it's better than IE or Mozilla in the same game, although none of them runs it 100% correctly.

To be fair, that same game would toast her old Win98/IE combo, forcing frequent reboots.
 
Re: Off the subject.......

Now, if the Help application could get to use the Safari code I would be quite happy. I certainly do not hope Safari and OS integration is equal to a new IE/Windoze thing...

That scares me... much...

Originally posted by Sonofhaig
The "G" in GOD should be capitalized. (It's a sign of respect)
Otherwise, (My opinion) don't use the word....

It's not an uppercase "G", it's an uppercase "O" as in the One. It's only one the One. Oh no, wait, it's the sixth incarnation.... OMG... sorry... oh my the one....

Darn, think I'm going crazy...
 
Okay first off, there is a presumption that the iTunes Music Store uses Safari/WebCore code (internally -- as Safari does not need to be installed to use iTMS) to render the pages which is wrong.

If you examine the XML returned by the iTMS requests, you'll see that it's actually an XML representation of the object hierarchy of Carbon HIView objects. It's a very clever serialization of the carbon interface objects (scroll panes, buttons etc.) in an XML document generated by WebObjects, and I'm really excited with what Apple might do with it. But it is not related to Safari. We are not talking HTML or CSS here.

Apart from that, Apple has clearly stated to developers that WebCore (the Safari HTML/XML/CSS rendering engine) and JavaScriptCore will be provided as public frameworks for Apple and third-party use at some point in the future (from which you can definitely presume Panther, and possible also Jaguar with the 1.0 release of Safari).

Richard
 
Re: Browser integration

Originally posted by MacKid
TTwo, I'm not trying to be a b****, but can someone explain to me how a browser can be "integrated into an operating system"? I'm sure you're imagining me saying all this with a loud, cranky, voice, but I'm not trying to point out faults or call people stupid, just clearing a misconception and wondering how a browser can be integrated. Just a simple question :) .

Go to "Apple > About this Mac", click on "More Info…" and Apple System Profiler should come up. In that, click on the "Frameworks" tab.

These are libraries of software code that, because of the object orientation of Cocoa, are easy to use in any of your application. This is how, without AppleScript, software can be written in, say a small business accounting package or FAX system, that tightly integrates your personal address book (AddressBook.framework). If you scroll to the right, you'll notice that all these frameworks are located somewhere in /System/*.

There is a framework WebCore.framework(?) that is in Safari's app (it would appear as /Applications/Safari/..., if ASP showed it). The assumption of "tighter integration of Safari in Panther" would mean that this framework would be moved to /System/* and multiple applications would then take advantage of it for rendering HTML/CSS and handling XML DOM as well as other things (like integrating an internet browser inside a pane in your own application). Right now, for safety, Apple has to bundle the framework with any application that takes advantage of it (because Safari may or may not be installed in your computer). Also, right now, that framework's calls have not been documented or finalized.

I hope that explains what people are talking about: simply moving a set of files from one area to another.

Windows takes advantage of this heavily. This is why, if you look at Explorer.exe, you'll find that it's <200 kilobytes. Because all the real meat has been put directly into the operating system. Doing this makes it easy for programmers and reduces the total codebase (no duplicate copies of the same library need to be stored in hard drive or in memory when running) and eases a bit the upgrade process (no need to replace and re-release so much software if a bug is found). The price is security (single point of vulnerability, doing this too much makes the system homogeonous) and speed (library needs to be loaded).

Re: Microsoft's lawsuit. The problem wasn't just the integration of the browser into the OS. There was an added problem where Microsoft claimed removing the browser would break the OS, despite the obvious evidence that removing Explorer.exe and some associated icons doesn't interfere with the normal operation of the system at all.

This idea isn't new. Emacs started out as a text editor but became much more. Windows started out as a navigator on DOS and took that over. Netscape Communicator was targetted to do the same to Windows (and stupidly was their overt busines plan). It was that last thing, that caused Netscape stock to skyrocket and start the dotCom boom; it was the realization that this might work that cause Microsoft to react so swiftly by starting up an internet divison, purchasing Mosaic, introducing IE, and integrating it in the OS with Windows 98.

Now that the barn door is open, I see no reason to try and close it now. A little tighter integration is a good thing.

terry
 
Originally posted by Bozola
The real question is...

Will it cost money?

Somehow I think not. Apple may be in business to make money, but charging for Safari wouldn't be a good idea, especially as long as IE is free. I could see Apple adding Safari to some other software pack, giving it an extra feature, and calling it "Safari PRO", but I think there will always be a free version of Safari around.

...

As to the offtopic "god/God" discussion, the real solution has more to do with grammar than respect.

'god' is a noun while 'God' is a proper noun, that is, a name.

For example, you could say, "Mother, come here!" OR, "Mother is always prudent." However, when speaking of mothers in general you don't capitalize it or when you take the possessive form you leave it uncapitalized. The same is true of using 'god'/'God'.

"my god is a bull" would be correct
"gods are bulls" would also be correct
"God, hear me!" is correct as it is clearly a name
"God is a good person." is correct because you are using it as a name
then again, "the god is a good person" is merely a noun

It all depends if you are using it as a proper noun or not. If you mean 'god' in general, then don't capitalize, otherwise do, since in English we always capitalize names and titles when they are used as names.
 
there is an academic in the US who rejects the use of capital letters in her name and is published as 'belle hooks'.

Edit: Have never used Safari but I look forward to deleting another piece M$ in the near future!

-p
 
Re: Off the subject.......

Originally posted by Sonofhaig
The "G" in GOD should be capitalized. (It's a sign of respect)
Otherwise, (My opinion) don't use the word....
dude, don't be so arrogant. (a) this is an online forum where people can choose not to capitalize, much the same way as i choose not to in most cases. (b) furthermore, capitalizing "god" is thoroughly unnecessary. were you raised in some authoritarian denomination or something? capitalizing god doesn't make you respect him more, and i certainly see a hell of a lot of people who have no respect for god going around capitalizing "His" name.

moreover, you passed over what you, i am sure, would consider the greater sin, taking the lord's name in vain, to bug me about not capitalizing it? i'm sorry dude, that's just too stupid for words. please, this is not a religious forum. this is the news discussion. back on topic.

Apple needs to hurry and get keyword links to bookmarks implemented, plus an "open link from other app in new tab" option. that last one bothers me like none other.
 
Re: Re: Off the subject.......

Originally posted by Shadowfax
"open link from other app in new tab" option. that last one bothers me like none other.

Definately, this gets on my nerves no end aswell.

AppleMatt
 
Re: Re: Off the subject.......

Originally posted by Shadowfax

Apple needs to hurry and get keyword links to bookmarks implemented, plus an "open link from other app in new tab" option. that last one bothers me like none other.

Just enable tabbed browsing, and select Open links from other app in current window. It will actually do what you describe, not replace the current active tab.
 
Re: Re: Re: Off the subject.......

Originally posted by Vonnie
Just enable tabbed browsing, and select Open links from other app in current window. It will actually do what you describe, not replace the current active tab.
cool. thanks. nevertheless, with so many years of that option using the same window and just going over the current page, this setting is extremely misleading. they need to fix that. it should be three options.
 
Re: Re: Off the subject.......

Originally posted by Shadowfax
dude, don't be so arrogant. (a) this is an online forum where people can choose not to capitalize, much the same way as i choose not to in most cases. (b) furthermore, capitalizing "god" is thoroughly unnecessary. were you raised in some authoritarian denomination or something? capitalizing god doesn't make you respect him more, and i certainly see a hell of a lot of people who have no respect for god going around capitalizing "His" name.

moreover, you passed over what you, i am sure, would consider the greater sin, taking the lord's name in vain, to bug me about not capitalizing it? i'm sorry dude, that's just too stupid for words. please, this is not a religious forum. this is the news discussion. back on topic.

Apple needs to hurry and get keyword links to bookmarks implemented, plus an "open link from other app in new tab" option. that last one bothers me like none other.

Thanks for putting me in my place, dude.
 
great job tychay...that's about what I was going to say.

Now, I don't know if anyone has bothered to just take a gander at the WWDC schedules. Tuesday, from 2:00pm - 3:30pm there's a session on Safari...and it's an Application Framework session. On Thursday at 3:30, there's another session specifically for "Advanced Foundation URL APIs" which I figure is a more indepth look at the guts of what makes Safari work. Lastly, on Friday at 9:00am there's another framework talk on "Advanced WebKit APIs". Considering that "WebKit" doesn't exists in 10.2, I'll bet this is the "intergrated" part that everyone seems so worried about.

I paid my own way to go to WWDC last year, and damn do I *really* want to go this year...but can't afford it. I'm gunning for next year though.

Worst part about attending WWDC though, is you can't tell anyone about what you learned there :( unless of course, they signed an NDA too :D
 
Re: Re: Okay. . .

Originally posted by areyouwishing
If you have access to a PC, open up "my computer" and in the address bar, type "www.macrumors.com" THAT my friend is browser integration, you went directly from your computer to the internet without having to open the browser.

If you really mean "how can" i am sure someone with a little more software engineering skills could answer that one, but in a nutshell, the backbone of the os is built out of the browser.

OOOOH! I never thought about it like that. That'd be cool, to be able to type in something in a Finder window and be able to browse the internet through the Finder. I'm definitely never going to be in marketing/product design. . . Je suis tres bête!
 
Re: Re: Browser integration

Originally posted by tychay
Go to "Apple > About this Mac", click on "More Info?" and Apple System Profiler should come up. In that, click on the "Frameworks" tab.

These are libraries of software code that, because of the object orientation of Cocoa, are easy to use in any of your application. This is how, without AppleScript, software can be written in, say a small business accounting package or FAX system, that tightly integrates your personal address book (AddressBook.framework). If you scroll to the right, you'll notice that all these frameworks are located somewhere in /System/*.

There is a framework WebCore.framework(?) that is in Safari's app (it would appear as /Applications/Safari/..., if ASP showed it). The assumption of "tighter integration of Safari in Panther" would mean that this framework would be moved to /System/* and multiple applications would then take advantage of it for rendering HTML/CSS and handling XML DOM as well as other things (like integrating an internet browser inside a pane in your own application). Right now, for safety, Apple has to bundle the framework with any application that takes advantage of it (because Safari may or may not be installed in your computer). Also, right now, that framework's calls have not been documented or finalized.

I hope that explains what people are talking about: simply moving a set of files from one area to another.

Windows takes advantage of this heavily. This is why, if you look at Explorer.exe, you'll find that it's <200 kilobytes. Because all the real meat has been put directly into the operating system. Doing this makes it easy for programmers and reduces the total codebase (no duplicate copies of the same library need to be stored in hard drive or in memory when running) and eases a bit the upgrade process (no need to replace and re-release so much software if a bug is found). The price is security (single point of vulnerability, doing this too much makes the system homogeonous) and speed (library needs to be loaded).

Re: Microsoft's lawsuit. The problem wasn't just the integration of the browser into the OS. There was an added problem where Microsoft claimed removing the browser would break the OS, despite the obvious evidence that removing Explorer.exe and some associated icons doesn't interfere with the normal operation of the system at all.

This idea isn't new. Emacs started out as a text editor but became much more. Windows started out as a navigator on DOS and took that over. Netscape Communicator was targetted to do the same to Windows (and stupidly was their overt busines plan). It was that last thing, that caused Netscape stock to skyrocket and start the dotCom boom; it was the realization that this might work that cause Microsoft to react so swiftly by starting up an internet divison, purchasing Mosaic, introducing IE, and integrating it in the OS with Windows 98.

Now that the barn door is open, I see no reason to try and close it now. A little tighter integration is a good thing.

terry

I didn't really mean "how" as in the technical programming aspects, but hey, even though I didn't read anything past the "open Frameworks", thanks. . .!
 
Originally posted by Jeff Harrell
:rolleyes: For instance?

I still cannot search the contents of the checking register displayed by my credit union's home banking product. I don't have this problem with any other browser I have tried. It even works as it should in Konquerer (sic?).
 
other things to try when the site appears "broken"

Originally posted by RIP
I still cannot search the contents of the checking register displayed by my credit union's home banking product. I don't have this problem with any other browser I have tried. It even works as it should in Konquerer (sic?).

The fact that the site works Konquer implies it's not a broken Browser Detect script. However, As I said earlier:
  1. Did you try turning off Block pop-up windows? (Cool Tip: Hit Command-K)
  2. Did you try Accepting Cookies Always (Preferences… Security… Accept Cookies: Always
    [/list=1]

    If that fixes the problem, then the problem with moronic web programmers. Odds are, even if that doesn't fix the problem, the problem is probably still the fault of a bad web programmer.

    Take care,
 
Originally posted by Bozola
The real question is...

Will it cost money?

I would love to see Apple try. As Safari uses OpenSource technology released under the GPL, it cannot be sold(unless it was in a commercial package eg. Mac OS X).

Also, if apple sold it, Safari will probely be in the iLife package
 
Originally posted by kjwebb
I would love to see Apple try. As Safari uses OpenSource technology released under the GPL, it cannot be sold(unless it was in a commercial package eg. Mac OS X).

Woow, hold on there. Two things to note:

Webcore (KHTML) is LGPL. Apple isn't forced to make Safari OpenSource, or release it under the GPL. And indeed, Apple releases Safari as a closed source piece of software.

But, if Apple makes improvements to KHTML/Webcore, they have to contribute it back to the KDE project. (or to anyone else who asks for it) They don't have to give the source of Safari to KDE.

The second thing is that GPL/LGPL allows you to charge money for software. You cannot restrict further distribution though. So Apple can charge you 10$ for Webcore for example, eventhough it is under the LGPL. Apple cannot prevent though that you put Webcore on the internet for everyone to download.

A more obvious example is OmniWeb. Omni announced that they will use WebCore for their future browser. This doesn't mean that OmniWeb will cost 0$. Omni will not have to release the source of omniweb either. But, if Omni makes a change to Webcore, they have to contribute that change back to Apple/KDE.

If apple makes a change to webcore, so it displays a certain webpage correctly, that change will also end up in konqueror and omniweb. If kde fixes a bug in khtml/webcore that prevented someone to do online-banking, that fix will also end up in omniweb and safari.
 
Re: Off the subject.......

Originally posted by Sonofhaig
The "G" in GOD should be capitalized. (It's a sign of respect)
Otherwise, (My opinion) don't use the word....

Would A dyslexic type it doG or Dog ?
 
Originally posted by Vonnie
Woow, hold on there. .....

Okay, so I haven't got my facts right. I thought that KDE stuff was GPL. (other than this above post, I found out yesterday when looking at the about boxes in KDE and saw that some of the programs was LGPL)
 
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