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Samsung's 'Crisis of Design' Memo Enters Patent Trial as Early Apple Designer Testifies on Confusion

Tones2 said:
I don't understand how a former APPLE designer Susan Kare could be used as an expert supposedly neutral witness. Even so, if she picked up a Samsung phone and thought it wa an iPhone she's anything BUT an expert. Jeez. :rolleyes:

In case case, if Apple wins this ridiculous lawsuit I will never buy an Apple product again. I really mean that.
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Lol I doubt you have ever bought an Apple product...
 
Zerotolerance said:
Hopefully, for the sake of the consumer, Apple will win this lawsuit. Don't get me wrong--Steve's vision for what a phone should be is great, but what's not great is that it's the only vision out there. Just think of the kinds of choices consumers might have if other companies were forced to invent their own visions.
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Steve didn't have a " vision ", he was good at marketing. The iPhone literally brought nothing to the table besides multi touch ( which I don't care about anyway ). It just happened to be the first popular consumer smart phone. In many ways, the first iPhone was a POS compared to other smart phones.
 
Tones2 said:
Yes, about 15 of them I assume doesn't qualify. :rolleyes:
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Have you read the document (samsungs) above detailing how Samsung looked to change its UI based on the iPhone?

If you read that and still think this lawsuit is ridiculous there is no hope for you.
 
G51989 said:
Steve didn't have a " vision ", he was good at marketing. The iPhone literally brought nothing to the table besides multi touch ( which I don't care about anyway ). It just happened to be the first popular consumer smart phone. In many ways, the first iPhone was a POS compared to other smart phones.
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Yes, I'm sure history has proven you correct.

Fortunately for Apple, Steve's same lack of "vision" has struck again with the iPad, which happened to be the first popular consumer tablet, which I'm quite sure that you would describe as a "POS" compared to other tablets.

Lather, rinse, repeat.
 
smoledman said:
So what? Is Apple going to ban Galaxy phones and demand Sammy pay $4 billion or what? Why should Apple get any more cash, they already have made their fair share of profits and then some!
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Hey man, how about you give me a copy of all your work so I can use for free? I hear you are kinda rich. I'm also rich but I'm sure wouldn't mind!
 
BvizioN said:
Why? Don't they get payed the equivalent of what they would normaly earn on their regular jobs? Just curious.... i don't live in US.
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Because in this ******* country it's considered your "civic duty" to be a juror. They compensate you - in my state anyway - $12.00 a day.
 
Jamesesesesess said:
http://gizmodo.com/5932793/here-is-..._source=gizmodo_twitter&utm_medium=socialflow

WHY has this not been posted yet?! :eek:
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Thanks for the link to the Samsung iPhone v S review document.

It's no surprise to anyone who's actually worked in a large corporation, that a comparision review was done. I'd suspect that they could find reports doing comparisons to Windows Phones, WebOS, etc as well.

The important part is to read the "Directions for Improvement" at the bottom of each page. That's where any evidence of mass copying would be. As it turns out, those directions are pretty much what any software designer would come up with. For examples:

EMAIL - Samsung notes that the iPhone has both Previous and Next buttons to move between emails, while they only an Older button. Recommendation: add a Next button as well.

EMAIL - When showing a message, the keyboard always pops up on the S1. On the iPhone, it doesn't. Recommendation: don't show the keyboard.

WIFI - The setup is done on one screen in the iPhone, vs two in the Samsung. Recommendation: do it on one screen.

And so forth. Doesn't seem to be any earth shattering copying going on. It's mostly about adding similar functionality, without copying the screens themselves.

In fact, one of the notes at the end is about the choice of adding a rounded rectangle backdrop behind the icons on the App drawer screen. It points out that this design decision could give the impression of copying, which they don't want to do. Recommendation: "Remove a feeling that iPhone's menu icons are copied, by differentiating design."

In other words, the review recommended NOT looking so much like the iPhone.
 
babyj said:
Wow. They should use this in dictionaries as an example for "smoking gun".

How can anyone say Samsung didn't copy when there is a Samsung document listing over 100 ways the iPhone is better with the solution to each being copy the iPhone?
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Yet, the pro Samsung folks here are still adamant that Samsung did not copy. I guess pigs are flying. Actually scratch that, all the farm animals are flying.
 
linux2mac said:
Yet, the pro Samsung folks here are still adamant that Samsung did not copy. I guess pigs are flying. Actually scratch that, all the farm animals are flying.
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I guess you need to re-read the document AND KDarling's post.

Competitive and comparative analysis is nothing new. It's not a "bible" for how to copy.
 
interlard said:
It's the jurors I feel bad for. They are prevented from earning a living while mega-billionaires fight over what shape their plastic boxes are. I don't think I'll want to buy an Apple or Samsung product again.
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Why? They are legally obligated to get paid during this... It's like taking a vacation but still getting paid as if you had a full shift everyday.

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Tones2 said:
In case case, if Apple wins this ridiculous lawsuit I will never buy an Apple product again. I really mean that.
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I'm sure Apple will miss your business... Maybe they should have thought twice on trying to get even with a competitor by getting 2 billion dollars... They will truly miss your $10,000 that you've spent on them.
 
babyj said:
Wow. They should use this in dictionaries as an example for "smoking gun".

How can anyone say Samsung didn't copy when there is a Samsung document listing over 100 ways the iPhone is better with the solution to each being copy the iPhone?
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Because the solution isn't to copy the iPhone in most cases ? They are just comparing to a known good usability source and saying how to improve their own.

I've wasted 10 minutes reading through it and it's not the smoking gun people claim. Have you even read some of these ?

How is it copying the iPhone in this case :

Screen Shot 2012-08-08 at 9.03.08 AM.png

So the problem is multiple items with the same icon can be used, they notice it might cause user confusion, something Apple did not permit on the iPhone. The solution is ... don't allow it. And that's what you call "smoking gun evidence of copying the iPhone" ?

:rolleyes:

Pray tell, what other solution is there ? Palette swap the icons that are the same or something like the good old of days of NES, lazy graphic designers and palette swapped monsters ?

kdarling said:
In other words, the review recommended NOT looking so much like the iPhone.
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Yeah, a bunch I read was "fix the spacing, fix the font sizing" but none was "let's just scrap this entire UI design and use the one for the iPhone".

Of course, now a few media outlets will call this "damning evidence" without even having gone through it, a bunch of people here, mostly "Apple can do no wrong!" will claim it is a bible of Samsung's copying without having read it either.

Then us people that actually read it will be called Samsung Fanboys.
 
kdarling said:
Thanks for the link to the Samsung iPhone v S review document.

It's no surprise to anyone who's actually worked in a large corporation, that a comparision review was done. I'd suspect that they could find reports doing comparisons to Windows Phones, WebOS, etc as well.

The important part is to read the "Directions for Improvement" at the bottom of each page. That's where any evidence of mass copying would be. As it turns out, those directions are pretty much what any software designer would come up with. For examples:

EMAIL - Samsung notes that the iPhone has both Previous and Next buttons to move between emails, while they only an Older button. Recommendation: add a Next button as well.

EMAIL - When showing a message, the keyboard always pops up on the S1. On the iPhone, it doesn't. Recommendation: don't show the keyboard.

WIFI - The setup is done on one screen in the iPhone, vs two in the Samsung. Recommendation: do it on one screen.

And so forth. Doesn't seem to be any earth shattering copying going on. It's mostly about adding similar functionality, without copying the screens themselves.

In fact, one of the notes at the end is about the choice of adding a rounded rectangle backdrop behind the icons on the App drawer screen. It points out that this design decision could give the impression of copying, which they don't want to do. Recommendation: "Remove a feeling that iPhone's menu icons are copied, by differentiating design."

In other words, the review recommended NOT looking so much like the iPhone.
Click to expand...

Phew, as long as thy are only trying to copy every feature of the iPhone and not only copying the design.

*over exaggerated eye roll*

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KnightWRX said:
Because the solution isn't to copy the iPhone in most cases ? They are just comparing to a known good usability source and saying how to improve their own.

I've wasted 10 minutes reading through it and it's not the smoking gun people claim. Have you even read some of these ?

How is it copying the iPhone in this case :

View attachment 352009

So the problem is multiple items with the same icon can be used, they notice it might cause user confusion, something Apple did not permit on the iPhone. The solution is ... don't allow it. And that's what you call "smoking gun evidence of copying the iPhone" ?

:rolleyes:

Pray tell, what other solution is there ? Palette swap the icons that are the same or something like the good old of days of NES, lazy graphic designers and palette swapped monsters ?



Yeah, a bunch I read was "fix the spacing, fix the font sizing" but none was "let's just scrap this entire UI design and use the one for the iPhone".

Of course, now a few media outlets will call this "damning evidence" without even having gone through it, a bunch of people here, mostly "Apple can do no wrong!" will claim it is a bible of Samsung's copying without having read it either.

Then us people that actually read it will be called Samsung Fanboys.
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congratulations on picking one page out to suit your argument.

They have completely mugged off Apple and its for all to see in this document.
 
I don't see how she could pick up a samsung phone and think it was a iphone. I can tell the difference in an instant.
 
Another wow for all the people still in denial.

The document is full of statements saying "the iPhone does x, y, z" with a solution of "do x, y, z". It is a thorough review of everything the iPhone does better and then blatantly stating to replicate and copy the exact same functionality.

Apple spent a massive amount of time, resources and money perfecting the user interface. Samsung had one person spend a day with an iPhone and then document all the stuff to copy. How anyone can defend that is beyond me.

I'm aware this kind of practice is widespread but I can't believe going to this extreme and focussed on a single device from a competitor is the norm.

Again, it doesn't mean Samsung are guilty and should lose the case but lets be honest - they blatantly copied Apple.
 
MonkeySee.... said:
Phew, as long as thy are only trying to copy every feature of the iPhone and not only copying the design.

*over exaggerated eye roll*

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congratulations on picking one page out to suit your argument.

They have completely mugged off Apple and its for all to see in this document.
Click to expand...

There are several pages which support the argument. Have you even read it. In totality?

Further - Apple has "completely mugged off" other companies and solutions when creating iOS if we follow your logic. But I guess they get a free pass here, right?
 
nanotlj said:
Those design and patent "experts" and "lawyers" on this forum now have been slapped hard on their face by this amazing 131 page "revolutionary" samsung internal documents. LOL. Samsung has made the history.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/102322739/Samsung-Comparison-Report
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If you read the document, it's not about copying. It's about using a comparison with another phone as a jumping off point for improvements. No doubt Apple does the same thing.

For example, here's a section on the camera:

s1_v_iphone1.png

It points out that the iPhone has an effect that lets the user know the photo has been taken.

Samsung's recommendation does not say "Oh boy let's copy Apple's shutter animation". And sure enough, they did not do so.

The recommendation was to: "clearly give feedback to the user that saving is completed after taking a photo", which they now do by displaying a tiny preview of it in a corner.

As far I've seen so far, all are like that: pretty generic comments that certain S1 sections seem complicated in comparision, and need to be fixed or given more of a "fun factor".
 
Ok - so if I tell you that Company X makes a pizza in 7 steps and that we are currently making a pizza but it's taking 12 steps. Clearly we're wasting time and resources - we should get that down as low as we can - 7 is clearly possible.

Is that copying? I guess you can say it is to a point. But I see process improvement differently.

Further - process improvements isn't what this case is about anyway. In my opinion.


babyj said:
Another wow for all the people still in denial.

The document is full of statements saying "the iPhone does x, y, z" with a solution of "do x, y, z". It is a thorough review of everything the iPhone does better and then blatantly stating to replicate and copy the exact same functionality.

Apple spent a massive amount of time, resources and money perfecting the user interface. Samsung had one person spend a day with an iPhone and then document all the stuff to copy. How anyone can defend that is beyond me.

I'm aware this kind of practice is widespread but I can't believe going to this extreme and focussed on a single device from a competitor is the norm.

Again, it doesn't mean Samsung are guilty and should lose the case but lets be honest - they blatantly copied Apple.
Click to expand...
 
samcraig said:
There are several pages which support the argument. Have you even read it. In totality?

Further - Apple has "completely mugged off" other companies and solutions when creating iOS if we follow your logic. But I guess they get a free pass here, right?
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The difference for me with Apple is that they looked at the entire mobile phone market, taking some good ideas and then adding lots of their own. Spending a lot of time in r&d in the process to get things right.

They didn't just go out and copy a single device the way Samsung did. If Samsung had gone about it the way Apple did there wouldn't be a problem and there wouldn't be a court case.
 
MonkeySee.... said:
Phew, as long as thy are only trying to copy every feature of the iPhone and not only copying the design.

*over exaggerated eye roll*

----------



congratulations on picking one page out to suit your argument.

They have completely mugged off Apple and its for all to see in this document.
Click to expand...

I agree with you. Im fairly confident Samsung is going to lose. Not because of some blatant copying (which some ppl seem to think is necessary for them to lose) but because of tidbits like this doc.

The jury is not going to think like a software developer does, like kdarling seems to think they will, nor are they going to over analyze this doc and think "oh there really is no other way to do this"

As much as it'll hurt some ppl here, I'm fairly confident Samsung will lose this case. Tbh an outcome like that sucks because of the implications of such a decision, but it's clear as day here that they were heavily "inspired" by the iPhone even though some don't want to admit that.

A question for ppl in the know. was the Europe case based on the same argument as this one? And was this document presented there? (if I'm completely mixing up cases, i apologize in advance)
 
babyj said:
Another wow for all the people still in denial.

Again, it doesn't mean Samsung are guilty and should lose the case but lets be honest - they blatantly copied Apple.
Click to expand...

Read the document. We've pointed out several points that show it's not what you think it is.
 
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