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To all those who passionately claim that software patents are useless, why don't you go develop a groundbreaking application, then *don't* patent it, and try to make a living out of it? Go ahead, I dare you. Oh wait... you're here picking fights anonymously. And if the EU doesn't, in fact, have a software patent system (I admit I don't know if this is fact), can you tell me where most of the successful profitable developers are from (a list of developers from the USA, and ones from the EU would prove your point)?

When Apple created the Lisa and Mac, software patents were pretty much unheard of in the US. All they had was copyright for the code and trademarks for the design.

Guess what? They STILL CREATED THEIR SOFTWARE. And this is still true today:

There are hundreds of thousands of smartphone apps... and yet I betcha that only a very tiny handful (if any) have applied for a software patent.

So the demonstrable fact is, the lack of software patents wouldn't stop (and never has) anyone from creating new applications.

Heck, I'd say the opposite was actually more likely: that a badly given software patent would stop others from rightfully creating new applications. E.g. universal search. Give me a break. That patent is for exactly what any modern programmer would use: search objects for various types of storage.
 
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I admit that the first galaxy S looks like the iPhone 3G/3GS
but look at the Galaxy S3 now...... it looks NO WHERE NEAR an iPhone.

Just wished Samsung was like this in the beginning, so we wouldn't have all these patent law crap!
 
We'll take John Carmack as an example. In case you don't know who he is, he's a guy who lives and breathes binary. Can literally write better code than 99% of the rest of the world ever could while being half drunk and 3/4ths of the way asleep. He probably speaks it like a second language.

The Khronos Group refers to him as "sir", even Bill Gates pees his pants a little around him. People actually line up in droves to listen to the guy talk for two hours about stuff they're not going to understand.

He is the Ubergeek. The grand poobah of realtime 3D. And he's never patented a single bit of his code. Actually hates the idea of software patents in general. He even open sources his game engines after 10 years or so.

Yet the bastard drives a Ferrari. That's a car that costs a whole bunch. So I doubt he's hurting for money much.

Fair enough. So you gave one example of someone successful who doesn't have a single patent (you would agree that's rare). More often than not, the leaders in the developer world *do* hold patents. Therefore, patents must have an intrinsic value.

I don't disagree with you that there needs to be change in the system. But gutting it all would be a terrible mistake.
 
It's that go-getter, can do attitude you've got that makes me respect you. Keep on keeping on, son!

Nice try in changing the subject. You still haven't told me how YOU not accepting REALITY will change anything. Try answering my question this time since you're such a "Go-Getter".
 
When Apple created the Lisa and Mac, software patents were pretty much unheard of in the US. All they had was copyright for the code and trademarks for the design.

Guess what? They STILL CREATED THEIR SOFTWARE. And this is still true today:

There are hundreds of thousands of smartphone apps... and yet I betcha that only a very tiny handful (if any) have applied for a software patent.

So the demonstrable fact is, the lack of software patents wouldn't stop (and never has) anyone from creating new applications.

"Never"? That's a bold statement. How do you prove a negative?
 
Nice try in changing the subject. You still haven't told me how YOU not accepting REALITY will change anything. Try answering my question this time since you're such a "Go-Getter".

I'm not arguing that the damn sky is green here, man. Not raging against the laws of physics upon which the basic foundations of the universe thusly sit.

What I'm doing is disagreeing with a bunch of stupid patents enabled by a system that's done more harm than good. Even if I can't "make a change", I can gripe about it and armchair lawyer til my heart is content. Which is what we all do here.

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Fair enough. So you gave one example of someone successful who doesn't have a single patent (you would agree that's rare). More often than not, the leaders in the developer world *do* hold patents. Therefore, patents must have an intrinsic value.

I don't disagree with you that there needs to be change in the system. But gutting it all would be a terrible mistake.

Yeah, I'll agree that dismantling it completely might not be the best answer here. But it does need to change. It needs to focus more on true innovation, rather than "hey, I did this neat thing by putting these three standard commands together to perform an action, and now I want a patent for it".

The biggest problem with the patent system as it is now is that the office isn't doing it's due diligence, and awarding patents for new inventions and innovations that aren't really all that new or innovative.
 
When Apple created the Lisa and Mac, software patents were pretty much unheard of in the US. All they had was copyright for the code and trademarks for the design.

Guess what? They STILL CREATED THEIR SOFTWARE. And this is still true today:

There are hundreds of thousands of smartphone apps... and yet I betcha that only a very tiny handful (if any) have applied for a software patent.

So the demonstrable fact is, the lack of software patents wouldn't stop (and never has) anyone from creating new applications.

Heck, I'd say the opposite was actually more likely: that a badly given software patent would stop others from rightfully creating new applications. E.g. universal search. Give me a break. That patent is for exactly what any modern programmer would use: search objects for various types of storage.
Yes, all they had was copyright and so when Bill Gates basically stole the Macintosh System and used it for "Windows", Apple lost their case in court and almost went bankrupt trying to prove their case. The fact that they lost
in court would be a reason for many to believe something more is needed, such as "Software Patents". Yes, I know Steve Jobs got a lot of the ideas for Mac OS from Xerox parc. However, Apple was the first to bring all the elements together into one package for the first Macintosh. Copyright didn't help them at all in protecting their IP from Microsoft.
 
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More often than not, the leaders in the developer world *do* hold patents. Therefore, patents must have an intrinsic value.

No one argues that software patents can't be used to make money.

They're saying that they shouldn't be allowed in the first place. Developers daily re-invent the same solution that someone else has. It's the nature of the art of writing software. Patenting the methods is like patenting music chords.

I don't disagree with you that there needs to be change in the system. But gutting it all would be a terrible mistake.

There's a push for a middle ground which might be palatable. One idea is that software patents should only last two years. That's enough to make some money, but not long enough to deny users the benefit of a more universal application of the method in question.

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Yes, I know Steve Jobs lifted a lot of the ideas for Mac OS from Xerox parc. However, Apple was the first to bring all the elements together into one package for the first Macintosh. Copyright didn't help them at all in protecting their IP from Microsoft.

The problem with that argument is that you're basing your scenario with Apple being first at everything. They were not.

If everyone had been filing software patents in the 60s and 70s, Apple would not have been able to do their GUI in the first place!

It's the sheer fact that we all were sharing everything we learned, that gave such a speedy rise to the entire home and office personal computer industry.

Back then, you see, everything was new. We could've patented voice control, icon arrangements, mouse gestures, you name it. Thank goodness that didn't happen. Ideas were (and are) a dime a dozen. Everyone was free to create and yet we were protected by copyright so that our actual hard work... the code... could not be stolen outright.

Likewise, touch is new to many people... apparently including patent examiners. Some of the patents they've granted are obvious to those of us who have been doing touch for decades. It's all relative to when you learned.
 
...Yes, I know Steve Jobs lifted a lot of the ideas for Mac OS from Xerox parc.

I think this is the biggest point of contention right here. Apple rarely ever invents. They improve. Sometimes greatly. People are okay with that, because they like what Apple provides.

Anyone else tries to use or build off the improvements Apple has made to someone elses design, and suddenly the act is treated as a cardinal sin. How dare they mooch off of Apple's good work!

It's rather two faced and hypocritical if you ask me. Why is Apple treated as the place where the buck suddenly stops?

However, Apple was the first to bring all the elements together into one package for the first Macintosh.

Eh, it's arguable that the first rev of the Mac/Lisa OS was vastly different than Parc OS. There were great improvements, but Apple didn't bring together a bunch of different ideas from a bunch of different companies into one cohesive whole. They improved upon the ideas presented mostly from one source.
 
I'm not arguing that the damn sky is green here, man. Not raging against the laws of physics upon which the basic foundations of the universe thusly sit.

What I'm doing is disagreeing with a bunch of stupid patents enabled by a system that's done more harm than good. Even if I can't "make a change", I can gripe about it and armchair lawyer til my heart is content. Which is what we all do here.

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Yes, you can gripe all you want. It won't make any difference, but you can do it to your hearts content.
 
I think this is the biggest point of contention right here. Apple rarely ever invents. They improve. Sometimes greatly. People are okay with that, because they like what Apple provides.

Anyone else tries to use or build off the improvements Apple has made to someone elses design, and suddenly the act is treated as a cardinal sin. How dare they mooch off of Apple's good work!

It's rather two faced and hypocritical if you ask me. Why is Apple treated as the place where the buck suddenly stops?



Eh, it's arguable that the first rev of the Mac/Lisa OS was vastly different than Parc OS. There were great improvements, but Apple didn't bring together a bunch of different ideas from a bunch of different companies into one cohesive whole. They improved upon the ideas presented mostly from one source.

Apple (Via Steve Jobs) believes rightly or wrongly that they should be able to protect whatever software patents they have established. This is Reality. Whether you are for or against, is not going to make any difference. The courts will decide this and upon the final verdict (after any appeals) The courts decision will be "The way it is". You can scream and yell to your hearts content, but Reality will not go away.
 
I really wish you would drop this "you can't win because hurrr reality" line of arguing. It adds nothing to the conversation at hand (which is what we're trying to have here...a conversation), and is only good as a blanket statement to give yourself a default win over anything I say.

It's a slightly more literate version of "yeah? well...YOU'RE DUMB SO SHUT UP ALRITE".
 
Welllp, guess it's decided. Might as well shut down the forum, everyone! It's useless to gripe about things we can't directly change because it's dumb or something!

Yes, I think it's pretty dumb. It's not dumb to express your opinion, but it is dumb to think that reality should follow your opinion. I enjoy giving my opinion, but I know it's only my opinion and opinions quickly change as new facts come into play. If Apple loses this case, (though I believe they should win) It will not faze me at all. Reality always trumps opinion.
 
I think this is the biggest point of contention right here. Apple rarely ever invents. They improve. Sometimes greatly. People are okay with that, because they like what Apple provides.

Anyone else tries to use or build off the improvements Apple has made to someone elses design, and suddenly the act is treated as a cardinal sin. How dare they mooch off of Apple's good work!

I disagree with this statement. I think WebOS built off iOS and did a better job in many ways, but I don't think most people would call it an iOS ripoff.

What Samsung did is wholly different, in my opinion. They took the iPhone and looked at every aspect of it and said, "Make our product work almost exactly like this."

EDIT: I just want to point out that I am in no way talking about the icons. Samsung clearly looked to Apple for their icon designs but I think they are generic enough that I don't think they should have anything enforceable about them.
 
Yes, I think it's pretty dumb. It's not dumb to express your opinion, but it is dumb to think that reality should follow your opinion. I enjoy giving my opinion, but I know it's only my opinion and opinions quickly change as new facts come into play. If Apple loses this case, (though I believe they should win) It will not faze me at all. Reality always trumps opinion.

Why have opinions at all then?
 
I disagree with this statement. I think WebOS built off iOS and did a better job in many ways, but I don't think most people would call it an iOS ripoff.

What Samsung did is wholly different, in my opinion. They took the iPhone and looked at every aspect of it and said, "Make our product work almost exactly like this."

If I were to split this case down to the bare basics, it'd go something like this...

Apple is guilty of splitting hairs over every small thing they can possibly get away with. It's one thing to protect your IP. Another thing entirely to do what Apple is doing right now.

On the other hand, Samsung is guilty of...well...I don't want to say copying, exactly. There are quite a few differences between default iOS and their greatly inspired by iOS Touchwiz interface.

...but they weren't really trying to differentiate themselves all that much, either.

Ultimately, I can't root for either company here. Thing is, Samsung winning won't make much of a difference. They'd continue selling their Galaxy phones and tablets much as they are now. A win wouldn't allow them to become even more brazen with their aping, because Apple could then sue them over what would be a crystal clear case of infringement/trademark violation. Life would go on, much as it has these past couple of years.

But if Apple were to win, it'd give them the tools and the means to go after people that are honestly trying build upon and improve Apple's innovations and the smartphone scene in general. Even though I doubt it'd go this far, it could potentially lead to Apple having a lockdown on everything good we currently take for granted in our smartphones.

And if Apple has proven one thing to me these last few years, it's that they're a litigious bunch, willing to play the system and sue over practically anything they can possibly get away with.
 
Why have opinions at all then?

Under the right circumstances, opinions can become reality. We need wisdom and perseverance to know when this is the case. It usually is not the case. Our opinions are the unique underlying fabric of our individual nature and for that reason are valuable to us. Whether they are valuable to the universe is up for debate.
 
Respectfully, you don't have any idea what you're talking about.

Here are the U.S. Government's criteria for evaluating trademark violation allegations:

1. Strength of the mark
2. Proximity of the goods
3. Similarity of the marks
4. Evidence of actual confusion
5. Marketing channels used
6. Type of goods and the degree of care likely to be exercised by the purchaser
7. Defendant's intent in selecting the mark
8. Likelihood of expansion of the product lines

By your standard, one could take the Apple logo and flip it so the "bite" is on the other side, slap it on a computer, call it "Mapple" and operate freely. I mean, it's not identical, right?

oooo, oooo
thet can also distort it, make it fatter, darken the shade a little, and rotate it a few degrees to make the angle different. They will make it original... not a copy there.
 
Hey, you updated your signature for me. That's...

...the greatest honor anyone has ever bestowed upon me. Thanks, man.:tears of joy:

Now please, lets drop the metaphysics and get back to the topic at hand. My opinion on something is my opinion on something. It's the way I feel about something, regardless of it's impact upon the world at large. If I think this something is unfair or wrong, I'll voice my opinion about it. I'm making a statement regarding the topic, and discussing that statement with other people.

Making a statement about the necessity of the software patent system on a forum discussing software patents is perfectly valid.
 
I really respect Apple for doing this. it's simply about about protecting someone else's hard work, their art, their late nights away from their families designing and building products that have proven over and over to be genuine and strong, making a business as honest as any that other companies look up to. It's also why they do everything to protect music and other media on iTunes, not just for money, but for the integrity of the music business and entertainment business in general. Samsung and all the other theives are just tech leeches. Jutice may or may not ultimately not be served, but doing everything in their power to protect their work is beyond the dollar, it's in Apples blood.
 
If everyone had been filing software patents in the 60s and 70s, Apple would not have been able to do their GUI in the first place!

Do you understand how a patent works? Apple would be able to do their GUI still, just pay some money to Xerox. And then Microsoft would have paid 10 times that money to Apple.
 
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