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How is that different with Apple?

Was the iPhone the first phone with capacitative screen? No
Was it the first phone with an app store? No
Was it the first phone with apps? No
Was it the first phone capable of full HTML browsing? No

That's right.

However.

iPhone was the first phone with a multitouch capacitive screen. Nobody really cares about that. What they do care about is that the iPhone was the first phone with a multi-touch UI. Not only was it first, it was actually pretty good. Hence why every manufacturer quickly and poorly attempted to follow that.

This IS the modern smartphone; entirely unlike the prior generations of smartphones. If you don't see this as a new product segment, you really don't understand the history of mobile computing.

iPhone was the first phone which provided a desktop-class OS foundation for application development, made the SDK available for the general public, and also provided the distribution network. Each of those things themselves isn't new, it's the combination of the three that was new, and therefore shifted the market.
 
'Good artists copy, great artists steal.'

Steve Jobs said it and I agree everyone copies in someway when creating something, but Samsung's tactics around this is pathetic. I understand taking ideas and shaping them to create something new a unique.

Samsung is just flooding the market with crappy nock off products, when they get sued they act big bully and drag out the action to try and make the suing company cave. They win. It's pathetic.

If I ever did buy a android phone, it would not be a samsung.

:apple:
 
Ah, the "Apple copied Xerox" myth. Credibility gone.

How could anyone in any way not believe Apple copied Xerox?

They visited the PARC campus in exchange for providing Xerox with Apple stock, they were given full access to the Xero Alto, complete with GUI featuring a desktop metaphor, mouse and PC form factor and they then released the Lisa and the Macintosh in the following years which included all these things.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZOF-j6Nxm04

The only thing Steve Jobs regretted about copying the Xerox Alto was that he missed copying two other main features (which were later integrated into NeXT) which were full networking capabilities and object oriented programming.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vpMeFh37mCE
What are you even talking about? :rolleyes:
 
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IIRC, Xerox was doing nothing (or little to nothing) with what was at PARC.

It's not really relevant to an argument as to whether Apple copied Xerox though. No, Xerox wasn't doing anything with the technology and did not know how to bring it to market - but the fact is that Apple blatantly copied PARC (and I don't use the word "stole" because Xerox were compensated).

They did this because they feared that it would destroy the photocopy industry.

Actually it wasn't. Most of their photocopy patents had expired by that point and they were getting destroyed by the cheaper and more reliable Japanese machines - they just did't quite know how to commercialise what the PARC scientists had come up with.

In the video I linked to above, the PARC scientist (and later Apple employee) talks about how he believed that Xerox management envisaged a partnership with Apple - with Apple producing the hardware and implementing Xerox software concepts - obviously this did not happen.

----------

when they get sued they act big bully and drag out the action to try and make the suing company cave. They win. It's pathetic.

Every corporation that gets sued which has the necessary resources drags court cases out. Every single one.

----------

JB wasn't released until 2012 with Project Butter. Only then Android reached performance parity with iOS. Even with Project Butter, I question Android's performance at the time.

You are correct, but the thing you neglect to mention is that iOS has not yet reached feature parity with Android - the process of Android being optimised was faster than iOS is evolving features - that's a problem.
 
Thats just not true. All those phones have nothing to do with the iPhone. No multi-touch interface which is the CORE of the system, no swipe to scroll, pinch to zome, slide to unlock, I mean the whole funcionality behind how you actually operate the device.

These have nothing to do with the design patents.

Those samsung phones had nothing of that. No full internet browser experiance, no maps, not actually useful mail client, nothing.

Don't know about Samsung, but I sure had all these and loads more (like downloadable apps etc.) on my phones ever since 2004 and the Nokia Communicator 9500.
 
"The Exynos 5410 saw limited use, appearing in some international versions of the Galaxy S 4 and nothing else. Part of the problem with the design was a broken implementation of the CCI-400 coherent bus interface that connect the two CPU islands to the rest of the SoC. In the case of the 5410, the bus was functional but coherency was broken and manually disabled on the Galaxy S 4. The implications are serious from a power consumption (and performance) standpoint. With all caches being flushed out to main memory upon a switch between CPU islands. Neither ARM nor Samsung LSI will talk about the bug publicly, and Samsung didn't fess up to the problem at first either - leaving end users to discover it on their own. " -Anandtech

Samsung uses off the shelf parts (ARM A15), which is too power hungry so they stick more off the shelf parts onto it (ARM A7) to compensate.

By comparison Apple custom designs their cores. That's how you get the impressive tablet performing A7 chip working in a smartphone.

And yet you are talking about an implementation problem, not a conceptual problem?

----------

Thats just not true. All those phones have nothing to do with the iPhone. No multi-touch interface which is the CORE of the system, no swipe to scroll, pinch to zome, slide to unlock, I mean the whole funcionality behind how you actually operate the device.

Apple did not invent "slide to unlock". They did not implement it first. They did not even patent it first. The fact they even got a patent on this demonstrates how broken the system is.

Demo: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tj-KS2kfIr0#t=238

Details:
http://www.dailytech.com/Analysis+N...oUnlock+3+Years+Before+Apple/article24046.htm

http://www.androidcentral.com/apple...en-though-it-existed-2-years-they-invented-it
 
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Here's an idea

I know that a lot of you will start jumping up and down and defending Samsung on how great they are and how Apple has stolen ideas and so on. lets kick off by saying that Apple only infringed slightly whereas Samsung did so on an epic scale and not just with Apple.
Next if Samsung's tactics of copy copy copy some more then draw out litigation and finally settle then the way to solve that is to not settle and end up with import ban.
The more Samsung devices that are banned in one or more countries then the more likely that at some point Samsung will FINALLY start to innovate themselves and not just copy other companies work
I mean I had a Samsung phone and it was slow, not well built and very shoddy. I also have a Samsung laptop and it is slow, not well built either and thanks to Windows 8 very buggy etc
so since I bought a Macbook Pro last month things have been better by far.
So that for me proves that even thought Samsung copies that there is no substitute for the original. I mean you can buy a print of the Mona Lisa but there is nothing like the original is there.

one of you on here said that now Samsung will not need to copy so much as they are a real competitor for firms such as Apple. ERR NO!!!! they are not!!
look what happened when they built their own smart watch the galaxy Gear. as far as I am aware they did not copy that and the sales are pathetic, customers returned it in droves and phone shops were trying to give it away with new phone contracts. Even then they couldn't shift many.
So perhaps if enough firms got together and sued Samsung and refused to settle for anything less than sales bans of Samsung devices in any way then that will start to hurt Samsung and then perhaps we may one day see the end of these litigation cases and Samsung will finally start to innovate and provide real competition not blind stealing
 
\
Is that why Motorola was hit with a fine? Motorola carried out an injunction against Apple despite Apple showing a willingness to pay. A major win? Hardly, considering Motorola/Samsung wanted Apple's devices banned by abusing their SEPs. There's a difference between paying a fair rate and not wanting to pay at all.

All I'm going to add to this discussion is that even though Apple won more money in this judgement - they lost something very important. They originally wanted ~$40 per device - past devices and all future ones going forward. That's not happening.
 
Fingerworks was keyboard that 2006 video shows it in a screen.

My comment remains the same, how can you say samsung copied iphone when others already did it before?

The same goes up for almost all the patents used against samsung.
Because Apple purchased "the others". That's how. Stop thinking of Apple as a person and start thinking in terms of corporations. They own the IP even if they didn't invent it which in the case of patent purchases is the same as them inventing it.

If Samsung was planning on using pinch to zoom in their phones 5 years from 2005, why didn't they acquire Fingerworks? Nobody was even bidding on the company when Apple grabbed it for quite cheap btw.
 
iPhone was the first phone which provided a desktop-class OS foundation for application development, made the SDK available for the general public, and also provided the distribution network. Each of those things themselves isn't new, it's the combination of the three that was new, and therefore shifted the market.


No, it wasn't. Symbian had had that for years when the iPhone was released. Sure, coding for Symbian was quite painful, but again, what you wrote was nothing new.
 
That's right.

However.

iPhone was the first phone with a multitouch capacitive screen. Nobody really cares about that. What they do care about is that the iPhone was the first phone with a multi-touch UI. Not only was it first, it was actually pretty good. Hence why every manufacturer quickly and poorly attempted to follow that.

This IS the modern smartphone; entirely unlike the prior generations of smartphones. If you don't see this as a new product segment, you really don't understand the history of mobile computing.

iPhone was the first phone which provided a desktop-class OS foundation for application development, made the SDK available for the general public, and also provided the distribution network. Each of those things themselves isn't new, it's the combination of the three that was new, and therefore shifted the market.

Symbian, Microsoft and even Android had public SDK's before
 
It was the only rate they offered. It may or may not have been $12, but 2.25% is a high rate nonetheless.

Says who? Again, Qualcomm charges over 3% of device cost. (*)

In any case, as various judges have noted, this is the way that negotiations work. One side starts high, the other side starts low, and they work towards a happy medium.

Refusing to negotiate at all is grounds for an injunction in any country. Always has been, still is.

So it boils down to whether or not a particular judge or commission thought that Apple was willing. E.g The ITC said no. The EUC said yes. (Apple had only replied once to Motorola and refused to budge afterwards. To a SEP holder, that's not willingness. It's reverse FRAND holdup.)

As for requesting cross licensing, that's expressly permitted in the ETSI FRAND rules (which I've never see any reporter mention reading):

ETSI_FRAND_Rules.png

Apple already pays Qualcomm, and Qualcomm pays Motorola. What Motorola is doing is double dipping. Most likely how Apple is getting the $12 figure.

Apple got the $12 figure by applying 2.25% to their full wholesale price, which is not necessarily the case. But it sounds great as a publicity bite.

They came up with their alternative of $1 by claiming that some other companies only pay that much. This could be true, but the evidence is sealed. If they were right, then they should've had no problem letting the judge set the rate. So it's suspicious that they refused.

Is that why Motorola was hit with a fine? Motorola carried out an injunction against Apple despite Apple showing a willingness to pay.

The EUC didn't fine anyone. After doing nothing for a year, during which time German courts allowed injunction requests on SEPs... which to say the least, gives mixed signals... the EUC finally gave out guidance that it would henceforth be considered an abuse to request one IF the licensee was willing to negotiate.

(*) Back to whether a rate is high or not, these are the starting negotiation rates for LTE, which are basically the same as for 3G. Remember, it's not the quantity of patents, but the quality.

etsi_royalty_rates.png
 
Simple - vote with your wallet

How the hell are Samsung being allowed to get away with this? Something needs to be done to stop their incessant infringement of other companies valuable, innovative patents.

Simple way to make sure Samsung discontinues being an immoral thief. Avoid all Samsung products like the plague until they change their strategy. Boycott Samsung. I'm starting with myself. No Samsung fridges, no Samsung TV, hell no Samsung phones. There are alternatives ... LG, Huawei, Apple, Motorola, HTC etc.
 
Because Apple purchased "the others". That's how. Stop thinking of Apple as a person and start thinking in terms of corporations. They own the IP even if they didn't invent it which in the case of patent purchases is the same as them inventing it.

If Samsung was planning on using pinch to zoom in their phones 5 years from 2005, why didn't they acquire Fingerworks? Nobody was even bidding on the company when Apple grabbed it for quite cheap btw.


Apple didnt get the pinch to zoom panteng ig got rejected a while ago .

Again i repeat : how can you patent and sue now for such a gesture that was thought up in the 80's? Its an absurd abberation of the system that appke is happily abusing .

Pinch to zoom idea is the invention not pinch to zoom idea on smartphone or capacative screen .

The code to do such gesture is invention not ...
 
Says who? Again, Qualcomm charges over 3% of device cost. (*)

In any case, as various judges have noted, this is the way that negotiations work. One side starts high, the other side starts low, and they work towards a happy medium.

Apple already pays Qualcomm. Why does Apple have to pay twice?

Refusing to negotiate at all is grounds for an injunction in any country. Always has been, still is.

So it boils down to whether or not a particular judge or commission thought that Apple was willing. E.g The ITC said no. The EUC said yes. (Apple had only replied once to Motorola and refused to budge afterwards. To a SEP holder, that's not willingness. It's reverse FRAND holdup.)

As for requesting cross licensing, that's expressly permitted in the ETSI FRAND rules (which I've never see any reporter mention reading):

To the EUC, Apple was willing and the injunction was thrown out. It was up to Motorola to prove that their SEPs rates were under FRAND terms. It's now up to the German courts to decide the rate.


Apple got the $12 figure by applying 2.25% to their full wholesale price, which is not necessarily the case. But it sounds great as a publicity bite.

They came up with their alternative of $1 by claiming that some other companies only pay that much. This could be true, but the evidence is sealed. If they were right, then they should've had no problem letting the judge set the rate. So it's suspicious that they refused.

Motorola didn't challenge this $12 rate. In any case, Apple has made a case that they already pay Qualcomm.

The EUC didn't fine anyone. After doing nothing for a year, during which time German courts allowed injunction requests on SEPs... which to say the least, gives mixed signals... the EUC finally gave out guidance that it would henceforth be considered an abuse to request one IF the licensee was willing to negotiate.

(*) Back to whether a rate is high or not, these are the starting negotiation rates for LTE, which are basically the same as for 3G. Remember, it's not the quantity of patents, but the quality.

Just because Motorola wasn't fined doesn't mean they weren't found guilty abusing their SEPs.

____

You are correct, but the thing you neglect to mention is that iOS has not yet reached feature parity with Android - the process of Android being optimised was faster than iOS is evolving features - that's a problem.

One could say smartphones today haven't matched the feature set of WinMo. Android does have a lot of functionality, but that doesn't mean its UX is any good.

And yet you are talking about an implementation problem, not a conceptual problem?

Samsung can't implement off the shelf cores from ARM? Apple is in another league when it comes to SoC design. There's a reason why Samsung still relies on Qualcomm's Snapdragon.
 
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Apple didnt get the pinch to zoom panteng ig got rejected a while ago .

Again i repeat : how can you patent and sue now for such a gesture that was thought up in the 80's? Its an absurd abberation of the system that appke is happily abusing .

Pinch to zoom idea is the invention not pinch to zoom idea on smartphone or capacative screen .

The code to do such gesture is invention not ...

Pinch to zoom as an idea is not patentable, obviously. You can only patent implementations of the idea.

Same as blur effect. You cannot patent the blur effect on a picture. But you can patent your own implementation of the blur effect, like Adobe and force other image editing apps to go around your patent to apply the blur.

And there have been patents on agriculture methods that have been done for hundreds of years yet some company can patent them today like it's a new thing.
 
Apple already pays Qualcomm. Why does Apple have to pay twice?

If that payment to Qualcomm doesn't include Motorola patents they have to pay to both of them,, if there is patent exhaustion they have to pay once

Android does have a lot of functionality, but that doesn't mean its UX is any good.


Say who?

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Because Apple purchased "the others". That's how. Stop thinking of Apple as a person and start thinking in terms of corporations. They own the IP even if they didn't invent it which in the case of patent purchases is the same as them inventing it.

If Samsung was planning on using pinch to zoom in their phones 5 years from 2005, why didn't they acquire Fingerworks? Nobody was even bidding on the company when Apple grabbed it for quite cheap btw.

Fingerwork multi touch patents are not for smartphones
 
Because Apple purchased "the others". That's how. Stop thinking of Apple as a person and start thinking in terms of corporations. They own the IP even if they didn't invent it which in the case of patent purchases is the same as them inventing it.

If Samsung was planning on using pinch to zoom in their phones 5 years from 2005, why didn't they acquire Fingerworks? Nobody was even bidding on the company when Apple grabbed it for quite cheap btw.

Maybe because Fingerworks software wasn't rocket science for Samsung UI developers. You buy a software company if you need the know-how of their software developers or their software libraries. If Samsung executives felt they could implement multi-finger gestures pretty easily, you don't need to buy an entire company to acquire know-how.

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Patents = monopoly tactic.

No small company can protect itself by applying for patents.

Big companies are fast enough to respond to the market with even more innovation each time some competitor replicates its goal. THIS is competition, not narrowing oportunities.
 
Apple already pays Qualcomm. Why does Apple have to pay twice?

Obviously they should not have to, but there's a couple of details that most people aren't aware of:

1) Qualcomm does not sublicense Moto IP to its users. Instead, Motorola has an agreement to not sue Qualcomm customers... EXCEPT in the so-called War Clause, which states that if a customer sues Motorola, all bets are off. The legality of this is still in question, I think, but if it is legal, Apple is no longer protected.

2) The ITC noted that Apple's claim of protection in the US due to patent exhaustion, ONLY EXISTS IF you buy the parts in the USA. However, most of Apple's purchases are made outside in order to avoid paying US taxes. In other words, if Apple doesn't pay US taxes on a part, they do not earn US specific protections.

To the EUC, Apple was willing and the injunction was thrown out. It was up to Motorola to prove that their SEPs rates were under FRAND terms. It's now up to the German courts to decide the rate.

Yep, and German courts favor the license holders. They're the ones who said that injunctions were always okay even with SEPs.

Basically, what we have here is a typical power struggle between new EU officials, and old national courts. It'll be interesting to see what happens.

Just because Motorola wasn't fined doesn't mean they weren't found guilty abusing their SEPs.

It wasn't a court, so there's no guilt involved. Moreover, the idea that injunctions is abusive, was not clearly set in the law. Therefore nobody broke any existing laws. Just opinions.

As the EUC noted, "The Commission decided not to impose a fine on Motorola in view of the fact that there is no case-law by the European Union Courts dealing with the legality under Article 102 TFEU of SEP-based injunctions and that national courts have so far reached diverging conclusions on this question."

The same goes for the US. In both situations, the prohibition against asking for injunctions was a NEW thing, taking place AFTER the requests were filed. Obviously if it was illegal, the filing could never have taken place. It's retroactive enforcement. It's like getting a ticket when the speed limit changed a week after you drove through. And it likely would not have come up at all if Apple wasn't involved.

All that said, I personally agree that injunctions should not be allowed right away, but only after a time limit has passed and a licensee still refuses to pay an arbitrated rate.
 
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I know that a lot of you will start jumping up and down and defending Samsung on how great they are and how Apple has stolen ideas and so on. lets kick off by saying that Apple only infringed slightly whereas Samsung did so on an epic scale and not just with Apple.
Next if Samsung's tactics of copy copy copy some more then draw out litigation and finally settle then the way to solve that is to not settle and end up with import ban.
The more Samsung devices that are banned in one or more countries then the more likely that at some point Samsung will FINALLY start to innovate themselves and not just copy other companies work
I mean I had a Samsung phone and it was slow, not well built and very shoddy. I also have a Samsung laptop and it is slow, not well built either and thanks to Windows 8 very buggy etc
so since I bought a Macbook Pro last month things have been better by far.
So that for me proves that even thought Samsung copies that there is no substitute for the original. I mean you can buy a print of the Mona Lisa but there is nothing like the original is there.

one of you on here said that now Samsung will not need to copy so much as they are a real competitor for firms such as Apple. ERR NO!!!! they are not!!
look what happened when they built their own smart watch the galaxy Gear. as far as I am aware they did not copy that and the sales are pathetic, customers returned it in droves and phone shops were trying to give it away with new phone contracts. Even then they couldn't shift many.
So perhaps if enough firms got together and sued Samsung and refused to settle for anything less than sales bans of Samsung devices in any way then that will start to hurt Samsung and then perhaps we may one day see the end of these litigation cases and Samsung will finally start to innovate and provide real competition not blind stealing

You're kidding me right? You have a one month old MacBook and that proves to you Samsung products are inferior?

The Samsung laptop you had probably ran Windows and was older. Windows laptops tend to degenerate quickly but NOT because of inferior hardware -- it's because the OS picks up bugs, spyware, malware, etc. Almost impossible to avoid on Windows.

As for the phones, I know people with iPhones whose battery died after 6 months. Also know people with Samsung phones that work great. What does that prove? Nothing. Both make very popular phones and with the mass production there's bound to be bad apples in each bunch. For the record I think Apple QC has suffered too from mass production. My iPhone 5 battery drains so quickly when I'm not even using it.
 
How could anyone in any way not believe Apple copied Xerox?

They visited the PARC campus in exchange for providing Xerox with Apple stock, they were given full access to the Xero Alto, complete with GUI featuring a desktop metaphor, mouse and PC form factor and they then released the Lisa and the Macintosh in the following years which included all these things.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZOF-j6Nxm04

The only thing Steve Jobs regretted about copying the Xerox Alto was that he missed copying two other main features (which were later integrated into NeXT) which were full networking capabilities and object oriented programming.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vpMeFh37mCE
What are you even talking about? :rolleyes:

Read some research:

http://appleinsider.com/articles/13...-inc-macintosh-innovator-duplicator-litigator

What are you even talking about? :rolleyes:
 
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