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Do the Apple fans in this thread really not think similar memos exist at Apple HQ?

No, I don't.

I think its highly likely that there exists a trove of internal Apple documents dating from 2002-2007, looking at various mobile phone models from Motorola, Nokia, Samsung, etc., discussing the various features, and basically concluding "this is why they suck - and here is how our phone is going to be much, much better."

I certainly don't think there exists an Apple document discussing, for example, the much-cited LG Prada, and saying "we've got to change this or that about the upcoming iPhone so we can compete."

Samsung will have the chance to make that claim as part of its discovery process. The fact that they haven't done so to date would tend to indicate that no such document exists.

Out-and-out copying of other company's products dimply isn't the way Apple does business.
 
What is winning for Apple?

Can someone answer me a simple question about this lawsuit between Apple and Samsung: What would Apple regard as a win?

Samsung being enjoined from making similar smartphones is not a reasonable outcome. Once something gets to trial, I do not believe Apple getting licensing fees even close to what Microsoft gets from Android makers is even a reasonable outcome.

For the record, I would like Apple to win as large a victory as possible, but I am more afraid of an Oracle vs Google Java lawsuit outcome.
 
no, i don't.

I think its highly likely that there exists a trove of internal apple documents dating from 2002-2007, looking at various mobile phone models from motorola, nokia, samsung, etc., discussing the various features, and basically concluding "this is why they suck - and here is how our phone is going to be much, much better."

+1
 
And yet Apple has stolen a ton from Android. Come off the high horse.

Most, if not all of Andriod's features are not protected? Apple filed for protections of their IP. If it is open and not protected it's free game, this is not the case with Apple's IP.

Not only did Apple apply for protections, but they sort of invented Android in a round about way. I don't understand why Fandroids don't get this, you know, the whole part about "STOLEN PRODUCT," which isn't necessarily inferring to the iPhone.

Apple had two teams working on a phone OS, and one did a Linux based OS and the other shrunk OSX. These things were not just argued on paper. They were working alpha software running on devices.

Hello, Schmidt ala Google was on the board, and knew about these projects. This is where the entire Apple Google war started... not just because Android mimicks the iPhone, but the entire concept of Android was an unused Apple project.

As for copying Features Google added to Android... um, please tell me when Google did anything original? Anything.
-Maps? Remember Map Quest? Yeah, it's a copy.
-Widgets? Um, while Apple didn't invent those either, they first appeared on the Mac.
-YouTube? Maybe, but they bought that, didn't invent it.
-Multi-tasking? Been around forever... and Apple didn't copy that either. Apple's multi-tasking on the iPhone is reminiscent of using cntrl-tab on the Mac to switch between apps, and even animates that way. Been around for over a decade. Android also sucks at Multitasking.
-Pretty much ever google product is a clone of someone else's. Every last one of them. The Google Goggles project will probably be their first attempt at originality with an unoriginal idea.

Hell, Google attempted to copy the apple tv with that stupid Nexus ball... and look at that fiasco.
Is Apple always original? No. No one is. But just because a concept isn't original, you can be original in the innovation of an idea and how it works, which Google is so not and apple so is.

I actually got an Android phone because I was trying to save money and needed a change after 3 iPhones (which I do miss). I can't seem to say there is anything about Android that I feel the iPhone really coppied. Notification center would be about the closest thing... and swiping down instead of left to right is hardly copying. In fact, didn't Google get smcaked for infringing on multi-touch patents? And everyone else?

There are certain ideas and implementations of things that are far from copying, and there are things that are blatantly ripping someone off.

In the case of Samsung, they blatantly ripped off the iPhone. IOS vs. Android... hard to say, because who knows how much of a killed Apple Project Google copied in the first place?
 
I can't believe what I'm reading in the comments...

Or rather, I can, because it's a predominantly Apple fan site.

There is nothing legally or morally wrong in analysing what your competitors are doing, and determining weaknesses in your own product. This is absolutely normal, and necessary for competitive business.

If you don't think that Apple do the same thing, then you are seriously deluded. The very fact that they have these lawsuits out there proves how much time they spend analysing their competitors products.

There is nothing in the few images that I've looked at that demonstrates Samsung were copying Apple. In fact, one of them - the icon design - specifically stated as a course of action, differentiating, not copying, the design.

The one thing you could point at as an instruction to copy would be the calendar icon displaying the date. But, imho, that's a fairly obvious and standard piece of functionality. To say nobody else can do that is like saying that nobody else can make a touchscreen based phone.
 
This is a jury trial. All of the evidence was screened (hence the documents Samsung released that the judge said wasn't admissible), this may not be cut and dry legal proof that x,y,z happened, but it is meant to, and probably will get the jury to realize that Samsung definitely had the iPhone on a pedestal, and did indeed use it for a lot of "inspiration".

Now it's up to the jury to decide what this proves and what it doesn't. I'd be interested to see if Samsung had these documents for all the other competitors. If not it is quite suspect.
 
Or rather, I can, because it's a predominantly Apple fan site.

There is nothing legally or morally wrong in analysing what your competitors are doing, and determining weaknesses in your own product. This is absolutely normal, and necessary for competitive business.

If you don't think that Apple do the same thing, then you are seriously deluded. The very fact that they have these lawsuits out there proves how much time they spend analysing their competitors products.

There is nothing in the few images that I've looked at that demonstrates Samsung were copying Apple. In fact, one of them - the icon design - specifically stated as a course of action, differentiating, not copying, the design.

The one thing you could point at as an instruction to copy would be the calendar icon displaying the date. But, imho, that's a fairly obvious and standard piece of functionality. To say nobody else can do that is like saying that nobody else can make a touchscreen based phone.

.... and I cannot believe comments like these! :)
 
Or rather, I can, because it's a predominantly Apple fan site.

There is nothing legally or morally wrong in analysing what your competitors are doing, and determining weaknesses in your own product. This is absolutely normal, and necessary for competitive business.

If you don't think that Apple do the same thing, then you are seriously deluded. The very fact that they have these lawsuits out there proves how much time they spend analysing their competitors products.

There is nothing in the few images that I've looked at that demonstrates Samsung were copying Apple. In fact, one of them - the icon design - specifically stated as a course of action, differentiating, not copying, the design.

The one thing you could point at as an instruction to copy would be the calendar icon displaying the date. But, imho, that's a fairly obvious and standard piece of functionality. To say nobody else can do that is like saying that nobody else can make a touchscreen based phone.

In school that is called "putting it in your own words" which can absolutely be considered plagiarism, and the jury will decide the legality of it.
 
Once it goes to trial the plaintiff has probably already lost

In cases over technology between major firms, I would argue that once the case goes to trial the plaintiff has probably already lost. Off the top of my head I can't think of one recent example where a major company was successfully enjoined from alleged infringement where the plaintiff did not want to license the technology at all.

What's funny is no one mentions the biggest win in recent times in an IP case:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/24/technology/24qualcomm.html

Observe that Qualcomm in settlement netted cross-licensing, patents transferred, licensing fees, and basically a clear path to all the IP needed to create their wireless chips including their newer "worldwide" LTE wireless chips. Nokia tried to spin they got something other than not being sued by Qualcomm anymore, but considering Nokia would up having to purchase Qualcomm SoCs just to make their Lumias after blowing up their company switching to Windows Phone, it appears Nokia got nothing. Now that was a 100% patent win on a scale I fear Apple will not be able to achieve.
 
Not only did Apple apply for protections, but they sort of invented Android in a round about way. I don't understand why Fandroids don't get this, you know, the whole part about "STOLEN PRODUCT," which isn't necessarily inferring to the iPhone.

Apple had two teams working on a phone OS, and one did a Linux based OS and the other shrunk OSX. These things were not just argued on paper. They were working alpha software running on devices.

Hello, Schmidt ala Google was on the board, and knew about these projects. This is where the entire Apple Google war started... not just because Android mimicks the iPhone, but the entire concept of Android was an unused Apple project.

As for copying Features Google added to Android... um, please tell me when Google did anything original? Anything.
-Maps? Remember Map Quest? Yeah, it's a copy.
-Widgets? Um, while Apple didn't invent those either, they first appeared on the Mac.
-YouTube? Maybe, but they bought that, didn't invent it.
-Multi-tasking? Been around forever... and Apple didn't copy that either. Apple's multi-tasking on the iPhone is reminiscent of using cntrl-tab on the Mac to switch between apps, and even animates that way. Been around for over a decade. Android also sucks at Multitasking.
-Pretty much ever google product is a clone of someone else's. Every last one of them. The Google Goggles project will probably be their first attempt at originality with an unoriginal idea.

Hell, Google attempted to copy the apple tv with that stupid Nexus ball... and look at that fiasco.
Is Apple always original? No. No one is. But just because a concept isn't original, you can be original in the innovation of an idea and how it works, which Google is so not and apple so is.

I actually got an Android phone because I was trying to save money and needed a change after 3 iPhones (which I do miss). I can't seem to say there is anything about Android that I feel the iPhone really coppied. Notification center would be about the closest thing... and swiping down instead of left to right is hardly copying. In fact, didn't Google get smcaked for infringing on multi-touch patents? And everyone else?

There are certain ideas and implementations of things that are far from copying, and there are things that are blatantly ripping someone off.

In the case of Samsung, they blatantly ripped off the iPhone. IOS vs. Android... hard to say, because who knows how much of a killed Apple Project Google copied in the first place?

I haven't seen a post with more wrong facts than this. I think that no paragraph can be saved.

And the saddest thing is that you probably believe all of this junk
 
"blah blah blah... Apple rules, Samsung sucks!"

-Posted from my iPhone

"blah blah blah... Samsung rules, Apple sucks!"

-Posted from my Galaxy Siii

We should all be thanking our lucky stars that nobody on this forum sits on that jury.
 
You can't shred email. Not physically anyway. And that's why Samsung used their own 'mySingle' email system, which deletes emails after a period of time by default. To destroy incriminating evidence in the form of email.

Users need to 'opt out' of the auto-delete mechanism of 'mySingle.' Top Samsung execs didn't opt out. And apparently there are no redundant off-site backups of the 'mySingle' email data.

The 'mySingle' email system got Samsung into hot water years ago. In the Mosaid v. Samsung case, the District of New Jersey concluded that:


Thank you for taking my sarcastic post so seriously.
 
I haven't seen a post with more wrong facts than this. I think that no paragraph can be saved.

And the saddest thing is that you probably believe all of this junk

Wow this might be the first post where you didn't ask a question :p

All kidding aside, i agree with you here..."apple kinda invented Android"? Sheesh.
 
Anyone who's read the document can clearly see that. Most "solutions" are not to "copy the iPhone", simply to make improvements. This document in a sense is proof that Samsung did not copy the iPhone, but made usability improvements based on the fact that their initial designs had flaws the competition didn't have.

IE, the consumer got a better product thanks to Samsung revising their usability in light of what was on the market. Something Apple also does and that every company does.

Exactly! This argument is perfect, which is why Samsung was plenty happy to have this wonderful document detailing their "competitive" spirit admitted into evidence, right? Oh, wait.

Based on everything that has come out so far, one thing is very clear: when the iPhone came out, the number one imperative in the thinking of the entire company could be summarized as "iPhone is the gold standard - get off your asses as eliminate virtually every difference between our phone on both the H/W and S/W sides because any difference breaks in favour of the iPhone at this moment!"

It's not like there is only one way of doing things, Apple's, and so it follows that everything will converge towards the same solutions.

Rather, Apple's way of doing things was so damn superior that once they did it, it seemed natural and obvious. That's how you know you've crushed the competition. Samsung itself admits this when it says that Apple's design should be available to everybody because the market place has chosen it as the gold standard. There was an article a week ago to this effect.

Samsung is arguing all of the following, simultaneously:

1. Apple's changes were so revolutionary they should be standard for everyone as you can't compete without them.
2. Apple shouldn't get patents on it's designs, as there is nothing special about them.
3. Samsung did not copy Apple and it's products are unique.
4. The memos throughout the company detailing (1) and how to "improve" Samsung products by eliminating differences with Apple merely show the competitive process.
5. The memos shouldn't be placed into evidence.
6. Place the Apple memo with Eddy Cue mentioning Apple could compete in the 7" market into evidence.
7. Apple is a hypocrite because the Eddy Cue memo is equivalent the our horde of memos that show how Apple was copied.
8. Apple is a hypocrite because we are suing them over patents as well.Please don't mention that our patent suits are not about trade-dress but about FRAND licensing where Apple preferred to have a court decide what is fair rather than pay outrageous licensing fees that contradict FRAND.

Why stop here? Now now some hardware fun!

9. We didn't copy Apple hardware, we just made a rectangle like them. All phones are rectangles (except for the ovals we made before), so this is not copying.
10. Don't place our memos showing how we "inspired" ourselves from the Apple iRectangle™ into evidence. But remember it's all legit.
11. Those Apple memos about them "imagining what a phone would look like if Sony were to create one" show that Apple copied someone else's Rectangle™ just like we did! Copy be copied, right?

And finally, the kicker, a tactic from earlier that Samsung should really keep for their closer:

12. We tried asking Schiller if he would help our design studios by showing us the iPhone 5, but he refused! Where is his competitive spirit? What a jerk! But most importantly, Apple will change the iPhone 5 from the previous Rectangles™ we didn't copy, so obviously their previous Rectangles™ are retroactively public domain and fair-game to copy, right?

GO SAMSUNG! ONWARDS TO VICTORY!
 
Exactly! This argument is perfect, which is why Samsung was plenty happy to have this wonderful document detailing their "competitive" spirit admitted into evidence, right? Oh, wait.

Samsung didn't want this admitted for the very reason you see in this thread. The context of it can be twisted to say things it doesn't and to present as something it is not.
 
Hello, Schmidt ala Google was on the board, and knew about these projects. This is where the entire Apple Google war started... not just because Android mimicks the iPhone, but the entire concept of Android was an unused Apple project.

So why hasn't Schmidt not been sued for trading in industrial secrets? Why has Apple never called him out on using his position on the board to his own personal advantage?

-Maps? Remember Map Quest? Yeah, it's a copy.

Yeah, Mapquest had Street View and all the other neat features inherit with Google Maps. It doesn't matter to you though, because the base idea was already established, and you can scream copy copy copy copy until you think it means something.

-Widgets? Um, while Apple didn't invent those either, they first appeared on the Mac.

So if Apple didn't invent them, then by your logic, Apple is guilty of copying. Right?

-YouTube? Maybe, but they bought that, didn't invent it.

And Apple bought Siri and whole loads of tech you use daily in iOS. What's the point?

-Multi-tasking? Been around forever... and Apple didn't copy that either. Apple's multi-tasking on the iPhone is reminiscent of using cntrl-tab on the Mac to switch between apps, and even animates that way. Been around for over a decade. Android also sucks at Multitasking.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe Ctrl-Tab is the equivalent to Alt-Tabbing in Windows, which I believe was the first platform to introduce the concept.

Hell, Google attempted to copy the apple tv with that stupid Nexus ball... and look at that fiasco.

...and was AppleTV an innovative concept when it first came out? No. There have been tons of internet ready set top boxes available long before it arrived. So why is Google copying it specifically with the Nexus ball?

Is Apple always original? No. No one is. But just because a concept isn't original, you can be original in the innovation of an idea and how it works, which Google is so not and apple so is.

Your argument basically comes down to "I like this company better, so I choose to believe their products are more innovative, and they're somehow special". Everything you've said is stupidly skewed to make Google look bad, and Apple look good. It has no merit whatsoever.

Also, Google made a self driving car. That is awesome.
 
What do people think Apple can win?

Bottom line, do people really think Samsung will either be enjoined from producing further phones that resemble iPhones or be forced to pay licensing fees equivalent to what Microsoft charges Android makers to use Microsoft patents such as for exFAT? Because I think there's no chance Apple achieves either outcome, in which case by definition Samsung wins the trial. And this trial is in a US court.
 
You, sir, are a shining light of reason. Bravo!
After this case is over and the jury has decided, we will have a precedent that will become a very good indication as to where inspiration ends and copying begins.

Thanks.

It will be interesting. The thing about really good ideas is that they always seem obvious after the fact. You get that "why didn't I think of that?" response. This quickly turns into "anybody could have done that" and "that was so obvious!".

We have a tendency to see our past as more logical, orderly and predictable than it really was. It's how we cope with living in a world which is largely chaotic. That's why we need patents on design because the obvious designs that were obviously going to succeed weren't obvious at all! Anyone who designs something new and succeeds with that design was taking a huge risk and it's right that risk and reward go hand in hand. If you risk nothing then why should you stand to benefit?

I am certainly not saying that all patents are reasonable or that how the entire system works is perfect. I just don't know. But the principal that intellectual property should be protected is sound and that includes design patents even if that is a harder area to have clear cut rules about.

I like to think of the physical design of objects as being akin to a technical design for a computer programme. But, whereas the computer programme interacts with data and manipulates information, the physical design of an object interacts with and manipulates (I mean that in the neutral sense rather than the pejorative) people. It's an interface between the psychological and physiological aspects of a human and the object/environment.

If I designed a system that allowed two machines to interface with one another that would be covered by patent law - so why not a system that allows a human and a machine to interface? That system would be the design of the object(s) as perceived by the human mind. Surely that's just as important and no less complicated.
 
Exactly! This argument is perfect, which is why Samsung was plenty happy to have this wonderful document detailing their "competitive" spirit admitted into evidence, right? Oh, wait.

Based on everything that has come out so far, one thing is very clear: when the iPhone came out, the number one imperative in the thinking of the entire company could be summarized as "iPhone is the gold standard - get off your asses as eliminate virtually every difference between our phone on both the H/W and S/W sides because any difference breaks in favour of the iPhone at this moment!"

It's not like there is only one way of doing things, Apple's, and so it follows that everything will converge towards the same solutions.

Rather, Apple's way of doing things was so damn superior that once they did it, it seemed natural and obvious. That's how you know you've crushed the competition. Samsung itself admits this when it says that Apple's design should be available to everybody because the market place has chosen it as the gold standard. There was an article a week ago to this effect.

Samsung is arguing all of the following, simultaneously:

1. Apple's changes were so revolutionary they should be standard for everyone as you can't compete without them.
2. Apple shouldn't get patents on it's designs, as there is nothing special about them.
3. Samsung did not copy Apple and it's products are unique.
4. The memos throughout the company detailing (1) and how to "improve" Samsung products by eliminating differences with Apple merely show the competitive process.
5. The memos shouldn't be placed into evidence.
6. Place the Apple memo with Eddy Cue mentioning Apple could compete in the 7" market into evidence.
7. Apple is a hypocrite because the Eddy Cue memo is equivalent the our horde of memos that show how Apple was copied.
8. Apple is a hypocrite because we are suing them over patents as well.Please don't mention that our patent suits are not about trade-dress but about FRAND licensing where Apple preferred to have a court decide what is fair rather than pay outrageous licensing fees that contradict FRAND.

Why stop here? Now now some hardware fun!

9. We didn't copy Apple hardware, we just made a rectangle like them. All phones are rectangles (except for the ovals we made before), so this is not copying.
10. Don't place our memos showing how we "inspired" ourselves from the Apple iRectangle™ into evidence. But remember it's all legit.
11. Those Apple memos about them "imagining what a phone would look like if Sony were to create one" show that Apple copied someone else's Rectangle™ just like we did! Copy be copied, right?

And finally, the kicker, a tactic from earlier that Samsung should really keep for their closer:

12. We tried asking Schiller if he would help our design studios by showing us the iPhone 5, but he refused! Where is his competitive spirit? What a jerk! But most importantly, Apple will change the iPhone 5 from the previous Rectangles™ we didn't copy, so obviously their previous Rectangles™ are retroactively public domain and fair-game to copy, right?

GO SAMSUNG! ONWARDS TO VICTORY!

What a brilliant post, the epitome of sarcasm!
 
I honestly thought Samsung would have an actual defense, or that it wasn't as bad as it seemed.

Just relying on Macrumor updates will give you that impression, going on other websites will show you that this court battle is actually very tight and unpredictable.
 
Samsung didn't want this admitted for the very reason you see in this thread. The context of it can be twisted to say things it doesn't and to present as something it is not.

Is that speculation or did Samsung say this? If yes, can you provide a source?

Not saying what you're offering is unlikely, just saying it's better off sourced because i think it's more likely they wouldn't want a jury seeing this doc for the reason it essentially says "Apple has this, so do that"
 
I earnestly hope Samsung burns to the ground. Deceitful talentless little turds.

I don't agree. They make wonderful LCD screens and everything else. And their windows phones are actually very good. I just hate their Android side of the business. Android sucks (I've used it for a year, I HATE it), and they are just copying Apple to try to make it better. It won't be better. It still sucks. I won't post all the things that don't work / suck about it as the list will be too long.
 
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