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You really doubt I read it? Ok. I doubt you've read it. See how that works. Why do you think I might care whether or not you believe I read it?

And while the document might show "slavishly copying" to you - you're not the judge or on the jury so we'll have to see what they think when they issue a verdict. As for me - I don't think the document defines "slavishly" copying. Then again - I've see dozens of competitor analysis reports and presentations like this before.

I never commented anything about the jury, and yes, I was just expressing my opinion.

Even I've seen dozens of competitor analysis reports before and none so blatant. See how that works?

Edit: The reason why I said you haven't read it is samsung directly admits to having copied the icons from iPhone and then the suggestion is to differentiate a bit so it isn't too obvious. Now I'm pretty sure you'll come up with some explanation for that too!
 
Do the Apple fans in this thread really not think similar memos exist at Apple HQ? There would be documents there, buried away or now destroyed, outlining the iPhone's approach to certain features vs those of competitors, in order to strengthen Apple's OS. For example, I'd be willing to bet any money people at Apple have been paid to sit down and pour through Windows Phone and Android, creating similar documents outlining Apple's approach to certain problems and comparing them to Microsoft's and Google's.

There'd be a memo outlining Apple's terrible iOS 4 notification system, with comparisons to Google and MS's approach, noting the less intrusive methods, the way notifications appear at the top of the screen in WP and the way notifications collate together in one central location in Android, accessed by an easy swipe down. The recommendation would be to implement similar methods that provide much of the same functionality, which is what we've seen. Same goes for other ideas, such as the way WP7 lock screens jump when touched, but not swiped, providing users with feedback and an idea of what to do. When Apple implemented the permanent camera button in 5.1, which again, would have come from comparisons with Android devices, they would have issued a recommendation that the camera slider uses a similar "bounce when touched" mechanic as found in WP, to give users an idea of what to do with the slider. Same goes for ideas such as swiping from the camera directly into the gallery. Apple would have noted in comparisons with their own camera app that Windows Phone supports swiping directly from the viewfinder into the gallery, making their system of switching to the gallery app by exiting the camera and opening the gallery app, or pressing the small button of the last picture to enter the camera roll seem clunky in comparison, with Apple in turn recommending that their OS supports such gestures in the camera. Apple doesn't exist in a bubble, they analyse competitors and implement their ideas much in the same way as anyone else.
 
I'm just genuinely curious, you have a right to your opinion.

Like I said, side by side the iOS one looks superior to me. And in my opinion is better. (Like looking at an RX-8 and a Mazda 6 for instance, RX-8 looks better). Now some would say the Mazda 6 is better because it won't break the bank and it gets the job done. But others will love the RX-8 simply because it looks badass.

Now I'm sort of in that situation. I really haven't tried out the Android notification system enough to say it is inferior to iOS, but from an observer's standpoint, iOS Notification Center looks sexier and is a step up. Enough to call it an innovation on top of Android's system? Sure. Just like Android's notification system was a step up from plain alerts (and, in that situation, sexier).
 
Apple hasn't stolen/been inspired by any design, and no other company or product have ever been brought up in discussion for reference when talking about design changes - EVER!

Geez...
 
Like I said, side by side the iOS one looks superior to me. And in my opinion is better. (Like looking at an RX-8 and a Mazda 6 for instance, RX-8 looks better). Now some would say the Mazda 6 is better because it won't break the bank and it gets the job done. But others will love the RX-8 simply because it looks badass.

Now I'm sort of in that situation. I really haven't tried out the Android notification system enough to say it is inferior to iOS, but from an observer's standpoint, iOS Notification Center looks sexier and is a step up.

So it is all about the looks then? Or is there something about functionality too?
 
I love Samsung... but I'm not to sure if they will make it through this. :(

Let's hope there are more companies making gigantic phones in a year.

But.... is it true love... you know that "I'll stand beside you when the **** hits the fan because you copied someone else's ideas" no matter what kind of love", or is it the " ill stand besides you until the **** hits the fan because you copied someone else's ideas" kind of love.... ?

Oh, I didn't read the second line.... I guess it's the later.....
 
I love Samsung... but I'm not to sure if they will make it through this. :(

Let's hope there are more companies making gigantic phones in a year.

They will be fine, but I'm going to be praying against your hopes. "Gigantic" and "Mobile" are mutually exclusive terms in my world. They don't belong in the same product description.
 
So it is all about the looks then? Or is there something about functionality too?

Well the version I played with a little (I believe it was running on a Nexus One) wasn't as snappy as Notification Center and I don't remember the slide-to-unlock-to-app feature on the landing screen if you got a new notification.

But yeah, a lot of it is based on looks. However, in many cases, looks are directly tied to function. If it isn't clear what something does you really won't know how to work will you? :p
 
Guys, relax! What's the point of arguing about all this crap. That's what the overpaid lawyers scum are for.

There's more important things to worry about and The Olympics are on!!!
 
Guys, relax! What's the point of arguing about all this crap. That's what the overpaid lawyers scum are for.

There's more important things to worry about and The Olympics are on!!!

HEY BUDDY!!! Don't knock overpaid lawyer scum... I've got two of them in my family...... Of course we don't invite them over much, but STILL.....
 
Funny how many of these comments still take the perspective there is no credibility in this case against Samsung, or that Apple's case is frivolous.

This document is pretty compelling for Apple's position in my opinion.
 
Do the Apple fans in this thread really not think similar memos exist at Apple HQ? There would be documents there, buried away or now destroyed, outlining the iPhone's approach to certain features vs those of competitors, in order to strengthen Apple's OS. For example, I'd be willing to bet any money people at Apple have been paid to sit down and pour through Windows Phone and Android, creating similar documents outlining Apple's approach to certain problems and comparing them to Microsoft's and Google's.

There'd be a memo outlining Apple's terrible iOS 4 notification system, with comparisons to Google and MS's approach, noting the less intrusive methods, the way notifications appear at the top of the screen in WP and the way notifications collate together in one central location in Android, accessed by an easy swipe down. The recommendation would be to implement similar methods that provide much of the same functionality, which is what we've seen. Same goes for other ideas, such as the way WP7 lock screens jump when touched, but not swiped, providing users with feedback and an idea of what to do. When Apple implemented the permanent camera button in 5.1, which again, would have come from comparisons with Android devices, they would have issued a recommendation that the camera slider uses a similar "bounce when touched" mechanic as found in WP, to give users an idea of what to do with the slider. Same goes for ideas such as swiping from the camera directly into the gallery. Apple would have noted in comparisons with their own camera app that Windows Phone supports swiping directly from the viewfinder into the gallery, making their system of switching to the gallery app by exiting the camera and opening the gallery app, or pressing the small button of the last picture to enter the camera roll seem clunky in comparison, with Apple in turn recommending that their OS supports such gestures in the camera. Apple doesn't exist in a bubble, they analyse competitors and implement their ideas much in the same way as anyone else.


There is a difference between analyzing and copying systematically. What Samsung has done is it's examined each and every screen (not a high level "analysis"), it's even looking at things like "icon shadows", "position of the seconds hand in a clock", these are the things that i just can't categorize as an "analysis", but a straight forward attempt at copying.
 
False, at least if you say that someone else is misinformed you have to be sure of what you're saying.

Android notification center was shown on February 2.008, the first JB notification center was shown on August 2.008

Part of the problem is the fact that Android handsets didn't get shipped until October or November 2008.

I am not saying who is first, but the perception causing this debate appears to be stemming from what was available by consumers first, as opposed to shown.
 
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There is a difference between analyzing and copying systematically. What Samsung has done is it's examined each and every screen (not a high level "analysis"), it's even looking at things like "icon shadows", "position of the seconds hand in a clock", these are the things that i just can't categorize as an "analysis", but a straight forward attempt at copying.

I think it's quite clear it was copying. They saw what ios did and did the same thing.
 
Now I'm sort of in that situation. I really haven't tried out the Android notification system enough to say it is inferior to iOS, but from an observer's standpoint, iOS Notification Center looks sexier and is a step up. Enough to call it an innovation on top of Android's system? Sure. Just like Android's notification system was a step up from plain alerts (and, in that situation, sexier).

That's because you're probably basing it off shots of the older notification center. The one in Jelly Bean (and I believe ICS) looks far better...

android-jelly-bean-notifications-feature-257x300.jpg


From what little I've seen of it, the Android rev offers a little more functionality, while the iOS rev is more focused on...er...notifying you of things.
 
Guys, relax! What's the point of arguing about all this crap. That's what the overpaid lawyers scum are for.

There's more important things to worry about and The Olympics are on!!!

LOL - Scum why? Yes, there are scummy lawyers - but there are also scummy doctors, plumbers, mechanics, teachers, etc. Why do you think all are scummy?

You can call them overpaid when you can do what they do - Which, I'm assuming, would be never.
 
There is a difference between analyzing and copying systematically. What Samsung has done is it's examined each and every screen (not a high level "analysis"), it's even looking at things like "icon shadows", "position of the seconds hand in a clock", these are the things that i just can't categorize as an "analysis", but a straight forward attempt at copying.

Again - your opinion. I've seen much more detailed reports from applications to devices to websites.

If nothing else - what is readily apparent is that people will see what they want to see in these documents.
 
That's because you're probably basing it off shots of the older notification center. The one in Jelly Bean (and I believe ICS) looks far better...

Image

From what little I've seen of it, the Android rev offers a little more functionality, while the iOS rev is more focused on...er...notifying you of things.

Damn, that does look good : O
 
Again - your opinion. I've seen much more detailed reports from applications to devices to websites.

If nothing else - what is readily apparent is that people will see what they want to see in these documents.

I don't know about you, but generally when I'm speaking/communicating I tend to express MY OPINION, so for god's sake stop saying "It's your opinion".

If you read what I've written it's very clear that it is MY OPINION, let me quote it again....

".... these are the things that i just can't categorize ..."
 
The really interesting question here is not so much that of the patent dispute or the specific details here. I tend to agree that Samsung has tried to copy Apple's solutions and to make their products more similar to Apple's in order to gain sales. If there is a real leader in terms of customer experience and that leader is very famous and popular, the "this one is just like that one, only it's cheaper" sales pitch is very useful. Whether this amounts to patent infringement is not for me to say, I'm not a patent lawyer.

This all being said, there is a difference between aping someone else to gain sales, standardising certain aspects of a solution in order to make things easier for switchers and being "inspired" by something else.

I think Samsung has done a fair bit of the former - they seem to have chosen to copy or closely mimic Apple's iPhone in order to improve their own product and thus increase sales. This is morally grey and legally, well, we don't know yet.

The middle item, standardising elements, is a bit complex. For instance, using red text to highlight a mistake on an electronic form has now become fairly standard. If someone had patented that and enforced that patent, each place we go on the web, each time we filled in a form, we'd have to look out for a new kind of marker. That would be bad for all of us. Some things that are really, very obvious and very natural probably need to be open to all. I'm not sure how that can be properly defined.

But then we move on to inspiration. A lot of people like to bring up Jobs' quote about being proud to steal ideas but they tend to do so out of context. Stealing ideas and copying solutions are not the same thing. The idea to create a social network on the internet didn't belong to Mark Zuckerberg. Facebook wasn't the first and it won't be the last. But the implementation, the solution, that had to be his own. Had he just copied Myspace and slapped Facebook on it he'd have been in trouble. This is what Jobs meant when he spoke about stealing ideas. An idea is an idea and no one can own it. A solution, however, that can be owned. I think I'm roughly correct on that but, once again, I'm not a lawyer.

Now, taking inspiration from something as amazing as the first iPhone is not only a good thing but it's inevitable. Apple utterly blew away the competition with the iPhone and there's really no point denying it. Nokia, Samsumg, RIM, Palm - they were all shocked by what Apple had created. I'm sure if you ask the engineers working at RIM at the time they'd tell you they were amazed. The iPhone did us all a favour because it spurred the competition on to create better phones. That's inspiration. Showing people a new way and letting them use that information, use that knowledge, to come up with something better. That's the difference between using someone's research to support your own, and plagiarism. You can't just copy but you can be inspired.

I think that's the interesting discussion here - where does inspiration end and copying begin. Is it in the intention or is it about the end result? Can we even apply a hard and fast rule? I don't know but I think that's a great discussion that's worth having - and we don't need to get into any silly fanboy battles over it.

You, sir, are a shining light of reason. Bravo!
After this case is over and the jury has decided, we will have a precedent that will become a very good indication as to where inspiration ends and copying begins.
 
Samsung, I'm pretty sure you can get a shredder at Staples for under $20

You can't shred email. Not physically anyway. And that's why Samsung used their own 'mySingle' email system, which deletes emails after a period of time by default. To destroy incriminating evidence in the form of email.

Users need to 'opt out' of the auto-delete mechanism of 'mySingle.' Top Samsung execs didn't opt out. And apparently there are no redundant off-site backups of the 'mySingle' email data.

The 'mySingle' email system got Samsung into hot water years ago. In the Mosaid v. Samsung case, the District of New Jersey concluded that:

"Samsung’s practices resulted in the destruction of relevant emails, and that 'common sense dictates that [Samsung] was more likely to have been threatened by that evidence' ..."
 
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