Second Apple-Samsung Patent Trial Begins with Focus on Apple's 'Holy War', Advertising Envy, and Phil Schiller

[jasonbogen]

Tie products together to keep customers in our ecosystem? If a company can't keep customers in through innovation and value proposition, let's tie them into our products. Bad business and not the Apple I know.

I think if we could migrate iTunes and other purchases easily to another device Apple base wound drop considerably - then again I think other OS do this too.

How is it bad business? It's not some artificial handcuff, the integrated ecosystem IS one of their biggest value propositions. Sure it comes with some limitations, but it is good business because it has created a cross sell. They also care about making everything work well together which again is one of the biggest user advantages of being in the Apple ecosystem. Nobody has ever come close to providing that kind of user experience and it is one of those big things that give Apple the brand loyalty that those who are not in the ecosystem think is some blind religious thing.

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No. What company doesn't want to lock customers into their ecosystem? You think Google, Microsoft, Amazon, FB etc. think any differently?

Exactly...this is precisely how Microsoft won the PC OS wars. It is the most important thing for anyone in this industry.

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Interested read on the WSJ - I suggest people click in.

Of note

"In the same email, Jobs identified issues for the executives overseeing Apple’s iOS mobile software. He said the company “needed to catch up to Android where we are behind.” He cited “notifications, tethering and speech” as three areas, while writing that Apple could leapfrog Android with features like Siri, Apple’s speech-recognizing digital assistant."

and "Apple is in danger of hanging on to old paradigm for too long (innovator’s dilemma)” and “Google and Microsoft are further along on the technology” to connect and synchronize contacts, calendars, photos, music, videos and bookmarks across all devices using online services."

What's interesting is this is right from Jobs' himself. Which goes against what some people seem to believe here...

The problem I have with this legally is that it doesn't prove intent. This could be exactly how Jobs viewed things or it could have been the typical football coach speech talking up the opposing teams every week to make sure you are motivated to beat them. He certainly didn't write this with the idea that they would be in court proving what he thought the state of Apple was at the time.

 

[jasonbogen]

...but you are defending Apple.

No, he is explaining that you can't take an internal email like this at face value. As I said in my previous post, it is exactly what every high school football coach in the country does every week. They will talk up the competition and make it sound like they can't win if we don't get better in one area or another...even if they are far superior. Leaders in all areas use this tactic. It's not a defense of Apple, just pointing out logically how easily this email can be made useless in court.

 

[samcraig]

How is it bad business? It's not some artificial handcuff, the integrated ecosystem IS one of their biggest value propositions. Sure it comes with some limitations, but it is good business because it has created a cross sell. They also care about making everything work well together which again is one of the biggest user advantages of being in the Apple ecosystem. Nobody has ever come close to providing that kind of user experience and it is one of those big things that give Apple the brand loyalty that those who are not in the ecosystem think is some blind religious thing.

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Exactly...this is precisely how Microsoft won the PC OS wars. It is the most important thing for anyone in this industry.

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The problem I have with this legally is that it doesn't prove intent. This could be exactly how Jobs viewed things or it could have been the typical football coach speech talking up the opposing teams every week to make sure you are motivated to beat them. He certainly didn't write this with the idea that they would be in court proving what he thought the state of Apple was at the time.

I wasn't reiterating it from a legal argument

 

[sracer]

How is it bad business? It's not some artificial handcuff, the integrated ecosystem IS one of their biggest value propositions. Sure it comes with some limitations, but it is good business because it has created a cross sell. They also care about making everything work well together which again is one of the biggest user advantages of being in the Apple ecosystem.

That's what Apple defenders have been claiming. But it appears that those internal memos tell a different story. Their primary purpose appears to get people hooked and then lock them in. Bottom line is that their primary purpose was customer lock-in. If they had to do it with seamless integration so be it, but seamless integration was the means not the ends.

The result is that there are people who themselves say they are "locked in" to the Apple ecosystem. Unlike every other ecosystem, consumers locked in to Apple are doubly locked by the software AND hardware.

 

[mangonights]

Schiller seems like a good egg, but Apple marketing hasn't been the best since he became solely responsible for it. Improvement is much needed. I'm hoping his "can't innovate my ass" comment was him finding his feet and that we'll see a new strong marketing voice this summer starting at WWDC. I thought that moment was pretty spectacular. It's memorable for sure.

 

[Cyborg21]

Nope. Judge Judy would take One look at Apple and scream baloney.

''Baloney'' hmm... Maybe you haven't seen Galaxy S5, Galaxy Note Pro and Galaxy Gear yet

 

[jasonbogen]

That's what Apple defenders have been claiming. But it appears that those internal memos tell a different story. Their primary purpose appears to get people hooked and then lock them in. Bottom line is that their primary purpose was customer lock-in. If they had to do it with seamless integration so be it, but seamless integration was the means not the ends.

The result is that there are people who themselves say they are "locked in" to the Apple ecosystem. Unlike every other ecosystem, consumers locked in to Apple are doubly locked by the software AND hardware.

I would say two things to that:

1. Apple has always been about making things work together in their ecosystem seamlessly. This goes back WAY before there were iPods, iPhones, iPads and AppleTV. Their hardware, networking, documents from different applications. This is one of the biggest values Apple has tried to deliver in their user experience.

2. What is wrong with trying to lock people in to your ecosystem? Again, from a business perspective it is what any company would want to do if they could figure it out. Apple has done it by striving towards seamless integration. Jobs was always about making the best products. There was no point in doing it if it couldn't be insanely great. I don't know for certain that this was true, but the evidence over the years certainly points that way and I believe that's why they have been successful where others have failed. Because others approach it exactly the way you are accusing Apple of doing it...as the means as opposed to the end. Name any company who has done it with as much value for customers.

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I wasn't reiterating it from a legal argument

OK, my point was that logically those emails prove nothing about what he really thought. Looks like a very typical motivational tool used everything from parenting to business to sports. Doesn't mean he didn't believe that, but for the sake of argument it is really worthless either on a message board or in a courtroom.

 

[sracer]

2. What is wrong with trying to lock people in to your ecosystem? Again, from a business perspective it is what any company would want to do if they could figure it out.

What do you think would be consumer response to, "We're committed to making products so compelling that consumers will stand in line to buy and that once they're in, we'll provide incentives to get in deeper to the point that it will be financially impractical to extricate themselves from our ecosystem."?

You're looking at that from a business perspective, but unless you are only a shareholder and not a customer that perspective is irrelevant.

When the frog jumped in the pot, it didn't expect to get boiled.

 

[samcraig]

OK, my point was that logically those emails prove nothing about what he really thought. Looks like a very typical motivational tool used everything from parenting to business to sports. Doesn't mean he didn't believe that, but for the sake of argument it is really worthless either on a message board or in a courtroom.

Possibly. But then again - many a forum posts imply that Apple is never behind the curve and/or Steve/Apple never worried about competition, etc.

Whether you think this was motivational or not - I'm inclined to believe that there's truth in it as a genuine concern. To what extent who can say. But it can't be denied or written off either.

 

[Glassed Silver]

Not really, thats the strategy of all of these big companies like Apple, Microsoft and Google.

And dare I say Apple is longest and most notoriously known for this amongst those three.

Glassed Silver:mac

 

[lpoulain]

OK - here's a consumer response

What do you think would be consumer response to, "We're committed to making products so compelling that consumers will stand in line to buy and that once they're in, we'll provide incentives to get in deeper to the point that it will be financially impractical to extricate themselves from our ecosystem."?

You're looking at that from a business perspective, but unless you are only a shareholder and not a customer that perspective is irrelevant.

When the frog jumped in the pot, it didn't expect to get boiled.

I'm a consumer. Don't own stock. In 2010 I bought a Mac and exited the hell that was Vista. It motivated me to by a used iPhone. Suddenly I had a unified contacts and reminders function. I bought a used iPad and discovered that Pages / Numbers and Keynote played nicely across platforms. It didn't take long for me to embrace the "ecosystem" because it works. My work life is easier. I don't have conflicts between work and home calendars. Reminders alerts me at a location. I use Maps on my Mac and transport to my phone. etc. etc. etc. As a consumer I am DELIGHTED be be wrapped up in the ecosystem. If it didn't work for me, I could get an Android or Windows phone (and it would be cheaper), but I don't want to.

That's one customer's perspective.

 

[parapup]

No. What company doesn't want to lock customers into their ecosystem? You think Google, Microsoft, Amazon, FB etc. think any differently?

Amazon - can order their things from any browser, can play prime videos on number of non-Amazon devices, same with Kindle books. Google - ditto. Microsoft - now a days even they are trying to expand their definition of cross platform from various Windows versions to include other really different platforms. Apple - not so much.

 

[sracer]

I'm a consumer. Don't own stock. In 2010 I bought a Mac and exited the hell that was Vista. It motivated me to by a used iPhone. Suddenly I had a unified contacts and reminders function. I bought a used iPad and discovered that Pages / Numbers and Keynote played nicely across platforms. It didn't take long for me to embrace the "ecosystem" because it works. My work life is easier. I don't have conflicts between work and home calendars. Reminders alerts me at a location. I use Maps on my Mac and transport to my phone. etc. etc. etc. As a consumer I am DELIGHTED be be wrapped up in the ecosystem. If it didn't work for me, I could get an Android or Windows phone (and it would be cheaper), but I don't want to.

That's one customer's perspective.

So your aren't actually so embedded in Apple's ecosystem that it would be financially impractical to get out...therefore you aren't the type of person I was talking about.

 

[Rogifan]

Amazon - can order their things from any browser, can play prime videos on number of non-Amazon devices, same with Kindle books. Google - ditto. Microsoft - now a days even they are trying to expand their definition of cross platform from various Windows versions to include other really different platforms. Apple - not so much.

Yeah but you're still locked into their ecosystem. Neither Amazon nor Microsoft could really be defined as hardware companies like Apple is. Office on the iPad requires an Office 365 subscription and if I'm not mistaken documents can only be saved to OneDrive. To me that's lock-in to Microsoft's ecosystem.

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So your aren't actually so embedded in Apple's ecosystem that it would be financially impractical to get out...therefore you aren't the type of person I was talking about.

I'm just curious who Apple is forcing to be locked into their hardware/ecosystem. I keep hearing about how competitors have better products and cheaper prices so who are these mythical people that have all this money invested in stuff they can only use on Apple hardware?

 

[decksnap]

So, Steve Jobs sent an email to Apple employes that says Apple Technology is inferior to Google and Microsoft technology?

It means they are 'further along' than where they were, not further along than apple. Hence the 'haven't quite figured it out yet'.

 

[the8thark]

Your quote is a perfect example why some are disturbed by Apple wanting to lock customers into their ecosystem. RDF. Apple may not employ it as much these days, but certain fans of Apple employ it all the time. Your quote shows how it's employed, albeit in a subtle way.

You read the same thing we all did. Yet you re-mixed it to suit your narrative of Apple the Great. None of what you said can be gleaned from what you read. It sounds good. It feels inspirational. It's still RDF. When Jobs lays it out in black and white, it pretty cut and dried. Apple is a business. The operate that business very, very well. They operate that business successfully. From that perspective, they are to be admired; just like a lot of other companies (Google, Microsoft, Samsung, etc). That's where it ends for me.

I fear this trial will reveal some things diehard fans don't want to know. It will reveal Apple is more like their competitors. They are all businesses and not towers of Good and Evil.

Some good points there. Apple is a business and acts like one. But that being the final word died with Jobs. Cook's rant on that quarterly conference call where he went totally aggro about why you should own Apple shares proves this. Apple exist to make money firstly. But secondly they do care about the the moral dilemma as well. Apple do want to be seen as more than just a dollar hungry company.

This is one of the ways Cook has put his stamp on Apple and there are many more as we know.

 

[sseaton1971]

And by alternatives you mean? Piracy? Or do you have a better suggestion for all those movies I have in iTunes that I want to be able to watch in my Android table?

Guys... if you start looking at this exchanges deeply enough, you will probably realize that at the end Apple is not better than anybody else, or worse for that matter, but they end up getting free passes from us all the time. I need to wake up.

You knew what you were doing when you bought movies in iTunes. If you don't like Apple's ecosystem, why don't you use the many legal alternatives that are available. Who said anything about piracy? Oh, that's right... You did!

 

[69Mustang]

Some good points there. Apple is a business and acts like one. But that being the final word died with Jobs. Cook's rant on that quarterly conference call where he went totally aggro about why you should own Apple shares proves this. Apple exist to make money firstly. But secondly they do care about the the moral dilemma as well. Apple do want to be seen as more than just a dollar hungry company.

This is one of the ways Cook has put his stamp on Apple and there are many more as we know.

I am not disagreeing with you. I think Apple does care about more than money. I also think that feeling is not exclusive to Apple. The other "hated companies" care just as much as Apple. That's where this Good vs Evil meme needs to stop. None of these companies are paragons of virtue. They are businesses. At the end of the day, if you're a fan of Apple that's cool. If you're a fan of Google, Microsoft, Samsung, or Amazon it's cool too. That fandom doesn't have to be exclusive to just one of them. I'm not a fan of any company and that's okay as well. What I think we shouldn't do is view these companies through rose colored glasses; imbuing them with imagined attributes.

 

[jonyive4]

"tie all of our products together, so we further lock customers into our ecosystem"

Makes me feel a bit ill to read this. This, in a way, goes against Apple's goal of making the best products.

 

[jeffe]

"tie all of our products together, so we further lock customers into our ecosystem"

Makes me feel a bit ill to read this. This, in a way, goes against Apple's goal of making the best products.

Yes and Apple's ecosystem is more restrictive than it's competitors. This is why I refuse to buy into Apple's ecosystem when it comes to media. I'd be more open to iTunes if I could use it as easily on Android as I am able to use Google play content on iOS.

 

[sixrom]

Apple may have a massive amount of cash to burn, but this reeks of fear. Such a shame they've allowed their minds to take them down to the low road. Only Apple devotees like the publicity this generates. Only Apple devotees hang on Apples every word, every rumor, every nuance.

The well educated general public can see through the smoke and many are put off by Apples tactics. Millions of non-techies are very happy with their Samsung Galaxy phones, widescreen Samsung TV's, refrigerators and other great products.

How easy it would be for Apple to _act_ like a world class company and build products so terrific they'd make them even wealthier and stronger. Products so great Apples market share would skyrocket.

However it seems that Apple must get their revenge to make them whole. That speaks volumes.

 

[the8thark]

I am not disagreeing with you. I think Apple does care about more than money. I also think that feeling is not exclusive to Apple. The other "hated companies" care just as much as Apple. That's where this Good vs Evil meme needs to stop. None of these companies are paragons of virtue. They are businesses. At the end of the day, if you're a fan of Apple that's cool. If you're a fan of Google, Microsoft, Samsung, or Amazon it's cool too. That fandom doesn't have to be exclusive to just one of them. I'm not a fan of any company and that's okay as well. What I think we shouldn't do is view these companies through rose colored glasses; imbuing them with imagined attributes.

I only commented on Apple there, not on any other company with my last reply to you. You added in the other companies part. Nothing wrong about that though. It's not about good vs evil (even if google's mantra is "Don't be evil"). I was just stating that Cook's rant shows he's not a Jobs clone and he stands for different things in different ways to Jobs did. People quoting Jobs did this therefore Apple does the same are just quoting the long past. Apple has changed. Not entirely for the good but at least Apple is not stuck in Jobs land forever.

I'm a fan of (and follow) Apple, MS, Nintendo mostly and a few other smaller companies too. I don't think all 3 are perfect but all 3 have potential. I really dislike google, samsung, adobe and I try not to talk much about them, as if I did only hate would come from my mouth. Truthful words (no lies) but not nice words.

I get your point. Being ethical does not help the bottom line of any company. We all know this. And if companies try to do the moral thing, we should thank them for it. No matter what company it is. We are not talking about Gandhi or Nelson Mandela here. We are talking about profit driven companies who do the occasional moral deed to keep their customers and investors happy and spending money with them. That's about it really.

 

[linuxcooldude]

What do you think would be consumer response to, "We're committed to making products so compelling that consumers will stand in line to buy and that once they're in, we'll provide incentives to get in deeper to the point that it will be financially impractical to extricate themselves from our ecosystem."?

You're looking at that from a business perspective, but unless you are only a shareholder and not a customer that perspective is irrelevant.

When the frog jumped in the pot, it didn't expect to get boiled.

Nonsense. Moving between different platforms has always been more difficult both monetarily and cross compatibility.

MS windows, Mac OSX, Linux, Android, iOS...whatever, are all different.

 

[jasonbogen]

So your aren't actually so embedded in Apple's ecosystem that it would be financially impractical to get out...therefore you aren't the type of person I was talking about.

So what you are saying is that you don't like the way they worded it in their internal communication. It makes them sound like they are concerned with profit and not just creating a great user experience because it is the right thing to do. LOL...OK

 

[kdarling]

Nonsense. Moving between different platforms has always been more difficult both monetarily and cross compatibility.

True, although some things make it easier.

For example, if all the hardware uses microUSB cables instead of something proprietary.

Or especially if you store your data in a device agnostic cloud. That's why I like keeping calendar / mail / contacts with Google. I can easily switch between iOS, Android and Windows devices, and all the data is shared.