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Thanks eyoungren. This thread inspired me to write my final blog post for the Second Annual Winter PowerPC Challenge! (January 1-8, 2018) ...

http://hoop-la.ca/powerpc/2018/#server
Read your post. Glad to see you are doing the same thing.

I do want to make one comment though since you stated that you don't see a difference between OS X client sharing a folder or drive and OS X server.

Having been on both ends I can tell you some of what the differences are.

With just the client, when you write a file on a network share you have to have permission. That's fine if it's just you or someone else and you've granted the access to each account. It's also fine if you disable permissions on a drive.

But if you have multiple users writing many files to a share, say a group of graphic designers working on InDesign documents, unless you disable permissions entirely or monkey around with groups then whatever user writes a file retains the permissions to it. On a client computer sharing a drive that means NO ONE ELSE can access that file! That's a problem if you are trying to share multiple files between users.

And no business organization is going to be happy with disabling ownership on a volume or forcing multiple users to use ONE user account in order to solve this problem. Which also brings up another problem. If you have multiple users logged in under one account (so all have read/write access) what happens when multiple users open the same file, save at the same time or do other tasks simultaneously?

What happens is file loss and corruption.

OS X client is not designed to handle this sort of thing.

OS X server on the other hand allows this by letting you assign multiple users to groups and allowing those groups different kinds of access. Server locks a file when it's open so other users cannot open it. Server releases the file when done and allows others to open, modify and save. ACLS, which OS X server can do, is even finer grain control.

OS X server has Active Directory and Home Folders. You can bind your server to the Active Directory domain of a Windows Server, allowing all the users in that AD domain to access your server with their credentials.

Need to let a user use multiple Macs as if they were all the SAME? Home Folders. All your data in your home folder is stored on the server and no matter what Mac you use it's the same.

Client can't offer any of this, or do it in any reasonable fashion.

There are other things, such as firewalls, VPN, Radius Servers, Update Servers, NAT, DHCP, DNS, etc that client can't offer or that requires third party software.

Just wanted to point out some basic differences.
 
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I appreciate you pointing out the differences. You are right about Mac OS X Server, I had forgotten about some of those features you mentioned, and many others I didn't have a clue about. My "server" is not a business server, it's just for backups -- and, now that I remember, I pretty sure that I did disable all permissions because of the problems you mentioned.
 
So, thought I'd poke around the possible today…and came up with another use for my G3 server.

As a test I put a MKV video file on the 2TB shared drive. This drive is a RAID enclosure (2x1TB) connected via an eSATA cable to my PCI SATA controller inside the Mac.

I have this Android crap tablet I was gifted a couple of years ago. My daughter uses it mainly, but I had cause to relocate it the other day. So, I installed an app that allows connections to SMB servers. Since my G3 is sharing this drive via SMB as well as AFP I can connect to it and access files using this tablet.

So, the test was this. What would happen if I tried to play the MKV file on the tablet?

Well, the tablet saw the file right away. And right now I am streaming Doctor Who to the tablet from the G3 - while the laptop in the room above is ALSO copying gigs of files to the same drive!

So, now I know I can use the G3 as a media server as well!

2018-11-07 09.41.29.jpg 2018-11-07 09.41.33.jpg
 
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So, thought I'd poke around the possible today…and came up with another use for my G3 server.

As a test I put a MKV video file on the 2TB shared drive. This drive is a RAID enclosure (2x1TB) connected via an eSATA cable to my PCI SATA controller inside the Mac.

I have this Android crap tablet I was gifted a couple of years ago. My daughter uses it mainly, but I had cause to relocate it the other day. So, I installed an app that allows connections to SMB servers. Since my G3 is sharing this drive via SMB as well as AFP I can connect to it and access files using this tablet.

So, the test was this. What would happen if I tried to play the MKV file on the tablet?

Well, the tablet saw the file right away. And right now I am streaming Doctor Who to the tablet from the G3 - while the laptop in the room above is ALSO copy gigs of files to the same drive!

So, now I know I can use the G3 as a media server as well!

View attachment 802133 View attachment 802134


That’s awesome Erik. I’m inspired to build a similar setup with one of my PMg4s but have yet to get to my computer room to really unpack & organize - still tying up the garage LOL.

Parenthood & full time adulting has sucked up all of my “me time” lol. That’s ok. I figure with all the time I’m enjoying doing the family dad thing, my ppcs are just getting more vintagey & delicious. At some point I’ll have unburied myself enough to do something besides look at them occasionally as I walk by to install a baby gate etc. sorry to derail - again, love the setup. Great job :)
 
That’s awesome Erik. I’m inspired to build a similar setup with one of my PMg4s but have yet to get to my computer room to really unpack & organize - still tying up the garage LOL.

Parenthood & full time adulting has sucked up all of my “me time” lol. That’s ok. I figure with all the time I’m enjoying doing the family dad thing, my ppcs are just getting more vintagey & delicious. At some point I’ll have unburied myself enough to do something besides look at them occasionally as I walk by to install a baby gate etc. sorry to derail - again, love the setup. Great job :)
I was very lucky to have found the drive enclosure. That's pretty much what enabled this. The enclosure is a PowerPC era enclosure so it fits right in. I bought WD Red NAS/Server drives and was even luckier there as the price was good and they were brand new at the time. About a year old now.

It's been a wonderful set up over the last year.

I get it as far as kids though. My kids are 10 and 15 now, but they were small once.
 
So finally got the El Capitan MBP to backup to a sparse disk image sitting on the G3's RAID drive. There's some quirks. It's not automatic for one and apparently I have to use SMB and not AFP.

But hey, an OS X 10.11 Intel Mac is backing up to a OS X 10.4 G3!

Unfortunately, the last holdout (my Snow Leopard MBP) does not have tmutil.
 
I don't know. Part of me would still prefer a Xserve G4 or G5. It'd be my 180,000 decibel crown jewel.

That type of power is unnecessary for a file server. A G3 is more than enough power for that. Xserve's are for when you need a server for computing work. File serving doesn't even really need a computer at all. Hence NAS's.
 
The last domino fell into place today. Been struggling with this for a year or more, but that's because the SIMPLE solution was the one I tried LAST!

I have been trying and trying to get my Snow Leopard MBP to backup to the RAID on my server. Every time it has failed for one reason or another. But today it occured to me…ALL those times I have been mounting the RAID over AFP (Apple File Protocol) and NOT SMB!

Now, because this RAID is attached to a 10.4 server it will not allow TM on the MBP to create the sparsebundle it needs. After going around and around with it today, it occured to me to just have the MBP start the backup to my Quad (running Leopard). That way it would create the sparsebundle. I could then quit the backup, turn off TM, move the sparsebundle over to the RAID and then connect via SMB and then select the RAID and start the backup.

Voila, it worked!

Apparently, Snow Leopard and above wants SMB and not AFP for Time Machine backups! Duh!!!!

Youngren3.png
 
The last domino fell into place today. Been struggling with this for a year or more, but that's because the SIMPLE solution was the one I tried LAST!

I have been trying and trying to get my Snow Leopard MBP to backup to the RAID on my server. Every time it has failed for one reason or another. But today it occured to me…ALL those times I have been mounting the RAID over AFP (Apple File Protocol) and NOT SMB!

Now, because this RAID is attached to a 10.4 server it will not allow TM on the MBP to create the sparsebundle it needs. After going around and around with it today, it occured to me to just have the MBP start the backup to my Quad (running Leopard). That way it would create the sparsebundle. I could then quit the backup, turn off TM, move the sparsebundle over to the RAID and then connect via SMB and then select the RAID and start the backup.

Voila, it worked!

Apparently, Snow Leopard and above wants SMB and not AFP for Time Machine backups! Duh!!!!

View attachment 806959

Nice workaround. I seem to recall having a similar issue, but in reverse, when backing up my Leopard PowerPCs to a Time machine drive which is connected to my Mac Pro (El Cap).

The Leopard Macs wouldn’t allow time machine backups to the drive if I connected over SMB (or didn’t specify a protocol i.e Connect to Server: “hostname.local”). So, in the case of backing up the older machines to the more recent Mac OS, I needed to connect as “afp://hostname.local”. AFP also needed to be enabled on the El Cap client in Sharing preferences.
 
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The best solution is often the simplest one. But trial and error is also good... as it helps you understand how things work in different situations.
Yeah, I just take longer than most people I guess, LOL.

My server was up and running with the RAID sometime around August or September 2017. I even copied over the damn sparsebundle for the MBP that was on one of my Quad's drives. I had been using AFP for TM backups to the Quad.

So it never occurred to me until yesterday to use SMB. Never mind, it's an Intel Mac…INTEL Mac!!! Should have figured it out!

The only issue is that because SMB is blocked by most ISPs (including mine) there is no backing up over the internet like with my PowerPC Macs.
 
It occured to me that I failed to mention one other thing.

I have a Thermaltake BlacX dual SATA drive dock that I've used with my Quicksilver and my Quad. At some point in the last few months I got an eSATA cable for it (it has eSATA) and connected it to my server.

It has USB 2.0, but the server only has USB 1.0 and putting in a 2.0 card will be more work than I wish to take on. So eSATA with the existing SATA PCI card inside works for me. The only catch is that I only get one drive slot. The second slot does not seem to work.

In any case, here is my 1TB WD Green drive connected to my server. That makes one 2TB RAID and on 1TB storage drive.

2019-01-20 12.15.26.jpg 2019-01-20 12.15.57.jpg
 
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How does that work? If I could serve files without needing some kind of computer to do the 'serving' that would be great...
Network Attached Storage (NAS).

NAS are hardrives with firmware that allow them to be shared on a network. You plug the device into your network and the firmware gets an IP address. You then connect (usually via SMB) to that IP adress and the NAS mounts as a drive on your computer.

You can also cheat by putting a bare drive in a USB drive case and plugging the USB cable into your router. Using your router you enable file sharing for that device and then connect (again, usually SMB) to your router to mount the drive.

This is an entirely different thing than using a server. A server allows you to control access as well as provides other things. A NAS simply shares itself on the network and anyone that knows the IP address can connect to it and use it. Some vendors offer limited control, but that's not usually the case.
 
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Network Attached Storage (NAS).

NAS are hardrives with firmware that allow them to be shared on a network. You plug the device into your network and the firmware gets an IP address. You then connect (usually via SMB) to that IP adress and the NAS mounts as a drive on your computer.

You can also cheat by putting a bare drive in a USB drive case and plugging the USB cable into your router. Using your router you enable file sharing for that device and then connect (again, usually SMB) to your router to mount the drive.

This is an entirely different thing than using a server. A server allows you to control access as well as provides other things. A NAS simply shares itself on the network and anyone that knows the IP address can connect to it and use it. Some vendors offer limited control, but that's not usually the case.
If you get something like a synology NAS it will act as a server. Can host VPN, webpages, file sharing, email, etc. Allows you to control access.
 
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It occured to me that I failed to mention one other thing.

I have a Thermaltake BlacX dual SATA drive dock that I've used with my Quicksilver and my Quad. At some point in the last few months I got an eSATA cable for it (it has eSATA) and connected it to my server.

It has USB 2.0, but the server only has USB 1.0 and putting in a 2.0 card will be more work than I wish to take on. So eSATA with the existing SATA PCI card inside works for me. The only catch is that I only get one drive slot. The second slot does not seem to work.

In any case, here is my 1TB WD Green drive connected to my server. That makes one 2TB RAID and on 1TB storage drive.

View attachment 816637 View attachment 816638

I have the same drive dock, but I can't remember ever buying it, much less why. I really ought to put it to use somehow.
 
I have the same drive dock, but I can't remember ever buying it, much less why. I really ought to put it to use somehow.
I bought mine for TM backups.

I started off with two USB 2.0 cases for spare drives. Those died. Then the replacement cases I bought for them shorted out so I had to send those back. Rather than constantly opening cases a friend mentioned one of these so I looked it up and got it cheap on eBay.

That gave me two drives connected to my QS for TM backups and so the QS was handling that from all my Macs for a while. Then the got handed off to the G5. But the major problem with these and USB is that the drives tend to disconnect.

Since USB 1.0 is too slow on the G3 and I didn't want to try and find a USB 2.0 card only to be limited by the PCI bus, I went and got an eSATA cable.

LOL! Now there are no disconnects, but I only get one drive slot! Go figure. I put my WD Green drive in it with the intention for it to store stuff I need to get to quickly but don't access constantly.
 
I wonder if seeing one drive only is due to the driver/kext that supports the e-sata/sata card. Iirc there's something called port multiplier mode that allows e-sata/sata to support multiple drives, without it you see one.

saw something similar with an si3132 card a few years back.
 
I wonder if seeing one drive only is due to the driver/kext that supports the e-sata/sata card. Iirc there's something called port multiplier mode that allows e-sata/sata to support multiple drives, without it you see one.

saw something similar with an si3132 card a few years back.
Hmm…thanks. I may have to track that down.

I stopped looking into it for some reason, but I don't recall now what that was.
 
Continuing my server saga, I relocated the media library for my iTunes folder onto my server RAID today.

My server is running iTunes 4.0 so that the library may be shared across the internet (or at home) with other 4.0 iTunes Macs. That would be my Quad, my A1013 and my SL MBP (which can still run 4.0).

An alias now points iTunes 4.0 on the server to the media folder on the RAID.

But that leaves out my 15" MBP and my PC which are running later versions of iTunes and cannot understand 4.0's sharing. So, I redirected both of the media locations on these computers to the media folder on the RAID drive. Fortunately, both of these maintain their own iTunes database and did NOT try to update the music which would have wrecked things for the 4.0 database.

It does mean now that if I add music to the library on the server I have to add it to the others, but I was doing that anyway. However, I can now continue to share the library in 4.0 to other PowerPC Macs while still being able to use it on my PC and my later MBP. And my music library is now in one central location - on the server.

The PC automatically uploads any changes in it's iTunes library to Google Play Music so there is that as well.

I know I'm late to the party on people sharing the same iTunes lib on a NAS (or shared drive) but I got there. :)
 
Continuing my server saga, I relocated the media library for my iTunes folder onto my server RAID today.

My server is running iTunes 4.0 so that the library may be shared across the internet (or at home) with other 4.0 iTunes Macs. That would be my Quad, my A1013 and my SL MBP (which can still run 4.0).

An alias now points iTunes 4.0 on the server to the media folder on the RAID.

But that leaves out my 15" MBP and my PC which are running later versions of iTunes and cannot understand 4.0's sharing. So, I redirected both of the media locations on these computers to the media folder on the RAID drive. Fortunately, both of these maintain their own iTunes database and did NOT try to update the music which would have wrecked things for the 4.0 database.

It does mean now that if I add music to the library on the server I have to add it to the others, but I was doing that anyway. However, I can now continue to share the library in 4.0 to other PowerPC Macs while still being able to use it on my PC and my later MBP. And my music library is now in one central location - on the server.

The PC automatically uploads any changes in it's iTunes library to Google Play Music so there is that as well.

I know I'm late to the party on people sharing the same iTunes lib on a NAS (or shared drive) but I got there. :)
I may has asked this already, but how do Play Counts work on a shared iTunes library (notably on two or more computers running iTunes 4.0)? Does each computer have its own settings and play counts? Or is it saved on the server's library preferences and distributed to any connected?
 
I may has asked this already, but how do Play Counts work on a shared iTunes library (notably on two or more computers running iTunes 4.0)? Does each computer have its own settings and play counts? Or is it saved on the server's library preferences and distributed to any connected?
I believe it's saved to each individual library. I will have to check on that for you later though.

I don't have a ready answer for you because it's something I've never paid too much attention to. I tend to test iTunes setups a lot so any particular song sees a bunch of plays that are simply because I'm trying to see if the thing works.
 
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