Shake for OS X

[varta123]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Intense new hardware coming

Originally posted by iGAV


We have a Shake user on the boards...... totally cool......

As I have no experience of using Shake........ is it really as groovey as it sounds??? Also what's it like to use??? and will I be able to figure out and enjoy it like I do Combustion???

From a dedicated Combustion user......

Yes, I earn my money with shake

I like it very much, because it is not like combustion (or lets say its not like combustion 1) It's completely node tree based and does not use the "layer" concept of combustion or after effects. You have a big tree with lots of nodes, where each node does a specific task (color correction, layering, filter, ...). You have always access to each node and parameter.

Very important thing: shake is more like a script language. It started as a command line tool and later they added the GUI. That makes it very flexible: you can link each parameter to another with expressions (for example you can use tracking data to manipulate the Brightness if you want). And it is very easy to write macros for your personal needs.

Next very important feature is its ability to work in float mode. Normally you have 8 and 16 bit, Shake can handle 32 bit (per channel) as well. That means that your value range is not limited to the range from 0 to 1, but you have values higher than 1 and lower than 0. Thats very useful for complex color corrections and when you work with film.

Hope that explains some aspects. Ask me if you want to know more!

 

[ibjoshua]

Originally posted by arn

Well, don't be too sure about that... What was the retail price of Shake before the Apple buyout? Apple lowered the price for the Mac version... but kept the Linux/Windows versions the same price.

yeah. how many of you guys didn't read the original post?

i'd also say that apple have probably assessed the situation and decided that they can support OSX users at a lower cost and they've decided to pass this saving on as an incentive to switch.

 

[thedude]

-------okay, we should all get something straight. This program will not run on a desktop machine. about the only thing you could do with this program, even with the top of the line PowrMac, is view the "About Shake" window. As a matter of fact, I would be extremely suprised if this program would even boot up with less than 2 gigs of RAM. And that's still really, REALLY cutting it close.

This program has to be run on an Xserve cluster. No less than 2 dual-proc. configs maxed out with RAM. Period.

Compositing on an iMac...*snicker*..give me a break. ------

Um, no. It'll run fine on a PC with 512M ram, and a dual xeon p3 at 500mhz.

Give me Tremor!

 

[Scottgfx]

Originally posted by redAPPLE


is that a fact?

really?

i have never used after effects, 'coz i didn't know, what i could do with it.

that's really cool to know...

Yeah, whatever.

 

[iGav]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Intense new hardware coming

Originally posted by varta123


Yes, I earn my money with shake

I like it very much, because it is not like combustion (or lets say its not like combustion 1) It's completely node tree based and does not use the "layer" concept of combustion or after effects. You have a big tree with lots of nodes, where each node does a specific task (color correction, layering, filter, ...). You have always access to each node and parameter.

Very important thing: shake is more like a script language. It started as a command line tool and later they added the GUI. That makes it very flexible: you can link each parameter to another with expressions (for example you can use tracking data to manipulate the Brightness if you want). And it is very easy to write macros for your personal needs.

Next very important feature is its ability to work in float mode. Normally you have 8 and 16 bit, Shake can handle 32 bit (per channel) as well. That means that your value range is not limited to the range from 0 to 1, but you have values higher than 1 and lower than 0. Thats very useful for complex color corrections and when you work with film.

Hope that explains some aspects. Ask me if you want to know more!

Sounds cool....... I get the whole node idea.....

What's the scripting like??? is it based on an existing language or unigue to Shake?? so I take it that you can script your own unique 'Expressions' as well as modify existing ones with little difficulty then?

Can't wait to see a demo of this package in action..... I'm really hoping that Apple Uk might be putting on some seminars so I can have a moochy......

Cheers for your answers by the way!! Muchly appreciated......!!

 

[MacArtist]

Shake...

low to mid-range compositing apps:
Commotion Pro 4: $995;
After Effects: $649 Standard version $1499 Production Bundle;

mid to high-end compositing apps:
Combustion: $4995;
Digital Fusion: $4,995;

high to uber high-end compositing apps:
Shake: $4,950 Mac OS X, $9,900 other platforms
Nuke: will be @ $10,000 when released
Flame & Inferno: @ $100-200k depending on configuration

some typical new workstations for use with Shake:
SGI Fuel workstation: $11,495 for base configuration includes a 500MHz R14000A MIPS

Dell Precision 340: @$1500 1.7 P4/Linux/256MB/40GB/Quatro EX 32MB/no monitor
Dell Precision 540: @$2600 1.8 Xeon/linux/256MB/40GB/Quatro 900XGL 128MB/no monitor

Power Mac D1GHz: $3250 2x1GHz G4/OS X/512MB/80GB/Geforce4 Ti 128MB/no monitor

The previous is just a sampling of several compositing apps, their prices, and target markets, as well as a few current system prices.

For those of you who are complaining that this won't run on your iBook, go and get After Effects standard, it'll do more than you'll probably ever need it to do. Shake is aimed at the Feature Film industry and those who make their money from producing film and video. It is not intended for those of you who find it fun two make an iMovie of your friends. Maybe Apple will be nice enough to put together a nice little iComposite or something but don't expect it do even a 10th of what Shake can do.

As for new hardware from Apple, we all know it's coming. So be patient, Apple will catch up soon. Remember that Apple doesn't make the chips so we have to rely om Motorolla to get it in gear. As for the other parts of a Power Mac, I think that they are hindered by the limitations of the chip.

 

[nanumac]

Hard to learn?

Hello varta123

Nice to see (win)shake users on the board.

One question: How hard would it be to learn shake from scratch? I have used after effects for a while in our film/video production company. But now we are now considering shake, just curious about the learning curve.
javascript:smilie('')

 

[varta123]

Re: Hard to learn?

Originally posted by nanumac
Hello varta123

Nice to see (win)shake users on the board.

One question: How hard would it be to learn shake from scratch? I have used after effects for a while in our film/video production company. But now we are now considering shake, just curious about the learning curve.
javascript:smilie('')

Yes, I'm a win-shaker at my job But its good to have a Mac at home, its always fun to come home to a nice system

About your question: the learning depends on how flexible you are in switching to this node tree based working in comparison to the layer based of AE. If you are, its not that difficult (for me, it works exactly like the way I am thinking about compositing, so it was very easy). If you are really happy with the layer concept, it could be hard.
Maybe you know the book "The art and science of digital compositing"? It's not about shake, but it explains compositing almost like shake works. This book is really good for every compositor!

 

[varta123]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Intense new hardware coming

Originally posted by iGAV


What's the scripting like??? is it based on an existing language or unigue to Shake?? so I take it that you can script your own unique 'Expressions' as well as modify existing ones with little difficulty then?

Can't wait to see a demo of this package in action..... I'm really hoping that Apple Uk might be putting on some seminars so I can have a moochy......

I can't tell you exactly if the language is based on an existing language because I'm not a programmer. But I think its similar to C and has a lot of functions that every modern language has.

You have several possibilites of using this script language: the easiest way is to use expressions in the GUI. You can link parameters of different nodes with expressions (that could look like "Move2D2.xScale=sin(2*Move2D1.yScale@@time-1)" ). Second way is by doing a script macro which is a cleartext file that contains some nodes and commands.
If you want to create complex plugins which are also render expensive, you can use a SDK to create compiled plugins. These are running faster than the normal macros.

Hope that answers your question!?

Abraham

 

[Q-bert]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Intense new hardware coming

Originally posted by varta123


Yes, I earn my money with shake

I like it very much, because it is not like combustion (or lets say its not like combustion 1)

I have used both Combustion and Shake, and a lot of what is in Shake is also in Combustion 2. It has a real node tree not like the one in After Effects, much better than that, and it also works in float color space, as well as 8 and 16 bit. It doesn't have expressions or scripting, though, Shake is much better in that area.

But, Shake has paint, but it's not very good, Combustion's paint is a lot better. Plus Combustion has a cool particle system that they bought from Illusion, it's really great if you have a good graphics card.

 

[primalman]

with the cost for the OS X version half

with the cost for the OS X version half of the others, you can buy Shake, a PM and a 22" Cinema for the Windoze version cost. I thin kthis is an effort to drive SW and HW sales together.

 

[thedude]

As far as learning shake, it isn't all that different in CONCEPT
than any other comp program. Wanna put something on top of something else? Create an over node and attach them. Again, it's about the concepts. Now if you're one of those AE filter nuts that wouldn't know additive from multiply, then you'll have a hard time with it. But if you understand how it works, then it's just finding the right buttons. (granted the buttons will look a lot nicer in osX!)

 

[Dignan]

Stupid question-

What makes shake so good that it goes beyond the rest? I know nothing about these types of programs. anyone drop a few basics on why its the best?

 

[sentinal]

what makes Shake so good?

Originally posted by Dignan
Stupid question-

What makes shake so good that it goes beyond the rest? I know nothing about these types of programs. anyone drop a few basics on why its the best?

It's fast- really fast.

it's fully programmable- any function can be linked to any other function with simple expressions- and you can wrap any math functions you need into your expressions.

it works in floating point- 32 bits per channel- not constrained to zero to one or zero to 255 like an eight or 16 bit packages, which makes it perfect for compositing CGI.

 

[sentinal]

Re: Re: Hard to learn?

Originally posted by varta123


Yes, I'm a win-shaker at my job But its good to have a Mac at home, its always fun to come home to a nice system

About your question: the learning depends on how flexible you are in switching to this node tree based working in comparison to the layer based of AE. If you are, its not that difficult (for me, it works exactly like the way I am thinking about compositing, so it was very easy). If you are really happy with the layer concept, it could be hard.
Maybe you know the book "The art and science of digital compositing"? It's not about shake, but it explains compositing almost like shake works. This book is really good for every compositor!

No accident, since the book was written by one of the lead shake developers.

 

[ricktowers]

Re: Re: Re: Hard to learn?

Originally posted by sentinal


No accident, since the book was written by one of the lead shake developers.

Just to clarify,

Ron Brinkmann (the guy who wrote the book) worked for Nothing Real (Apple now?) not as a developer but more as a consultant, trainer, and documentation guy and all around expert on digital compositing after Shake was developed. He does not write code. The lead developer and creator of Shake is Arnauld who was also one of the principals of Nothing Real.

 

[748s]

Originally posted by thedude
-------okay, we should all get something straight. This program will not run on a desktop machine. about the only thing you could do with this program, even with the top of the line PowrMac, is view the "About Shake" window. As a matter of fact, I would be extremely suprised if this program would even boot up with less than 2 gigs of RAM. And that's still really, REALLY cutting it close.

This program has to be run on an Xserve cluster. No less than 2 dual-proc. configs maxed out with RAM. Period.

just got back from the launch of shake in .au
it was running fine on a quicksilver. the rendering was fast as well. one of the people doing the show ran shake from a laptop for tvc work (on a pc laptop, before the osx version was out). so dude, be surprised.

 

[bobbyG4]

shake....

Originally posted by iH8Quark


okay, we should all get something straight. This program will not run on a desktop machine. about the only thing you could do with this program, even with the top of the line PowrMac, is view the "About Shake" window. As a matter of fact, I would be extremely suprised if this program would even boot up with less than 2 gigs of RAM. And that's still really, REALLY cutting it close.

This program has to be run on an Xserve cluster. No less than 2 dual-proc. configs maxed out with RAM. Period.

Compositing on an iMac...*snicker*..give me a break.

Do you people even remotely know what you are talking about?

I dont understand why so many people are posting, that have NO idea!
Shake is a composition package (pretty High End), It WILL run on a 'normal' desktop machine. It doesnt need Quad processors! It doesnt need a XServe cluster.
Of course, the more powerful the machine, the better it will run.
I work with film and video, and in my home studio i use a G4, FCP and AE for compsition. In House we use fcp, and also AVID and discreet products (which cost considerably more than shake!)
The target users are not really home users. Although shake will run on a modern g4 desktop without any problems. The main reason for it not being targeted toward the 'home' user, is that it is more productive to use it using clusters. And not many home users have clusters..........
But of course, it would work!

BTW, SG is going down..... down to chinatown. When Apple get sorted, which should be some time in the near future......