Should Apple make a deal for Mac games with Microsoft or Sony?

[Irishman]

Because VAC is a joke, and I had no idea Epic had an anti cheat. Inherent incompatibility? No, but it’s easier to sneak kernel level anti-cheat into Windows than a unix derived OS. Likewise with DRM

Denuvo, Vanguard, battleye, and Ricochet. And yes, in my opinion it does go too far. But that’s beside the point.

I just wanted to revisit your quote, to which I had replied above: "And this also doesn’t account for commonly used DRM and Anti-Cheat software being only compatible with windows."

Soooo, what are your sources? And, separate question - how is VAC being a joke a problem specific to MacOS and not Windows?

Back over to you.

 

[JMacHack]

I just wanted to revisit your quote, to which I had replied above: "And this also doesn’t account for commonly used DRM and Anti-Cheat software being only compatible with windows."

I answered your question. “Denuvo, BattlEye, Ricochet and Vanguard. I double checked their own websites before I posted in case I was wrong (which I was about Easy Anti-Cheat).

And, separate question - how is VAC being a joke a problem specific to MacOS and not Windows?

Not so much a platform specific problem but easily discounted for sake of argument. VAC is cross platform yes, but unused outside of Valve games and is ridiculously easy to circumvent. Hardly relevant to the core issue, which is “Why more games are not on Mac?”

 

[Imhotep397]

I outlined the exact scenario to what Apple can expect “getting into gaming” in the second post in this thread.

There is zero benefit to Apple, and the gaming crowd doesn’t want Apple. Not a single person stands to benefit from Apple trying gaming, besides maybe a few whiners in this thread.

Honestly, even if you discount the benefit of games the number of 3D FX artists that actually make the games and VFX for movies not feeling that they're forced off the platform because Apple never keeps up it's 3D performance with the state of the industry would be worth atleast as much as the video editing market is Apple and probably significantly more.

 

[Imhotep397]

I answered your question. “Denuvo, BattlEye, Ricochet and Vanguard. I double checked their own websites before I posted in case I was wrong (which I was about Easy Anti-Cheat).

Not so much a platform specific problem but easily discounted for sake of argument. VAC is cross platform yes, but unused outside of Valve games and is ridiculously easy to circumvent. Hardly relevant to the core issue, which is “Why more games are not on Mac?”

How do you even view this as a valid problem at this point? Why would you think if there was actual money to be made with actual games on actual Macs DRM makers would be unwilling to port their DRM software to Mac games? I don't even think there's much OS specific code in those.

 

[JMacHack]

How do you even view this as a valid problem at this point? Why would you think if there was actual money to be made with actual games on actual Macs DRM makers would be unwilling to port their DRM software to Mac games?

There’s no money to be made, please read the posts I’ve made.

I don't even think there's much OS specific code in those.

1. Unless you have access to their code, your “guess” is as good as mine. And considering the programs in question end with the filename “.dll” I’m gonna say it’s os-specific.

2. I’ve stated that Windows has easier access to kernel level through user space than MacOS or Linux. That’s the reason. So there is, in fact OS specific code.

Unless you believe that they’re just holding back trivial changes for ***** n giggles.

 

[JMacHack]

Honestly, even if you discount the benefit of games the number of 3D FX artists that actually make the games and VFX for movies not feeling that they're forced off the platform because Apple never keeps up it's 3D performance with the state of the industry would be worth atleast as much as the video editing market is Apple and probably significantly more.

Which is why Apple’s investing in BLENDER and not video games. Because 3Dfx uses actual 3D modeling programs like Blender, Maya, etc. Not video game engines.

 

[diamond.g]

Which is why Apple’s investing in BLENDER and not video games. Because 3Dfx uses actual 3D modeling programs like Blender, Maya, etc. Not video game engines.

So Epic was lying when they said the Mandalorian used Unreal Engine for the show?

 

[Ethosik]

Don't know but not sure it matters. The general gaming market is big -- that I know. There may not be a lot of Mac users interested in playing AAA games on a Mac because, well, you know, it's not possible to do so.

Well some of the biggest games do already exist on Macs - League of Legends, Minecraft, WoW.

 

[ian87w]

The problem with Microsoft is that Microsoft has its own interest, to push its own gaming services. Apple likely doesn't want this.

Trying to woo in the traditional AAA game devs to make games for the mac won't work so much as the mac is such a minority in marketshare, and most macs on the market are crappy intel integrated graphics.

Currently, imo the best channel for gaming on the mac is, unfortunately, via iOS. iOS is a sizeable marketshare in mobile, and the performance of even the 6S (A9) is very good for gaming (compared to most macs with intel integrated graphics). Imo what Apple should do is go and encourage those mobile game developers to also support the mac/Apple Silicon. The transition would be easier for the developers, and the performance expectation would be higher than the general intel macs.

 

[Ethosik]

1. Game devs (bigger game devs especially) flat out don’t care about MacOS. This should be readily apparent by now.

As a game developer, I have a variation of your #1 item here.

As an indie developer, I want to maximize my profits and the amount of reach I can get with my game when it releases. So that is the only reason I am developing on Windows since I have a target audience of around high 70s or even 80% marketshare in the desktop marketplace. As my game currently exists, any and all Macs can run it like butter. It performs like Factorio, Stardew Valley and Terraria if you want to know the kind of performance it is looking at.

Heck my game runs fine on a very very VERY old Windows system running Intel integrated graphics....yes integrated graphics! But Windows Marketshare is the deciding factor for the amount of effort I am placing on macOS (none right now).

 

[Ethosik]

Reality: Apple spends a ****tillion money on a studio and releases some well polished, fun titles that nobody plays because the core audience isn’t going to go out and spend $600 absolute minimum to play a handful of games at best. Moreover, sales of Macs specifically FOR this Apple exclusive game wouldn’t see any significant uptick in sales, and certainly not enough to justify the studio acquisition alone. Ignoring the costs of developing a AAA blockbuster game.

Wanted to also point this out specifically. This is COMPLETELY true. With Windows, I immediately have access to my 400+ games in my Steam library (yes I have over 400 games on Steam that are Windows only). And some games are from 2003 that still run well without any hacks or tweaks on my Windows 11 install. So getting a $600 Mac minimum for only a handful of games is crazy.

 

[JMacHack]

So Epic was lying when they said the Mandalorian used Unreal Engine for the show?

Unreal already runs on Mac.

 

[diamond.g]

Unreal already runs on Mac.

Doesn't the apps you mentioned already run on Mac as well?

 

[diamond.g]

As a game developer, I have a variation of your #1 item here.

As an indie developer, I want to maximize my profits and the amount of reach I can get with my game when it releases. So that is the only reason I am developing on Windows since I have a target audience of around high 70s or even 80% marketshare in the desktop marketplace. As my game currently exists, any and all Macs can run it like butter. It performs like Factorio, Stardew Valley and Terraria if you want to know the kind of performance it is looking at.

Heck my game runs fine on a very very VERY old Windows system running Intel integrated graphics....yes integrated graphics! But Windows Marketshare is the deciding factor for the amount of effort I am placing on macOS (none right now).

Do you have a calculation on how much it would cost you to enable macOS support (seems like you already have it running) vs your expected ROI for doing so?

You don't think you are leaving money on the table (from macOS users) by not having a Mac version?

 

[Ethosik]

Do you have a calculation on how much it would cost you to enable macOS support (seems like you already have it running) vs your expected ROI for doing so?

You don't think you are leaving money on the table (from macOS users) by not having a Mac version?

Its running, but hasn't been fully QA tested. No I do not feel I am leaving money on the table for a mac version compared to Windows. If I am it is a very very very very very small percentage as most of my sales will be Windows based anyway. The full round of QA testing vs the potential sales for macOS does not lead to a good monetary choice. And having it delay the Windows release will not be a good idea either.

 

[JMacHack]

Doesn't the apps you mentioned already run on Mac as well?

I’m clearly not communicating correctly.

Yes, unreal, unity, and many game engines do run on Mac.

As well as many other 3D studio programs.

Apple Silicon is quite capable already, and by supporting Blender behind the scenes, Apple is making a push towards 3D artist progams.

However, this doesn’t necessarily translate towards game development because of other factors.

It is a flase equivalence to assume that because 3D modeling software works well on Apple Silicon, that it’s also simple to make games compatible for it.

 

[JMacHack]

Its running, but hasn't been fully QA tested. No I do not feel I am leaving money on the table for a mac version compared to Windows. If I am it is a very very very very very small percentage as most of my sales will be Windows based anyway. The full round of QA testing vs the potential sales for macOS does not lead to a good monetary choice. And having it delay the Windows release will not be a good idea either.

I believe two other users here have stated essentially the same point. (I believe it was grumpycoder and xwhiplash)

For some reason other users seem to ignore these posts.

 

[JMacHack]

Post in thread 'Steam Deck: The First Hands-On With Valve’s Handheld Gaming PC'
https://forums.macrumors.com/thread...lves-handheld-gaming-pc.2304373/post-30902338

Maflynn posted this news in another thread which corroborates my point about anti cheat software compatibility.

 

[diamond.g]

I believe two other users here have stated essentially the same point. (I believe it was grumpycoder and xwhiplash)

For some reason other users seem to ignore these posts.

I haven't ignored them, it would be cool to see how much money Feral Interactive makes from mac users on their ports of games. It seems like if it were not worth it they would have stopped (Aspyr seems to have not done any macOS games since 2020).

Maybe I should say interesting instead of cool. I know they won't say (proprietary info and all that).

 

[JMacHack]

I haven't ignored them, it would be cool to see how much money Feral Interactive makes from mac users on their ports of games. It seems like if it were not worth it they would have stopped (Aspyr seems to have not done any macOS games since 2020).

Maybe I should say interesting instead of cool. I know they won't say (proprietary info and all that).

That’s a good question and I’d also like to see that answer. But looking at the ports they seem to come out a year or two after the initial release (and that also excludes many of the AAA titles that are often the subject of these threads).

Maybe it’s just to boost sales after the initial six month period where sales are greatest.

 

[Irishman]

Its running, but hasn't been fully QA tested. No I do not feel I am leaving money on the table for a mac version compared to Windows. If I am it is a very very very very very small percentage as most of my sales will be Windows based anyway. The full round of QA testing vs the potential sales for macOS does not lead to a good monetary choice. And having it delay the Windows release will not be a good idea either.

Why are you posting in a Mac gaming forum, then, if you’re so down on Mac gaming?

You’re literally a meme!

 

[Ethosik]

Why are you posting in a Mac gaming forum, then, if you’re so down on Mac gaming?

You’re literally a meme!

Oh for the love of.....So nobody can have rational discussions anymore? I am on this site because I spend $30,000+ on Apple devices over the last 10 years. And as a game developer, I have a certain view on gaming on macOS. Sorry, I guess as a developer my view is pointless then? I will leave this site now thank you.

 

[diamond.g]

That’s a good question and I’d also like to see that answer. But looking at the ports they seem to come out a year or two after the initial release (and that also excludes many of the AAA titles that are often the subject of these threads).

Maybe it’s just to boost sales after the initial six month period where sales are greatest.

I wonder if that is because the "AAA" games devs/publishers are not coming to them asking for a port. Or they are not going to the publisher/dev to see if they are interested?

 

[GrumpyCoder]

Why would you think if there was actual money to be made with actual games on actual Macs DRM makers would be unwilling to port their DRM software to Mac games? I don't even think there's much OS specific code in those.

Think again...

We have not yet been engaged by an organization expressing interest in native anti-cheat support for Linux. Once there is demand, we’d have no hesitation to take on that task. It’s worth noting that we’ve had anti-cheat technology on consoles for many years now. Our experience with Linux-like environments on the Nintendo Switch and Sony PlayStation 4 & 5 indicates that effective native Linux anti-cheat would require a from-the-ground-up effort and not just a port. Denuvo Anti-Cheat is heavily dependent on hardware security features which makes it fairly kernel-agnostic, so it’s just a matter of ‘when’ not ‘if’. Our best bang-for-the-buck in the short term is Proton.

 

[JMacHack]

Oh for the love of.....So nobody can have rational discussions anymore? I am on this site because I spend $30,000+ on Apple devices over the last 10 years. And as a game developer, I have a certain view on gaming on macOS. Sorry, I guess as a developer my view is pointless then? I will leave this site now thank you.

Ignore him, people seem to get irrational over gaming on Mac (well gaming in general)