Your only opinion is that developing a game on Mac is pointless for you and by extrapolation, pointless for every developer. That doesn't make your opinion any more rational than mine.
When was the last time you played a game on a Mac?
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Should Apple make a deal for Mac games with Microsoft or Sony?
- Thread starter Bodhitree
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Your only opinion is that developing a game on Mac is pointless for you and by extrapolation, pointless for every developer. That doesn't make your opinion any more rational than mine.
When was the last time you played a game on a Mac?
When was the last time you made a game on a Mac?
His opinion is arguably more valid than yours being that he makes games.
I'm trying to understand what his opinions are informed by, you know, by asking questions.
It would seem that his successful Mac game dev experience is exactly the same as mine - zero.
Do you have a point? And are you speaking for Ethosik now?
I’m flabbergasted that somehow (by your assertion) the opinion of people that actively make video games and have given a straight answer to your question as to why more games are not on MacOS, somehow have as much sway as people who simply consume games and willfully ignore any answers that don’t suit your narrative.
I’m not allowed to be brutally honest without being banned, so I’m gonna be as polite as possible:
You are willfully ignoring the reality at hand: Big title games don’t come to MacOS because it’s not a relevant market, not relevant to games companies or even individuals that make games, or even Apple for that matter. As has been asserted by many posts in this very thread and others offering compelling reasons and evidence.
I’m not speaking for Ethosik, but commenting on the situation that you discounted his statements (which were very relevant given that he makes friggin games) simply because they were “negative” towards gaming on the Mac.
Why bother making any game for MacOS if there is no ROI or the ROI is so poor?
I said it in my original post - Operating System marketshare. All my time and dedication is going to the biggest environment I can get from a customer base perspective, and that is Windows. Spending weeks or a month doing full QA testing, while delaying my Windows release even further is not a good idea because I will not get EVERY SINGLE mac customer and even if I did, the marketshare is not enough to be worth it.
There are third party publishers. I don't think Square Enix is actually porting Tomb Raider games to Mac, they use a third party to do the port while Square Enix focuses on newer titles. Even some indie games - like Stardew Valley - was ported to macOS after it was exclusive to Windows for some time. Which could VERY WELL happen to my game in a few years, but for now, the focus is entirely on Windows. And the reason is purely marketshare and only that reason.
It must suck to have to cater to an OS that you hate just to put food on the table.
They didn’t Feral did. But if Mac gaming isn’t a place to make money then how has Feral Interactive stayed open for as long as it has?
I don't hate Windows. Its still the best for gaming and Visual Studio. Everything else I do on my Mac though from making the assets for my game (music and video too not just graphics). I like Linux too, its what is running my NAS. They all have their advantages!
Well that is precisely why it is outsourced. And I don't know how many employees Feral has, but I doubt it has the same amount of employees as Square Enix does. So less employees means they need less money to stay alive. And looking at their website, looks like they don't have good web developers as it looks like a late 90s website! They also have some job postings still up that expired a year ago. So I don't think they are a very large company.
Accusing me of having a "narrative" implies I'm not being sincere, or that you can read my mind and know better than I do what I mean to say. Neither is true. If I have any narrative at all, it's that it must be okay for me to be positive and optimistic about Mac gaming. ESPECIALLY on this forum. Does my expectation strike you as unreasonable or bizarre?
I'm just trying to understand what has you this worked up, so that you believe that only being brutally honest without being banned is impossible for you.
I know that you believe you're expressing the reality. However, making assertions or repeating them, as though you've made a compelling case for your claim, does not fortify your claim. You've just repeated it without the evidence part.
True or false - Mac gaming marketshare can only stay its current size or shrink.
True or false - The statement "Apple doesn't get AAA gaming" is a truism.
Not a trick question - what was the last MacOS game you played, and how long ago was that?
Given the reality of the market and the statements by game developers on this forum, yes, it does strike me as unreasonable.
I’d probably break another rule by commenting on the moderation, but many times I’ve apparently crossed the line in my statements.
I’m not worked up, but I’m beyond confused as to why anyone would discount testimony from people who actually make games because they’re “negative.”
The only reasonable conclusion I can come to in that situation is that the “discounter” isn’t willing to acknowledge the asserted fact.
Okay, let me be 100% clear.
Claim: “games don’t come to Mac because of developer unwillingness to make it to the platform.
Evidence: Statements by game developers across multiple “Mac gaming” threads regarding tools not working, time commitment, and marketshare issues.
Feel free to discount the following, but I believe these are “proof in the pudding” evidence:
1. MacOS and iOS share nearly identical codebases, with many of the most popular games in the world available on iOS, yet not on MacOS.
2. The most popular and growing method of DRM and Anti-Cheat run at kernel level, something easier to do with windows than unix-derived platforms.
False*
*I say “false” because the issue is more nuanced than can be answered by a simple true or false question. In my case, I do not believe the future is predictable, and to say with 100% confidence that the status quo will not change is a fallacy.
However, I would say that barring some unforseeable event, the status quo is unlikely to change.
True*
*I’m sure someone at the c level has come to the same conclusion I have, that the issue is nigh insurmountable, but until evidence of that is apparent it’s simpler to assume that they don’t “get” AAA gaming.
The best “strategy” that the people at Apple have likely come to, is to make iOS and MacOS as close as possible to develop for and make the best machines they can, and hope that developers will make the jump from iOS to MacOS.
Whether you find any of this cause to be optimistic is none of my business, but looking at the situation and comments from devs, I can only be pessimistic about the future of gaming on Mac.
There are multiple problems with bringing Microsoft into a partnership. First, Microsoft has a much larger market share with Windows compared to Mac. Even if we add in iPhones & iPads, it's still a smaller market, I would think. I might be wrong.
Even then, Microsoft uses DirectX, while Apple uses Metal. So you either have to write every game twice (once for Metal, once for DirectX), or write in one language and add a wrapper so it works in the other OS, meaning less performance. And since Microsoft makes Windows & DirectX, that means the Mac/iPad version will have the performance hit version.
Even then, Microsoft uses DirectX, while Apple uses Metal. So you either have to write every game twice (once for Metal, once for DirectX), or write in one language and add a wrapper so it works in the other OS, meaning less performance. And since Microsoft makes Windows & DirectX, that means the Mac/iPad version will have the performance hit version.
Stop parroting this, it hasn’t been true since game engines were a thing. Unless you’re writing specific engine code for every game (not typical at all), making a game in an engine that supports both will function on both.
Now, this is true if you’re writing an engine, which for example the Frostbite engine doesn’t support Mac, (maybe IDtech5 too, I don’t remember).
But if you’re using Unity, Unreal, or Godot for example, they have Metal compatibility, which means that a game doesn’t have to be rewritten for a different platform.
Do you know what the market share is today between the two? I've heard in the past (some decade+ ago), it was about Windows 92%, MacOS 8%. My most recent knowledge was around Windows 88%, MacOS 12%, but even that was years back.
You’re doing it again, man. Repeating a claim as though that the act of repetition alone is the evidence I asked for. It’s not the same.
Remember how we talked about how evidence is constituted of links to documents and articles? Something more than your agreement with one developer - Ethosik - because it rings true to you.
I can’t reason you out of a situation that you didn’t reason yourself into.
Your “proof in the pudding “ do not meet that standard of evidence, much less the proof that you want them to.
All I can do for you is to strongly suggest that you pump the brakes and reconsider how you’re judging me and how you’re misframing what I’ve said to you.
How about this? Agree to disagree?
1. I have much better uses of my time than to try and dig up scholarly articles about Macs and gaming, assuming they exist, which I’m certain they don’t.
2. This is an absurdly high burden of proof for this argument. Which I believe, is intentional.
I knew that they’d be discounted by you, I decided to insert them for any onlookers to get a clearer picture of the situation.
I apologize if I’m missing your argument or intentions. But I cannot see how you’re arguing in good faith here.
Somehow I doubt this will be the last time this topic is brought up, and I don’t see any situation where we agree. But sure, truce for now.
Factorio, Stardew Valley and Terraria are the last ones I have played. From a latest game release perspective, I played Borderlands 3 for a bit a year or so ago.
Now the M1 is in the iPad Air, Apple's platform must be starting to become a more interesting proposition for game studios. They can now target a much larger and growing installed base of Macs and iPads with capable performance, rather than just the tiny sliver of Macs with dGPUs previously.
Should Apple make a deal for Mac games with Microsoft or Sony?
As a game developer, I have a variation of your #1 item here. As an indie developer, I want to maximize my profits and the amount of reach I can get with my game when it releases. So that is the only reason I am developing on Windows since I have a target audience of around high 70s or even 80%...
forums.macrumors.com
To quote specifically:
So that is the only reason I am developing on Windows since I have a target audience of around high 70s or even 80% marketshare in the desktop marketplace.
They would just target iOS (like they have been doing) and still ignore MacOS.