All iPads Should the iPad become a Mac Replacement?

[bcortens]

Again, you have inserted yourself into an argument between two others that you plainly didn't bother to read. I don't know what point you're trying to make, but it has nothing to do with the argument. It's kind of amazing that you come in here with this attitude and make these claims when they're actually irrelevant to the argument you butted into.



There was a wonderful breakdown of the things Apple had to do to the A12Z this in one of the iPad threads a while back. I would bother to find it for you if you didn't have this attitude.



Did I say it wasn't on the A14? No, I said it wasn't on the A12Z. But since you claim that, do you actually know that the A14 contains Rosetta 2 accelerators on the chip? Or are you just claiming that out of thin air?



They added extra hardware to the chip to implement the kind of memory swap a desktop environment requires. I never said it didn't implement a swap file.

I reacted to a very specific part of your post - mostly because I generally don’t buy Apple’s marketing trying to claim that this isn’t an evolution of the AX series, a claim you repeated. Yes the rest of your argument had nothing to do with that but that doesn’t matter.

Yes, there are many things Apple did to make the M1 mac capable, yes, but those things aren’t an example of revolution. Apple’s marketing wants us to believe that they made these chips almost from scratch and that these are magical and new because that helps sell Macs Interview with Apple Execs

They talk about the M1 being a superset of A14 which I think is a good way to look at it. They made changes but the topology of the chip, the elements on the chip, are almost all the same between the M series and the AX series, Apple had large shared caches well before the M series.

I don’t know if it is on the A14 and you don’t know that it isn’t, however I find it unlikely that, whatever they claim, that Apple bothered to remove the silicon from the A14, I expect it to be either inaccessible or fused off but I sincerely doubt they made a special cores for the two chips.

What hardware does a desktop memory swap environment require that iOS doing memory swap (restricted to the OS) does not require?

Edit: My main issue with what you said after the initial post I quoted and which makes me highly skeptical of your claims that Apple made revolution changes is the idea that there is special RAM that is somehow desktop RAM. Apple has never used what is traditionally thought of as ”desktop” memory, modular DDR DIMMS with their M series of chips, instead they use the LPDDR in the M series, the same kind of memory that exists and has existed for some time in the A series. They doubled the bandwidth of the memory controller going from A12X to M1 but that doesn’t mean they used some special desktop class memory.

 

[Unregistered 4U]

Why does it have to be one or the other take over? Why can’t both exist and even have overlaps of features and usage?

In the end, one or the other will take over. The Apple II, in its time, was the bright and shining future of Apple Computer. Another computer was released that had overlaps of some features and usage… and one eventually took over.

People want to think that what happened to the Apple II won’t happen to their platform of choice.

 

[teh_hunterer]

I reacted to a very specific part of your post - mostly because I generally don’t buy Apple’s marketing trying to claim that this isn’t an evolution of the AX series, a claim you repeated. Yes the rest of your argument had nothing to do with that but that doesn’t matter.

That's funny, because I never claimed that. I don't even think that in the first place.

What hardware does a desktop memory swap environment require that iOS doing memory swap (restricted to the OS) does not require?

Whatever hardware they bolted on to the A12Z developer kit that the standard A12Z didn't have. There isn't a lot of discussion on how exactly the DTK worked, but there is a short outline from Tobybrut that explains it somewhat:

"A-series has no virtualization built in because it was never needed in iOS/iPadOS until Stage Manager. They cobbled together a development kit using the A12Z because the M1 didn't exist yet. They had to use all sorts of kluges and co-processors to manage virtual memory, and even with 16GB, ran atrociously bad. It's a system that would never have been shipped, so you can't use a crap developer system as a model for A12Z virtualization. Anything the M1 could do that the A12Z couldn't had to be offloaded to other processors in that dev kit.

People make the bad assumption that a computer is nothing more than a CPU, RAM, and a graphics card. Apple essentially had to emulate the presence of a chipset (e.g. Northbridge and Southbridge) that would normally accompany an Intel/AMD processor on that dev kit. All that chipset logic was built directly into the M1 and later SoC's and is absent from the A-series chips.

How Apple kluged virtual memory, we don't know, but it certainly runs worse than dedicated hardware, which is why SM is limited to only half of what the M1's can do."

Edit: My main issue with what you said after the initial post I quoted and which makes me highly skeptical of your claims that Apple made revolution changes is the idea that there is special RAM that is somehow desktop RAM. Apple has never used what is traditionally thought of as ”desktop” memory, modular DDR DIMMS with their M series of chips, instead they use the LPDDR in the M series, the same kind of memory that exists and has existed for some time in the A series. They doubled the bandwidth of the memory controller going from A12X to M1 but that doesn’t mean they used some special desktop class memory.

I think you misinterpreted the original post of mine so hard that you are now having to put words in my mouth to justify your interpretation. I never claimed the DIMMS were different. 4GB of RAM is not desktop class, but 8GB or 16GB is.

What I was saying in my original posts was that just because Apple silicon originated in mobile devices, doesn't mean the Macs are missing out on anything - Apple put any specific silicon into the M1/M2 that Macs required. I was actually highlighting that there isn't much difference in the first place, not saying that M1 is some amazing jump from the A13/A14 before it. That's why I've found this so bewildering.

 

[bcortens]

That's funny, because I never claimed that. I don't even think that in the first place.



Whatever hardware they bolted on to the A12Z developer kit that the standard A12Z didn't have. There isn't a lot of discussion on how exactly the DTK worked, but there is a short outline from Tobybrut that explains it somewhat:

"A-series has no virtualization built in because it was never needed in iOS/iPadOS until Stage Manager. They cobbled together a development kit using the A12Z because the M1 didn't exist yet. They had to use all sorts of kluges and co-processors to manage virtual memory, and even with 16GB, ran atrociously bad. It's a system that would never have been shipped, so you can't use a crap developer system as a model for A12Z virtualization. Anything the M1 could do that the A12Z couldn't had to be offloaded to other processors in that dev kit.

People make the bad assumption that a computer is nothing more than a CPU, RAM, and a graphics card. Apple essentially had to emulate the presence of a chipset (e.g. Northbridge and Southbridge) that would normally accompany an Intel/AMD processor on that dev kit. All that chipset logic was built directly into the M1 and later SoC's and is absent from the A-series chips.

How Apple kluged virtual memory, we don't know, but it certainly runs worse than dedicated hardware, which is why SM is limited to only half of what the M1's can do."



I think you misinterpreted the original post of mine so hard that you are now having to put words in my mouth to justify your interpretation. I never claimed the DIMMS were different. 4GB of RAM is not desktop class, but 8GB or 16GB is.

What I was saying in my original posts was that just because Apple silicon originated in mobile devices, doesn't mean the Macs are missing out on anything - Apple put any specific silicon into the M1/M2 that Macs required. I was actually highlighting that there isn't much difference in the first place, not saying that M1 is some amazing jump from the A13/A14 before it. That's why I've found this so bewildering.

You’re right, I did take that out of context, I can understand how this would be rather bewildering now… my apologies.

 

[teh_hunterer]

You’re right, I did take that out of context, I can understand how this would be rather bewildering now… my apologies.

No worries, I probably got a bit too snarky in there as well, sorry.

 

[heretiq]

You’re right, I did take that out of context, I can understand how this would be rather bewildering now… my apologies.

No worries, I probably got a bit too snarky in there as well, sorry.

Love this! Real, courageous, courteous and gracious conversation. Thanks for the excellent example @bcortens and @teh_hunterer 🙏🏽

 

[eltoslightfoot]

Love this! Real, courageous, courteous and gracious conversation. Thanks for the excellent example @bcortens and @teh_hunterer 🙏🏽

Agree! I read this exchange was wondering if they forgot where they were.

 

[heretiq]

The main problem for me is Apple doesn't really make an ultraportable computer anymore. You used to have the 2lb Macbook. Now the closest thing you have to that is an 11" iPad + Magic Keyboard coming in at 2.4lbs. It's heavier, yet less capable. I don't necessarily expect Apple to solve this problem my way, but I do want them to do something.

@teh_hunterer , admittedly off-topic; but what are your thoughts on the 15” MacBook Air? At 3.3 pounds, it’s a ways apart from the 2lb MacBook you referenced, but I’m curious about your thoughts on how the 15” Air stacks up against the Mac ultraportable you imagine. Thoughts? 🤔

 

[teh_hunterer]

@teh_hunterer , admittedly off-topic; but what are your thoughts on the 15” MacBook Air? At 3.3 pounds, it’s a ways apart from the 2lb MacBook you referenced, but I’m curious about your thoughts on how the 15” Air stacks up against the Mac ultraportable you imagine. Thoughts? 🤔

I think it's an excellent form factor. For 15" it seems to be a good weight to screen size ratio.

It kind of illustrates that if they can do a 15" laptop at 3.3lbs, they can probably do a 12.5" laptop that's very, very portable.

My only problem with the 15" is lack of promotion. I just can't bring myself to go back to 60hz.

 

[heretiq]

I think it's an excellent form factor. For 15" it seems to be a good weight to screen size ratio.

It kind of illustrates that if they can do a 15" laptop at 3.3lbs, they can probably do a 12.5" laptop that's very, very portable.

My only problem with the 15" is lack of promotion. I just can't bring myself to go back to 60hz.

Yes, it does provide a great example of what is possible with Apple Silicon and I can definitely see the appeal of a reborn, AS-powered 12.5” MacBook Air — which I think would be an instant hit and very appealing to many who are purchasing the iPad for light weight and portability.

I went to the Apple Store yesterday to check out the 15” Air. I was impressed: Excellent screen size, lightweight, and very balanced weight distribution. The display quality is really nice, but like you I’ve become accustomed to ProMotion (largely through heavy use of my iPad Pro, and to a lesser extent, my 16” MacBook Pro which is often connected to a 32” 60Hz Dell monitor). The Air is very appealing, but the gating item for me is GPU performance — I need something close to the M1 Max 32 core GPU performance. I know that’s a lot to expect, but I’m hoping that an 15” M3 Air can come close. 🙏🏽

 

[startergo]

Very interesting @startergo . The screenshots are intriguing. The 2.6 App Store rating is not a good sign, but definitely looking forward to seeing your experience with Merge VM Pro for iPad.

Ok the developer has updated the application and I can boot Windows XP and Windows 7 on the iPad Pro. Windows 10 and 11 can’t boot yet.

 

[heretiq]

Ok the developer has updated the application and I can boot Windows XP and Windows 7 on the iPad Pro. Windows 10 and 11 can’t boot yet.

Thanks for the update @startergo . This is intriguing. Is it usable? Are you able to do anything for example load IE and browse? Also, how’s the UX — are you able to navigate the OS with taps and the iPad soft keyboard or do you need to use an external mouse and keyboard?

 

[dumastudetto]

iPad Pro is already a Mac replacement for many, many people who are doing their most important and productive work with iPadOS.

 

[startergo]

Thanks for the update @startergo . This is intriguing. Is it usable? Are you able to do anything for example load IE and browse? Also, how’s the UX — are you able to navigate the OS with taps and the iPad soft keyboard or do you need to use an external mouse and keyboard?

It is usable in WinXP. I can use internet and it is surprisingly fast. I will test Windows 7 later. You can use the Apple Pen and it is precise.

 

[adamlbiscuit]

To me, the key to enjoying iPad is to appreciate what it is, and not what you think it should be.

I have an M1 iPad Pro, as well as an M1 MacBook Air. In effect, they’re the exact same computer.

Despite this I can run software, such as video game emulation software, on the MBA, that cannot run on the iPad. Why? Just because.

Now I won’t deny that’s annoying, but when I start doing digital art on the iPad and forget about the things I cannot do due to iPadOS limitations, I continue to be amazed and ultimately satisfied with what the iPad offers. That is, experiences that cannot be replicated on MacBook Air due to the physical form factor.

Those who spend their time wishing the iPad would become a Mac replacement are in for a rough time. That’s ultimately because the product they want already exists, but they want this other product, based on a totally different design philosophy, to be that product. Apple are trying to please that audience, but as Stage Manager and it’s tepid reception will attest, it’s a bit like trying to fit a round peg in a square hole.

The key is choosing the right tool for the job. I do appreciate not everyone can have both like I do, but if you have a clear use case you’ll know whether a Mac or an iPad is best for you.

 

[eltoslightfoot]

Ok the developer has updated the application and I can boot Windows XP and Windows 7 on the iPad Pro. Windows 10 and 11 can’t boot yet.

The weird thing is the dev's website doesn't even function?

 

[Ctrlos]

To answer the OP the iPad already is a Mac replacement if you have between £300 and £800 to spend on an Apple computer. This is the iPads entire reason to exist: Apples computing Line for people who don’t need a full laptop or desktop.

 

[Zest28]

It already is. I can log into my Windows servers from the iPad and then I'm running a full blown windows environment

 

[startergo]

The weird thing is the dev's website doesn't even function?

Not sure what do you mean by this? This is the website:

https://mvm.mergesoftcorp.com/

 

[eltoslightfoot]

Not sure what do you mean by this? This is the website:

https://mvm.mergesoftcorp.com/

Ah it's back up today! Good!

So...how well does it work for Windows 10? That is a steep price for an app if one is not sure it will work.

 

[startergo]

Ah it's back up today! Good!

So...how well does it work for Windows 10? That is a steep price for an app if one is not sure it will work.

I can’t get windows 10 to work. I already asked Apple for refund in the past and they refunded it. After I saw the app was updated I paid again to test it.

 

[ericwn]

iPad Pro is already a Mac replacement for many, many people who are doing their most important and productive work with iPadOS.

And for way more users it’s probably the other way round.

 

[h.gilbert]

iPad Pro is already a Mac replacement for many, many people who are doing their most important and productive work with iPadOS.

Is that a direct quote from Apple?

 

[ericwn]

Is that a direct quote from Apple?

At least directly from that parallel dimension their marketing team works in. A further look into some users’ posting history is eye opening at times.

 

[dontwalkhand]

My Mac is used for highly productive work sessions. My iPad has become my laptop replacement thanks to its portability and light weight. My MacBook has stayed at home and occasionally comes with me to a coffee shop. My iPad on the other hand comes with me everywhere.