Simply Put, Too Much

[ericgtr12]

And my question is why should he be allowed to?

I cannot see that a computer forum is an appropriate place to use coarse and crude and vulgar language, irrespective of whether it is masquerading as "humour".

And if you cannot express yourself without recourse to the use of such language in everyday life, then either your vocabulary is lacking at a fundamental level, or you like to behave in a boorish and coarse and crude and vulgar manner.

There is a place - and there are places - where the use of such vocabulary may be considered appropriate - the battlefield, the football pitch, perhaps the pub, to name a few - but I cannot envisage any context where the use of such language is appropriate on a forum to discuss computers and tech.

Well, what one finds humorous, someone else might find vulgar and I would argue that it's highly subjective. There are plenty of decent people who use foul language. When people are forced into using prudish language because they may offend someone it creates the exact sort of environment we see here with post after post by many people are genuinely good but have spoken out, yet are treated like children for not conforming to the MR standard.

I'll just say that I get their mods here are busy full time playing word-cops and they likely have a staff forum full of posts about people like me, or many of the others who have posted their grievances. But MR is asking for this with such heavy handed moderation so I have little to no sympathy for them in this regard.

 

[Scepticalscribe]

Well, what one finds humorous, someone else might find vulgar and I would argue that it's highly subjective. There are plenty of decent people who use foul language. When people are forced into using prudish language because they may offend someone it creates the exact sort of environment we see here with post after post by many people are genuinely good but have spoken out, yet are treated like children for not conforming to the MR standard.

I'll just say that I get their mods here are busy full time playing word-cops and they likely have a staff forum full of posts about people like me, or many of the others who have posted their grievances. But MR is asking for this with such heavy handed moderation so I have little to no sympathy for them in this regard.

Let us agree to differ.

There is "subjective" and there is awareness of context, and setting - the so-called sense of, or awareness of, social calibration, or - put another way - basic consideration for others.

Decent people may indeed know, and use foul language on occasion, but decent people do not use foul language in inappropriate contexts and settings, and, furthermore, expecting basic courtesy and consideration online (and elsewhere) does not equate with "forcing people into prudish language".

Besides, humour is subjective; therefore, unless you know your audience well, or are in the sort of setting (onstage, in a pub, with mates) where this is acceptable, why feel the need to show that your social calibration is so off-key that you don't care where you are, or care so little about how you say what you want to say that you are proudly and utterly indifferent to context and setting?

 

[maflynn]

To me, the bigger question is why he isn't allowed to. Outside of MR people express themselves in many ways, it's what makes us who we are. Sometimes we want to share things that make us happy and express joy, others we want to complain about things that upset us. The staff here just wants you free of passion when typing up your posts if they are at all negative. However, whether it's in the PRSI forum or somewhere else on this site people will show emotion and as a result we see that moderators are constantly struggling to manage it with their restrictive rules.

I have to disagree with the points raised in this post.

First off, as a member (and not moderator) I personally do not want to see crude adolescent type comments, I choose to visit sites that have similar values, and so I avoid sites that have a different philosophy. If crude/vulgar comments are your thing, I'm sure there are other sites that fit your value system better then MR. I'm in no way judging the person. The quality or character of the person is not in question, but rather the content of a given post may run afoul of MacRumor's rules.

Secondly, we moderators are not looking to remove passion from anyone's post. The profanity filter is in place, so the word is asterisked out if he uses the f-bomb, the moderators do not get involved, unless someone tries to circumvent the automated system. I'm not sure why prohibiting explicit/vulgar comments is being equated to lack of passion, or maybe I'm misunderstanding your point. The English language is rich enough to provide a writer the proper tools to communicate his point with passion without needing to resort to explicit, or vulgar language or needing to use body parts to get the point across.

Also you're suggesting the moderation team is censoring people who show passion and that is patently false; If you're happy with an apple product, and post about it, the moderation team does not get involved. If you're incredibly upset about how you were treated by apple and you vent about it, the moderation team does not get involved (provided its on topic, and doesn't violate the rules). I myself have been upset on some things and communicated my frustration, and likewise I've been incredibly happy about some other things. My point is we are not looking to prevent passion or emotion in posts.

 

[ericgtr12]

Let us agree to differ.

Fair enough, we definitely do not see eye to eye on this but I appreciate your take as well.

 

[Scepticalscribe]

.....

First off, as a member (and not moderator) I personally do not want to see crude adolescent type comments,

Agreed.

Neither do I.

Seriously, it should be possible to write about computers (or politics, or sport or any other field of human endeavour) without resorting to crude laddish humour, at its most coarse, crude and vulgar, the sort of vocabulary best left in the adolescent schoolyard.

Secondly, we moderators are not looking to remove passion from anyone's post. The profanity filter is in place, so the word is asterisked out if he uses the f-bomb, the moderators do not get involved, unless someone tries to circumvent the automated system. I'm not sure why prohibiting explicit/vulgar comments is being equated to lack of passion, or maybe I'm misunderstanding your point. The English language is rich enough to provide a writer the proper tools to communicate his point with passion without needing to resort to explicit, or vulgar language or needing to use body parts to get the point across.

Also you're suggesting the moderation team is censoring people who show passion and that is patently false; If you're happy with an apple product, and post about it, the moderation team does not get involved. If you're incredibly upset about how you were treated by apple and you vent about it, the moderation team does not get involved (provided its on topic, and doesn't violate the rules). I myself have been upset on some things and communicated my frustration, and likewise I've been incredibly happy about some other things. My point is we are not looking to prevent passion or emotion in posts.

Again, agreed.

It is entirely possible to show passion - even uninhibited passion - without needing to seek refuge in, and recourse to, vulgar and offensive and crude or coarse language.

 

[ericgtr12]

I have to disagree with the points raised in this post.

First off, as a member (and not moderator) I personally do not want to see crude adolescent type comments, I choose to visit sites that have similar values, and so I avoid sites that have a different philosophy. If crude/vulgar comments are your thing, I'm sure there are other sites that fit your value system better then MR. I'm in no way judging the person. The quality or character of the person is not in question, but rather the content of a given post may run afoul of MacRumor's rules.

I don't think I said crude comments were "my thing", I implied that there are times that they will happen and the moderators here micromanage thing to the extent that everyone is afraid to say the slightest thing out of line.

Secondly, we moderators are not looking to remove passion from anyone's post. The profanity filter is in place, so the word is asterisked out if he uses the f-bomb, the moderators do not get involved, unless someone tries to circumvent the automated system. I'm not sure why prohibiting explicit/vulgar comments is being equated to lack of passion, or maybe I'm misunderstanding your point. The English language is rich enough to provide a writer the proper tools to communicate his point with passion without needing to resort to explicit, or vulgar language or needing to use body parts to get the point across.

Also you're suggesting the moderation team is censoring people who show passion and that is patently false; If you're happy with an apple product, and post about it, the moderation team does not get involved. If you're incredibly upset about how you were treated by apple and you vent about it, the moderation team does not get involved (provided its on topic, and doesn't violate the rules). I myself have been upset on some things and communicated my frustration, and likewise I've been incredibly happy about some other things. My point is we are not looking to prevent passion or emotion in posts.

I absolutely could not disagree with this more. People have different ways of showing passion and are constantly beaten down here as a result of not passing their micro-rules that are often inconsistently moderated. One mod may see a reason to act and another may not, for what's practically the same offense. This creates distrust and it happens on this site regularly, the only real consistency is moderators trying to run this place like some sort of unrealistic dystopian land.

We're not going to agree here. Again, it's your board and if you feel like telling people who don't like the rules to take a hike then it's certainly your prerogative but please don't pretend as if it's not heavily moderated. I've never seen a board this locked down in all my years and looking at the responses on this forum alone it's obvious that I'm not alone.

 

[Scepticalscribe]

I don't think I said crude comments were "my thing", I implied that there are times that they will happen and the moderators here micromanage thing to the extent that everyone is afraid to say the slightest thing out of line.

That tired old abdication argument (it happened, I couldn't help it) for one's actions (or utterances) does not sound any better with repetition.

They only happen because the person who writes (or gives voice to them) allows them to happen, or chooses for them to happen.

And, if one is an adult, with an adult's self-control, reasonably extensive vocabulary, some degree of social calibration, and an awareness of setting and context, there is no reason on earth to use foul language in - or on - a site dedicated to discussing tech and computer.

Not, that is, unless one glories in one's proven power to shock with the use of potty-mouthed language.

Are you seriously attempting to argue that you cannot express wild and passionate enthusiasm without recourse to coarse, crude, foul and vulgar language?

 

[44267547]

”MacRumors is stricter than some other forum sites. This is by design. Our site isn't for everyone. Since your posting habits weren't found to be acceptable at MacRumors, we suggest that you find a site that's more lenient.”

https://macrumors.zendesk.com/hc/en...9-Why-was-my-account-banned-?mobile_site=true

I copy and pasted of the above statement from Macrumors moderation ‘frequently asked question page’, because I think it holds true, and it rightfully should. Some try so hard to get their point across about the moderation staff here, and the same member(s) makes the same ‘Rule break’ over and over, and they’re frustrated with this site, but perhaps MacRumors is not the appropriate ‘Tech site’ for them, as there may be more sites that are more lenient. That said, I mentioned earlier, I think the moderation staff is more than lenient enough by allowing quite a few members to stay a part of the community even after multiple bans and warnings. But if that member can’t learn from the same mistake made repeatedly or doesn’t care to, maybe it’s best to part ways from this site, because not every rule is designed to be changed because ‘You don’t agree with it.’

Think about the degree of how large the site is, and then someone mentioned that this thread is ‘15 pages long’, that’s an extremely small percentage of members who likely have been problematic over the course of time that have an issue with the moderators/rules, when the majority who participate on this site, Never violate a rule, and if they do violate a rule, they learn from it. So it goes back to my original point, if you can’t fix the problem where you’re continually making the same mistake, then you obviously can’t learn from it, then at what point do you say to yourself ‘Maybe there is another site that’s more suitable for my actions.’

 

[Scepticalscribe]

”MacRumors is stricter than some other forum sites. This is by design. Our site isn't for everyone. Since your posting habits weren't found to be acceptable at MacRumors, we suggest that you find a site that's more lenient.”

https://macrumors.zendesk.com/hc/en...9-Why-was-my-account-banned-?mobile_site=true

I copy and pasted of the above statement from Macrumors moderation ‘frequently asked question page’, because I think it holds true, and it rightfully should. Some try so hard to get their point across about the moderation staff here, and the same member(s) makes the same ‘Rule break’ over and over, and they’re frustrated with this site, but perhaps MacRumors is not the appropriate ‘Tech site’ for them, as there may be more sites that are more lenient. That said, I mentioned earlier, I think the moderation staff is more than lenient enough by allowing quite a few members to stay a part of the community even after multiple bans and warnings. But if that member can’t learn from the same mistake made repeatedly or doesn’t care to, maybe it’s best to part ways from this site, because not every rule is designed to be changed because ‘You don’t agree with it.’

Think about the degree of how large the site is, and then someone mentioned that this thread is ‘15 pages long’, that’s an extremely small percentage of members who likely have been problematic over the course of time that have an issue with the moderators/rules, when the majority who participate on this site, Never violate a rule, and if they do violate a rule, they learn from it. So it goes back to my original point, if you can’t fix the problem where you’re continually making the same mistake, then you obviously can’t learn from it, then at what point do you say to yourself ‘Maybe there is another site that’s more suitable for my actions.’

Excellent post, well said, and well argued.

 

[Dranix]

I have to disagree with the points raised in this post.

First off, as a member (and not moderator) I personally do not want to see crude adolescent type comments, I choose to visit sites that have similar values, and so I avoid sites that have a different philosophy. If crude/vulgar comments are your thing, I'm sure there are other sites that fit your value system better then MR. I'm in no way judging the person. The quality or character of the person is not in question, but rather the content of a given post may run afoul of MacRumor's rules.

The problem is that Americans live in a prudish happy care bear bubble in this regard. You consider this rude and crude language - The rest of the world consider it normal use of language...
[doublepost=1546529705][/doublepost]

But why feel the need to express yourself crudely when discussing computers?

Because that example wasn't crude in the slightest. It was perfectly normal language use. The world is not so sissy as are most Americans in this regard. Must be related to the puritan heritage...

 

[sracer]

That tired old abdication argument (it happened, I couldn't help it) for one's actions (or utterances) does not sound any better with repetition.

They only happen because the person who writes (or gives voice to them) allows them to happen, or chooses for them to happen.

And, if one is an adult, with an adult's self-control, reasonably extensive vocabulary, some degree of social calibration, and awareness of setting and context, there is no reason on earth to use foul language in - or on - a site dedicated to discussing tech and computer.

Not, that is, unless one glories in one's proven power to shock with the use of potty-mouthed language.

Are you seriously attempting to argue that you cannot express wild and passionate enthusiasm without recourse to coarse, crude, foul and vulgar language?

I wish I had more than one thumbs up to give to this post.

In my line of work, I need to express zeal and passion without the use of vulgar language. I have in no way felt impeded by the inability to use profanity.

Just as inflation causes one to spend more money to obtain the same product, there is an inflation of sorts with communication.

At one point in time, saying that something was "good" was an acceptable and accurate description of something that is pleasant. But now, things must be "great", "terrific", "awesome", "outstanding" and "good" is viewed as something of a back-handed compliment.

Back in the day, "buzz off" was sufficient to tell someone you were done with them and didn't want to engage any further. But now, "eff off" (fully sounded out) is preferred.

As for whether or not MR should filter that language out or exercise moderator control over such language, I prefer to have that type of language prohibited... but, MR's forum software does a great job of really hiding content from those on the ignore list so I would be fine with simply putting those people on ignore.

 

[maflynn]

The problem is that Americans live in a prudish happy care bear bubble in this regard. You consider this rude and crude language - The rest of the world consider it normal use of language...

I can't answer for the world, but we have administrators and moderators from all over the globe and there is agreement over what is considered crude.

 

[C DM]

The problem is that Americans live in a prudish happy care bear bubble in this regard. You consider this rude and crude language - The rest of the world consider it normal use of language...
[doublepost=1546529705][/doublepost]

Because that example wasn't crude in the slightest. It was perfectly normal language use. The world is not so sissy as are most Americans in this regard. Must be related to the puritan heritage...

Doesn't really matter where you are in the world, there's still a place and a time for things. There's language that someone can use among their friends, language that could be used at work, language that can be used when out in a public venue, etc.

It has pretty much nothing to do with some sort of ethnic type of generalizations. Now, whether one actually understands those type of societal norms and differences, let alone actually cares about them, that's a somewhat different story.

 

[Dranix]

I can't answer for the world, but we have administrators and moderators from all over the globe and there is agreement over what is considered crude.

Well can't understand this then. The countries I know personally all have a "very crude" use of language compared with the standards expected here. These include Germany, Austria, Ireland, Scotland, England, France, Japan. All 7 use way cruder language then the us expects, even Japan - Japanese can be easily very crude and often is.

 

[willmtaylor]

The problem is that Americans live in a prudish happy care bear bubble in this regard. You consider this rude and crude language - The rest of the world consider it normal use of language...
[doublepost=1546529705][/doublepost]

Because that example wasn't crude in the slightest. It was perfectly normal language use. The world is not so sissy as are most Americans in this regard. Must be related to the puritan heritage...

I’ve learned that generally anyone who starts off with, “Americans are/do/live...” and finishes the statement by painting with such a ridiculously large brush, his/her statements should probably not be lent very little credence.

If I begin a statement with, “Well, we know that [all] Germans....” it most likely speaks more to my knowledge (or lack thereof) than theirs.

 

[Dranix]

Doesn't really matter where you are in the world, there's still a place and a time for things. There's language that someone can use among their friends, language that could be used at work, language that can be used when out in a public venue, etc.

It has pretty much nothing to do with some sort of ethnic type of generalizations. Now, whether one actually understands those type of societal norms and differences, let alone actually cares about them, that's a somewhat different story.

So I guess many people would get sick from the language used in German companies... We even have a name for such sophisticated language use: "Stock im Arsch" - translated a stick in the bud. Meaning people who can't relax socially.

 

[willmtaylor]

So I guess many people would get sick from the language used in German companies... We even have a name for such sophisticated language use: "Stock im Arsch" - translated a stick in the bud. Meaning people who can't relax socially.

I’ve always failed to see the “enlightenment” of lacking self-restraint and choosing one’s words with care and creativity.

 

[Dranix]

I’ve always failed to see the “enlightenment” of lacking self-restraint and choosing one’s words with care and creativity.

It's easy - your self restraint is bad for the psyche. Countless studies have shown that crude language help reduce stress.

 

[C DM]

So I guess many people would get sick from the language used in German companies... We even have a name for such sophisticated language use: "Stock im Arsch" - translated a stick in the bud. Meaning people who can't relax socially.

A workplace can also differ from another workplace. Again, it's got basically nothing to do with any type of ethnic generalization, and is really simply about being aware of the environment you are in. Context is basically what matters. It's a fairly straightforward societal construct.

 

[Dranix]

A workplace can also differ from another workplace. Again, it's got basically nothing to do with any type of ethnic generalization, and is really simply about being aware of the environment you are in. Context is basically what matters. It's a fairly straightforward societal construct.

I don't know what differences you mean. i worked in chemical manufacturing and the language use wasn't any different from my time in 2 big German banks and a big Insurance company. Neither is in my current workplace in rubber industry. So what environments would you consider different?

 

[C DM]

I don't know what differences you mean. i worked in chemical manufacturing and the language use wasn't any different from my time in 2 big German banks and a big Insurance company. Neither is in my current workplace in rubber industry. So what environments would you consider different?

All kinds have differences. Are you trying to say that as far as language/decorum/conduct goes that there really isn't anything different when it comes to different environments and different contexts, be they various locations (whether it's work, or a public venue, or something else), groups/organizations, etc.? Reality certainly seems to not only suggest, but demonstrate otherwise.

 

[Dranix]

All kinds have differences. Are you trying to say that as far as language/decorum/conduct goes that there really isn't anything different when it comes to different environments and different contexts, be they various locations (whether it's work, or a public venue, or something else), groups/organizations, etc.? Reality certainly seems to not only suggest, but demonstrate otherwise.

I never found any difference in my 44 years on earth. Perhaps it's different in high society but in normal life of working class there are no differences.

 

[Scepticalscribe]

... We even have a name for such sophisticated language use: "Stock im Arsch" - translated a stick in the bud. Meaning people who can't relax socially.

Being able to use sophisticated language - or express yourself in a subtle and extensive and nuanced vocabulary - does not mean that one is a 'stick in the mud', or unable to relax socially.

Conversely, expressing oneself coarsely does not mean that you are "relaxed socially", just that you choose to disregard social conventions and courtesies, and probably do not view such matters as having any worth, merit or importance.

 

[maflynn]

I never found any difference in my 44 years on earth. Perhaps it's different in high society but in normal life of working class there are no differences.

Its not high society, I'm anything but high society. You seem to associate those people who choose to not use to crude language as prudes, stick in the muds (I'd rather use that term then the literal translation) and those who cannot relax in society.

I would venture a guess based on your posts that you have a bias against people who have a different opinion on how to communicate. Also just because you witness people acting a certain way means it's true for the entire country and/or world. That is, your personal experience does not equate to everyone in the world, such blanket statements are frequently misguided and ill-fitting.

 

[Zepher]

Sadly, there are a few people in the Alternatives area that shouldn't even be on this site as they always cause trouble for those who want to discuss the differences. You bring up some differences and they will make it personal and basically not listen to you and say Apple is junk and Android rules. But no one will ever do anything with them. So they just ruin this site.

Now they say, why are you on a Apple site in the Alternatives section if you don't like Android. I never said that myself, I own both, but they refuse to listen to reality. I really thought I would enjoy this site, but I see we allow a lot of trouble makers to stay here like the ones above. Not worth the trouble being here honestly.

One other thing, so far to what I have noticed, it seems mods do not look carefully into who and why the issue started before blaming people. And probably blaming the wrong person at that. That is what I gather.