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Your signature reads: Overzealous censorship, suppressive acquisitions, overreaching patents, frivolous lawsuits, and obsessive licensing terms for Chinese-made products. Remind me what's so "cool" about Apple again?

Hehe

Overzealous censorship? Wrong
suppressive acquisitions? Wrong again...
Overreaching patents? Umm wrong again.
Frivolous lawsuits? Wow your on a roll - 4 times wrong in a row...can we make it 5...oooo yes i think so...5 it is

Well done Mr D... you really make me smile :)
 
So you are arguing what exactly?

Actually, I wasn't arguing with you at all. I was responding to this:

Ryan, on the other hand, is still stuck on stupid notion that freedom to do stupid things (like allow kids access to porn) is actually freedom. How about freedom FROM things that are harmful?

When people demand freedom from things they find offensive, it gets very tricky VERY quickly. There are people I've met who think Mass Effect is porn. I don't want them deciding what I should be "free" from. Ask Australia how they like their games rating system. Lawmakers like it, because they appeal to the loud mouth voter demographic who got them in office.

Gamers hate it.


Steve and I happen to agree on this issue. Yeah, I just blew your mind. :rolleyes:

Yes, you did blow my mind. I not saying I want a porn app, I'm just wondering why in the world you (or perhaps not you, but definitely RyanArm) think Steve Jobs knows better than you do about what you want.
 
You seem to have left out "IMHO".

You already know it's "IMHO," it's unnecessary word fluff.
You can already. There is the Video app for installing all the video porn you could ever watch on your morning bus trip to work. Then there is the Photos app for installing as many hardcore photos as you wish to view in the bathroom once you're at work on your morning break. Then if you want even more porn on your lunch break, there's the Safari app to download as much porn as your credit card can handle being ripped off for.

ABSOLUTELY NOTHING stopping you from jam-pack cramming your iPad full to the brim with your favourite porn. Your only limitation is the capacity. Dang, Jobs MUST release an iPad with 1TB capacity for all your porn otherwise he's a brutal dictator and it's censorship!!

Tell us again why you need a specific porn app or else it's the end of all freedoms as we know them? Are you an actual porn app developer trying to push your own vested interests here? Because I can't think of any other reason why anyone would actually claim Jobs "needs" to include porn apps.

It's a strawman argument to suggest this is only about porn.
 
And with batteries having a limited number of charge-discharge cycles, who doesn't want their batteries to last longer? Do you want to pay to replace the battery after 18 months? Two years? Three years? Which is best?
As I see it, Adobe has no incentive whatsoever to make flash more efficient. It's like the General Motors of software - still cranking out gas-guzzlers when everyone else wants to go lite. And it can get away with this because it's not a hardware vendor: if Flash trashes your battery prematurely, then it's your problem, not theirs.
Until they feel some pain, nothing will improve.
Pretty much my thoughts.
If we had to do absolutely everything ourselves and make every decision ourselves then we'd still be living in caves.
Nice.

P.S. I'm tired of hearing about kids. Parents are responsible for their own offspring, not me and not Apple. Many of the parents I know had no clue they could even control the content allowed on their gifts to their spoiled offspring from within iTunes itself. In the end it's just a bunch of lazy, ignorant parents trying to pass the buck to everyone but themselves.
So what if you are tired? You are saying that parents must be responsible and less lazy, yet you can't deal with just going and browsing internet for your porn?
Meanwhile the holier than thou moral police don't ever seem to lift a finger to protect the environment or worker rights in China pretty much anything else that doesn't fit their never ending march back to the policies of the 1950's. So much for "Think Different" eh?
Apple having control over their devices is hardly equal to the police. How do you propose that Apple protect the environment and worker rights in China? You think Apple can tell China what to do?

If they (apple) issue a disclaimer that states their view and recommendation against it but still allow it you'll make a lot of people happy. Maybe put something in your Settings that can disable flash for everyone else.
Adobe has to make Flash player more suitable for mobile devs anyway so in time it'll just balance itself out. Look at the 10.1 release.
A disclaimer won't be enough. It would still be up to Apple to deal with the consequences and most of the people out there will still blame it on Apple.
And you can't let Adobe do their thing - we already know what happens - nothing, for a long period of time. Adobe is pretty much dominating the creative segment it works in and if we leave them to decide we will never have a working HTML5 and we will never get rid of Flash (it's a conflict of interest for them).
The 10.1 release comes after the whole debacle, so for me it just shows that Apple did right.
That may be the case, but the web developers of the world are the ones who generally "run" the WWW. So if they are educated properly then they would have to develop around that. Forcing Adobe (or others) to model their programs to meet the dev's needs. Right?
I think the users should run the WWW.
Also, can the w3c regulate what the standards of Flash would have to be? Could they force it on Adobe to make the necessary changes?
I doubt they can. It would be imposing to Adobe how to do their work.

again where does apple ownership of YOUR device end and your ownership begin?? Do you ever own your device if OS level control of it is based on another entity?
You own the device. You don't own their store. It's pretty clear I think. Everybody is talking about control, but Apple is basically omitting features. Would you blame Sony for not having DOF on some of their cameras?
I think another issue is if apple is going to play moral police...
Again with those bad comparisons. The police is for everyone, Apple's products you can decide to buy or not. Is there another police you can choose?
Therefore I believe, in apples case, they should just give access to whatever and let US adult and PARENTS think for ourselves instead of having a corporation do it for us. There may not need to be a store for it specifically but SJ coming out an saying "freedom from porm" its like he is setting moral compass for something he should have VERY little control over after the point of sale.
How are Apple's restrictions not letting you think? Btw, you would be surprised how many people do not want to think.
You have the access to your porn. You just don't have many types of access.

Revolution means freedom? What are they teaching kids nowadays?
I always thought that revolution meant replacement of an established system; a radical and pervasive change; or coming full circle.
Finally some sense. It is Ryan that brought "freedom" in the discussion too and I see Jobs' "Freedom" for battery and "Freedom of porn" as a sarcasm.

You're suggesting that because i don't cut my own hair I shouldn't be responsible for my own moral policing?
Nobody is policing you. Watch all the porn you want on every Apple device. You have access to it.
The App Store doesn't have to host porn. Steve just needs to allow users the right to install what they want. Sideloading apps and allowing Adobe to develop a flash plugin are a start. Computers are an open platform and should be treated as such.
Computers are an open platform? That's whose definition?
You have the right to install what you want. You just can't, because it isn't on the store - but the store is controlled by Apple. Where's the problem? It's not about rights, it's about app/feature availability.
 
Computers are an open platform? That's whose definition?
You have the right to install what you want. You just can't, because it isn't on the store - but the store is controlled by Apple. Where's the problem? It's not about rights, it's about app/feature availability.
You're talking in circles. If Apple allowed one to install what they want independent of the App Store, then there would be no problem. It could be like the desktop OS X platform.
 
You're talking in circles. If Apple allowed one to install what they want independent of the App Store, then there would be no problem. It could be like the desktop OS X platform.

I am really seeing the apps as features - that's my base. Maybe that's just me. You can't say that someone is taking away your freedom or policing, because they are omitting features. It's a common strategy, so their products don't cannibalize each other. Sony's lower-end models lack some features the higher-end models have - are they taking away my freedom or policing? No.
Side-loading - I am not sure the App Store and side-loading can coexist, but that's arguable. I think that side-loading will ultimately kill the App Store which in turn will kill the experience for most of the users out there.
 
Absolute versus relative? Of course there are absolutes. It may be difficult to get agreement on what they are bickering in a forum, but there are absolutes. There are a number reasons the walled garden gets on my nerves but for now I choose to live with it rather than going the Cydia route or switching to an Android device.
The whole idea of the walled garden makes the Apple experience what it is.

The longer it takes, the more solidified SJ becomes in his belief that he "knows all" and "sees all". And that worries me.
While I am in complete agreement with SJ on a great many issues including flash and adult apps, I'm not in agreement with the way he seems to ignore and dismiss any outside input. I am particularly troubled by the way SJ ended the email exchange.
(...)
In reading his exchange with Ryan Tate, it is clear SJ is all about preaching and not about listening.
So you are basing your thoughts on this particular exchange? In this case you are taking things out of context. What outside input is Jobs dismissing here - bashing and insults? He ended the email exchange by answering a person who relentlessly criticized without even trying to make some valid points? If Jobs was answering to some fair, coherent critic I would be worried, but this...?
If SJ is able to listen, the iPad can avoid following it's older sibling, the Newton in being relegated to this kind of gallery someday.
The Newton case is hardly the same as the iPAd's.
 
Maybe this sounds a little retarded, but has anyone questioned the validity of this? As cool as it is (if it's real), is it not possible that Mr. Tate simply pulled this off as a publicity stunt for himself and / or Gawker Media? I understand that he has posted screenshots from Gmail, but that really proves nothing to me.

If it is genuine, I am completely on Jobs' side. If I want porn on my iPad, I can still get it if I want. I don't see anything wrong with Apple approving apps to ensure consumers don't unwittingly download malicious content. iPhone OS will be able to remain malware-free with this model. In addition, I've hated Flash with a passion ever since I became aware of it as a child. It's slow, annoying, and just overall antiquated. Go HTML5! Tate, as many of you have said, sounds like a complete moron. Plus, why let an ad for a consumer product set you off? It's not like it's anything incredibly important.
 
Remember that line from Princess Leia in the front of the Inter Galatic forum when she says something like "there goes the freedom/democracy, under a thunder of applause".

The same thing here: people are stupidly applausing Steve Jobs for having poor rethoric and egoistic line when in fact he gets not so cool at the end of the exchange.

The mere simple good sense won't win here. And in fact it's so cool that Jobs answers to mails in the other hand. In fact i'm gonna write to him right now.
 
Remember that line from Princess Leia in the front of the Inter Galatic forum when she says something like "there goes the freedom/democracy, under a thunder of applause".

The same thing here: people are stupidly applausing Steve Jobs for having poor rethoric and egoistic line when in fact he gets not so cool at the end of the exchange.

The mere simple good sense won't win here. And in fact it's so cool that Jobs answers to mails in the other hand. In fact i'm gonna write to him right now.

I'm thankful I'm not you who thinks this is some Draconian move where we all become slaves.
 
In reading his exchange with Ryan Tate, it is clear SJ is all about preaching and not about listening. Failure to listen is the first step in the great unraveling of any company and hopefully SJ can find enough humility to listen before Android or webOS or Linux or even glacially slow Microsoft comes along and serves him up a whole bakery full of humble pie.

Quite the opposite. Apple did exactly as you prescribe, listening in the early '90s almost led to its unravelling and complete demise. Licensing Mac OS for example. Tear down this walled garden, Mr Gorbapple. After that almighty fubar, they called the preacher in. And haven't listened since.

I find it amazing how much advice and criticism people can have for a successful company with successful products in relation to how they should fix their 'problems' with their successful company and their successful products. It's ironic that it's mostly exactly the same advice and criticism as when Apple was struggling, which in essence amounts to "to be better than everyone else, Apple needs to do what everyone else is doing". I'm very happy as a long time Apple consumer that Steve Jobs does NOT listen to that sort of advice and criticism. I'm not a shareholder, but I assume those whoa are would be even happier still that he doesn't listen.
 
Pray, what should we use for the definition of monopoly than the legal definition document on monopolies for the biggest international trade agreement in the world?

Cite it, please.

Please, feel free to point out where I've ever mentioned anything to do with the share of Android sales.

And feel free to come back and apologise when you fail.

Didn't say you, specifically. Was talking about the argument d'jour that we hear from Apple Haters. I'm sure that, given the opportunity or necessity to support your unsupportable position, you would flip flop to the other side of the argument. But fair enough. You didn't say it this time.

Or I could get my elected representatives to look at legal action to prevent Apple breaking the law. And am doing that.

Phazer

You live in the UK. Do you even know who your elected officials are this morning? And be sure to let me know how that complaint works out, since you have absolutely no basis.
 
Quite the opposite. Apple did exactly as you prescribe, listening in the early '90s almost led to its unravelling and complete demise. Licensing Mac OS for example. Tear down this walled garden, Mr Gorbapple. After that almighty fubar, they called the preacher in. And haven't listened since.

I find it amazing how much advice and criticism people can have for a successful company with successful products in relation to how they should fix their 'problems' with their successful company and their successful products. It's ironic that it's mostly exactly the same advice and criticism as when Apple was struggling, which in essence amounts to "to be better than everyone else, Apple needs to do what everyone else is doing". I'm very happy as a long time Apple consumer that Steve Jobs does NOT listen to that sort of advice and criticism. I'm not a shareholder, but I assume those whoa are would be even happier still that he doesn't listen.

Wow. Very nicely put.
 
I'm of the belief at this point in time that you don't actually know what a strawman argument is.

A strawman argument is when you change the conversation to something more easily refutable in order to make it seem as if you have refuted the original argument. In this case we're talking about Apple opening up the App Store to things it has previously rejected or allowing for sideloading apps, but awmazz changed the argument to Apple allowing pornography in the App Store.

I find it amazing how much advice and criticism people can have for a successful company with successful products in relation to how they should fix their 'problems' with their successful company and their successful products. It's ironic that it's mostly exactly the same advice and criticism as when Apple was struggling, which in essence amounts to "to be better than everyone else, Apple needs to do what everyone else is doing". I'm very happy as a long time Apple consumer that Steve Jobs does NOT listen to that sort of advice and criticism. I'm not a shareholder, but I assume those whoa are would be even happier still that he doesn't listen.

I'm not trying to improve the company, I'm simply suggesting what I would like to see and why I think it's the right thing to do. Something entirely reasonable and something customers should feel comfortable doing.
 
SJ's wouldn't act that way...

I don't believe that was really Jobs, why would he act like a silly teenager who is confused as to what freedom is or how you communicate with others without calling them out on their lack of accomplishments? If it really is Jobs, he's gone eccentric. The PC is dying? What nonsense. For example: take away Mac OS X (you can still sell your hardware, iPod and Pad, just no PC software) and see how your business model works, if that is you Jobs.
 
I think its pretty ironic that the thing that makes Apple different from other companies is the homogeneity of their products, offering consumer a new experience but one with forcefully imposed restrictions. Every other company out there gives consumers as many options as they want. By making these decisions for the consumers, Apple has been able to put together a focused and incredibly polished experience, precisely because hardware is limited and software choices are well defined and locked down. It is a rare example of a company that has enough insight to be able to say no, you don't want this, you want this and have huge success because of how good their ideas are and how well they implement them.
 
I don't believe that was really Jobs, why would he act like a silly teenager who is confused as to what freedom is or how you communicate with others without calling them out on their lack of accomplishments? If it really is Jobs, he's gone eccentric.

I see that as no different to some loud armchair critic hassling a coach or top player of a successful football team and they ask him "who did you say you played for again?". It may be arrogant to say something like that, but no more arrogant than the armchair critic believing he has the right to get in their face in the first place.

This guy Tate wouldn't have even gotten past Bill Gates' secretary's personal assistant's assistant's intern's email junk mail filter, yet here he is at 2am in his loungeroom all liquored up believing he has the right and privilege to tell Steve Jobs how to run his company.
 
A straw man argument is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position. To "attack a straw man" is to create the illusion of having refuted a proposition by substituting a superficially similar proposition (the "straw man"), and refuting it, without ever having actually refuted the original position.

From wikipedia

Isn't that what he said? :confused:

Another site: nizkor.org

The Straw Man fallacy is committed when a person simply ignores a person's actual position and substitutes a distorted, exaggerated or misrepresented version of that position. This sort of "reasoning" has the following pattern:

Person A has position X.
Person B presents position Y (which is a distorted version of X).
Person B attacks position Y.
Therefore X is false/incorrect/flawed.
 
Isn't that what he said? :confused:

Not entirely. A strawman is more than simply "changing the conversation." It's inventing a bogus position for your opponent to more easily attack it.

There have been plenty in this thread indeed. Example:

Commenter A: "I agree with Steve Jobs: Apple should not sell pornography."

Commenter B: "I can't believe you're going to continue to blindly worship Steve Jobs like that." (strawman)

or

"Why don't you value freedom?" (strawman)
 
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