Skyhook's Wi-Fi Location Technology for iPhone/iPod touch

[lazyrighteye]

Great point Rocketman. No it doesn't appear to. So although Skyhook might have good WiFi survey coverage right now, that'll change when everyone throws out their 802.11G router and buys an 802.11N, or sells them on ebay and the APs move all over the place. They will need to survey all over again which I think took them a few years. Where as Navizon is updated continually by the users (windows mobile that is) so has no risk of becomming out of date and accuracy improves over time.

That's really interesting.
What's the point of manually mapping all of these ever changing hot spots?
Would seem Navizon has a good thing going.

Regardless, like many, I eagerly await the launch of Apple's SDK.
I have a feeling were weeks away from not talking about Locate Me or many of the seemingly stop-gap features Apple's been trickling out.

Good fun.

 

[jonathansmith68]

So at first I thought that the "locate me" feature (I'm talking iPod Touch ONLY) would only work when in range of a Skyhook managed access point, but after reading these comments I'm starting to think of the possibility of like some you said "keeping records" of privately ran access points. Is this true? or does it HAVE to be an actual Skyhook AP.

If it does in fact have a database where it will add private access points, I could see this being buggy with people often moving and with mac address spoofing and so on.

Also, if this is true, that it does collect data and throws it all in a database, how do the entries get their in the first place? Do you manually submit data like "Where is the location of the access point?" and it sets that location in it's database? A little clarification (if anyone knows!) would be greatly appreciated!

Lastly, if the last few statements are in fact true, anyone know if there'd be some kind of user agreement you'd have to agree to in order to keep the privacy of those who don't want to be added to this system?





Edit: After actually READING the "howitworks" page, most of my questions were answered, but I'm still unlcear about how new ones are added. Do people have to agree to this? Or is there some software you have to run to register your Access Point?

 

[Trooperof3]

Maybe it's just me, But the Wi-Fi locator worked like twice... other then that it's been completely useless and tells me in can't locate me even if i'm on a wi-fi network

 

[happydude]

with people having problems reading access points from people known to have moved and sending your location read miles from where you actually are, i have a question for people living in cities with municipally owned wifi networks. for example, the city of Chaska, MN has wifi spread out throughout the city. is the locate me feature in a city such as Chaska just ridiculously accurate?

 

[samh004]

It's too bad someone beat me to the punch to drive around Hong Kong and map the networks, then again I'm glad they have as the technology works

 

[kornyboy]

Wirelessly posted (iPhone: Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU like Mac OS X; en) AppleWebKit/420.1 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/3.0 Mobile/4A93 Safari/419.3)

I have found it interesting and useful to an extent. When I'm at home it is not so good but around areas where there are businesses it works pretty well. I think it is ok but obviously not as good as GPS.

 

[tothelimit]

Edit: After actually READING the "howitworks" page, most of my questions were answered, but I'm still unlcear about how new ones are added. Do people have to agree to this? Or is there some software you have to run to register your Access Point?

I don't think new wireless access points would have any effect on this system at all, until skyhook decides to do an update and rescan an area.
The original post states, "While Wi-Fi hotspots are detected based on these signals, no direct connection is made to them." There is no registering, no one connects to your (or anyone else's) access point. They have simply scanned for these signals emitted by routers and such - and have developed a self updating system to map them.

 

[interconnect]

I don't think new wireless access points would have any effect on this system at all, until skyhook decides to do an update and rescan an area.
The original post states, "While Wi-Fi hotspots are detected based on these signals, no direct connection is made to them." There is no registering, no one connects to your (or anyone else's) access point. They have simply scanned for these signals emitted by routers and such - and have developed a self updating system to map them.

the answer to this was already posted earlier...

Skyhook maintains the accuracy of the access point reference database through an ongoing and continuous data monitoring, analysis and collection process. The two main main components are:

1. Automated Self-Healing Network
Each WPS location transaction is initiated with a scan for nearby access points. The resulting access point information is then compared against the central reference network. Known access points (those already in the reference network) are used to calculate the location of the device.

Any access point that is either not in the database or was previously associated with a different geographic location is automatically identified and recorded to the new corresponding calculated location. In this manner, WPS automatically fixes and expands the reference network as it is being used.

 

[jonathansmith68]

I don't think new wireless access points would have any effect on this system at all, until skyhook decides to do an update and rescan an area.
The original post states, "While Wi-Fi hotspots are detected based on these signals, no direct connection is made to them." There is no registering, no one connects to your (or anyone else's) access point. They have simply scanned for these signals emitted by routers and such - and have developed a self updating system to map them.

ahhh, I think I'm starting to understand it a little more! So the fact that no communication is done with the actual access point (protected access points being an excellent example) it has to be rescanned, as you said. So this doesn't sound very "self-healing" at all to me if they (Skyhook) have to manually go back and re-scan the area. And if a user makes a tiny change such as changing the channel it transmits on, I'm guessing this change would make this access point no longer a match?

Lastly, for iPod touch owners, this seems to be not very practical since you'd need at least ONE connection to the internet (an open, non-protected access point) just to access Skyhook's databases, am I correct in thinking this?




Edit: This sounds a little bit more appealing. I hope this is the case. Though this still sucks that you have to be in access of at least ONE open network (for iPod Touch owners), I'm assuming.

the answer to this was already posted earlier...

Skyhook maintains the accuracy of the access point reference database through an ongoing and continuous data monitoring, analysis and collection process. The two main main components are:

1. Automated Self-Healing Network
Each WPS location transaction is initiated with a scan for nearby access points. The resulting access point information is then compared against the central reference network. Known access points (those already in the reference network) are used to calculate the location of the device.

Any access point that is either not in the database or was previously associated with a different geographic location is automatically identified and recorded to the new corresponding calculated location. In this manner, WPS automatically fixes and expands the reference network as it is being used.

 

[notjustjay]

I have a few, varied, thoughts on this. First off, if the $20 upgrade fee includes royalties to Skyhook, then I'd feel a bit better about paying -- why didn't you just say so, Steve?

This is a really ingenious system, but as others have said it will only really work well if the database is kept up to date. Self-healing sounds like an interesting feature, but would only work to an extent, and would lead to accuracy degradation over time. (I used to be at exactly point A, but now all I know is that I'm near points B and C). The model would work better if there was some kind of grassroots movement to get people to submit location updates themselves.

Cataloging seems pretty self-evident. A Skyhook vehicle equipped with a GPS just drives around running a program like MacStumbler. At coordinates (x,y) I receive these wireless signals with these signal strengths. Build up enough points and you're in business.

(Still, it seems kinda creepy that someone out there was driving around my neighborhood and cataloging my wireless network against my location! Here's hoping the Skyhook vehicle wasn't a plain white van...)

 

[tothelimit]

the answer to this was already posted earlier...

oh - i missed that! thank you!

 

[eliotw]

Works in Tokyo...

Pretty amazing that it's working with the NTT WiFi network in Tokyo...more coverage than their website map claims.

 

[ParisParamus]

This is a really ingenious system, but as others have said it will only really work well if the database is kept up to date. Self-healing sounds like an interesting feature, but would only work to an extent, and would lead to accuracy degradation over time.

Not really sure how quickly there would be a degradation: its possible that most wifi routers aren't moved that quickly, or often, and in an urban area, there are so many signals at most locations that the net effect of one signal moving and/or varying in strength is minimal over a considerable span of time.

On the other hand, what I don't get is what about where there are are no routers, say in less populated parts of cities and/or poorer parts of towns and/or in the suburbs, where wifi won't even reach to the street (across the big yard). At that point, how do things work? And on bigger roads? Can someone explain this?

 

[altoption]

Theoretically, they should be able to reconfirm location of any mapped wifi hotspot the same way they locate individual phones, by comparing the hotspot to other known hotspots. With regular and frequent system checks of previously-mapped hotspots, they should be able to keep their system up-to-date. Not sure how they add new hotspots without driving around again, though.

 

[ndheah]

Well considering when I used it last night, said I was about 150 miles away from where I really was made me wonder how accurate this system really is.

 

[Lord Sam]

Almost

But this is not at all perfect, especially in England, even in London. I have never been able to get my location from my ipod touch unless I am connected to a WiFi HotSpot, and so I hope the UK coverage gets here soon. That aside, it's sort of a useless feature, unless you're stranded in Antarctica, or lost at sea, and in that case, I don't think you'll be able to pick up any signals from WiFi connections. Ah well. No-ones perfect. But Apple sure comes darn close.

 

[twoodcc]

pretty cool technology. yeah, this probably has something to do with the iPod Touch fee

 

[alFR]

On the other hand, what I don't get is what about where there are are no routers, say in less populated parts of cities and/or poorer parts of towns and/or in the suburbs, where wifi won't even reach to the street (across the big yard). At that point, how do things work? And on bigger roads? Can someone explain this?

At that point it will fall back on cell tower triangulation, as I believe it says in the article on the front page.

 

[Booga]

Correct their database

My home wireless routers were in their database. And because my old home was closer to the street, the database was never updated with the new location (300 miles away). So I wrote them a little note with my wireless routers MACs and my lat/lon, and they updated it. It's a pretty nifty little service.

 

[dernhelm]

I believe that one of the features of this service is database updates from results of location queries. I'm guessing that this is part of their model - once they have a decent starting point, users will keep the data fresh merely by using the service.

From Skyhook's website

Skyhook maintains the accuracy of the access point reference database through an ongoing and continuous data monitoring, analysis and collection process. The two main main components are:

1. Automated Self-Healing Network
Each WPS location transaction is initiated with a scan for nearby access points. The resulting access point information is then compared against the central reference network. Known access points (those already in the reference network) are used to calculate the location of the device.

Any access point that is either not in the database or was previously associated with a different geographic location is automatically identified and recorded to the new corresponding calculated location. In this manner, WPS automatically fixes and expands the reference network as it is being used.

Maybe so, but it doesn't work very well if that is the case. A buddy of mine used the feature and he was located to his house that he moved out of almost 1.5 years ago. That was apparently the last time SkyTel found his router.

He mailed their tech support, and they manually are correcting their database, but even then it is likely to take a couple of weeks (their estimate). I'm not sure why they don't have a web page where you can submit updates to their DB - seems like it could be useful - but they don't right now. All requests for changes are phone calls and tracking people down.

 

[Nermal]

So I wrote them a little note with my wireless routers MACs and my lat/lon, and they updated it. It's a pretty nifty little service.

Wouldn't it make more sense for them to put a form on their site where you can submit your APs without manually writing an email?

 

[rtdunham]

...the locate me already has issues and it will just grow worse every day unless skyhook routinely does updates....

from Skyhook's website, cited earlier in this thread, in a section on location maintenance:

"Any access point that is either not in the database or was previously associated with a different geographic location is automatically identified and recorded to the new corresponding calculated location. In this manner, WPS automatically fixes and expands the reference network as it is being used.

2. Periodic Rescan
Depending on the aging of the survey data and the density of user-generated updates, Skyhook periodically will rescan entire coverage areas to recalibrate the reference network ensuring performance consistency over time."

 

[pacohaas]

Theoretically, they should be able to reconfirm location of any mapped wifi hotspot the same way they locate individual phones, by comparing the hotspot to other known hotspots. With regular and frequent system checks of previously-mapped hotspots, they should be able to keep their system up-to-date. Not sure how they add new hotspots without driving around again, though.

Yeah, I'd imagine when you use the "locate me" feature, a quick snip of the WiFi signals in your area and their strengths is sent to the server, not only to find your location, but also to add missing or modified AP's to their database. With the cell tower data for iPhone users, the location can be further verified.

 

[NerfYoda]

My home wireless routers were in their database. And because my old home was closer to the street, the database was never updated with the new location (300 miles away). So I wrote them a little note with my wireless routers MACs and my lat/lon, and they updated it. It's a pretty nifty little service.

That's how I did it too. All they keep in their database is lat/lon and the MAC of your access point. I've noticed some flaws in the access points I hang out at, aiso I've been emailing them corrections as I get them.

To get your latitude and longitude head to google maps and put in the address of your access point. After that put the following in your address bar to get your coordinates:

javascript:void(prompt('',gApplication.getMap().getCenter()));

Put in the coordintes back into a google maps search to make sure it's right. I usually have to tweak it a little to get it spot on.

 

[Lord Sam]

Cool

Even after my recent post, I have to agree it is pretty awesome.