Slimmer 13-Inch and 15-Inch MacBook Pros Reportedly in Production

[BeamWalker]

Why would you need to use a USB ethernet adapter on a MBP ? You are talking worst case scenarios.

 

[xxBURT0Nxx]

Why would you need to use a USB ethernet adapter on a MBP ?

they were talking about the *POSSIBLE* removal of the ethernet port on future models of the mbp.

 

[BeamWalker]

This is just not gonna be a common enough problem though. With wifi going as fast as 600 Mbs and thunderbolt Hubs right around the corner - not to mention the already existing TB Display - there are far more important issues than the integration of only 2 USB ports and the inconvenience of using a usb hub in cases like yours.

 

[Macist]

I'd like the optical drive to remain in the MBP line but I'm not going to rant and rave if it goes. I admit that i only use the optical drive once in a blue moon. I can hook up my little-used LaCie DVD burner on the odd occasion I need discs.

I barely use discs at all these days. 90%+ of my clients are happy to get a Dropbox link for large files.

 

[Santabean2000]

I'd like the optical drive to remain in the MBP line but I'm not going to rant and rave if it goes. I admit that i only use the optical drive once in a blue moon. I can hook up my little-used LaCie DVD burner on the odd occasion I need discs.

I barely use discs at all these days. 90%+ of my clients are happy to get a Dropbox link for large files.

Dropbox is great. I use it all day every day. It's what iDisk could/should have been.

 

[strwrsfrk]

Long Argument (Sorry)

I disagree with that logic. By that logic, since *most* professionals don't need high resolution screens, external video connectors, Thunderbolt ports, or higher end graphics chips in their day to day use, then the Macbook Pro ought to be minimalized to what's commonly used by the vast majority of professionals, and they shouldn't do anything to cater to anyone who needs anything more than that. Foolish and shortsighted.

It is quite clear from this thread alone that there are plenty of professionals who use the ODD for daily tasks, many on the road. There are probably just as many who use it for less frequent tasks where having an external drive might be a hinderance, such as watching a DVD on your laptop during a plane trip. There are plenty of NON professionals who use MBPs, like college students, who use it regularly for a wide variety of other tasks. Most software is *still* distributed on optical disk, and the vast majority of MBP users probably use their optical disk at *least* once a month if not more often.

Those naysayers want more battery space, or an extra disk drive, and are therefore happy to tell EVERYONE who needs an ODD for ANY purpose that we can go buy a bulky external ODD and lug it around in our bags. Which is, as noted above, the vast majority of MBP users. Apple will be shooting themselves in the foot if they remove it from the MBP without at least providing it as an option.

Apple is *already* marketing laptops aimed at the mobile professional market who don't need an ODD -- it's called the Macbook Air. Taking the ODD out of the Macbook Pro simply blurs the lines between the two product categories, and makes the MBP less compelling. What they *ought* to be doing isn't removing the ODD, but putting something *better* in, like a Blu-ray drive. IMHO.

Your position is quite reasonable. Most people, I expect, do not begrudge those users who want to keep an optical drive.

There are two distinct arguments your post makes which I would like to address. The first is the claim that "By that logic, since *most* professionals don't need high resolution screens, external video connectors, Thunderbolt ports, or higher end graphics chips in their day to day use, then the Macbook Pro ought to be minimalized to what's commonly used by the vast majority of professionals, and they shouldn't do anything to cater to anyone who needs anything more than that."

My problem with this claim is two-fold. The first is that it is in direct contrast to your other point which is that existing parts should be upgraded. Everything you've mentioned here in rebuttal improves upon necessary hardware, regardless of level of professionalism.
*Screens are obvious, so arbitrarily claiming they should never see updates is fallacious and, in my opinion, a reactionary rebuttal.
*I/O ports are necessary for any number of peripherals which add to the machine's functionality - external ODDs included - and maintaining fast, upgraded I/O ports improves user experience on all levels of professionalism, from more functional devices to faster HDD writes and backups, etc.
*GPUs are used for many tasks for which there is no current reasonable replacement, including high-end gaming, rendering, GPU-assisted computations, etc.
*The ODD end-of-the-line is in sight, and that's Blu-Ray. I agree that if they keep the ODD it should be upgraded (whether it will be is another argument), but functionally and practically speaking, there's nowhere for that particular technology to evolve.

My second issue is regarding the idea that a MacBook Air is a true professional machine. It is not, in the same way that is not a gaming machine. You can utilize it for professional tasks or to play games, sure, and far be it from me to tell anyone what they can or cannot do with their own technology. But it is designed as an ultra-portable. It has excellent power for an ultra-portable, which is one reason they are so appealing, but there are a myriad of professional tasks which cannot be performed efficiently on the Air. These include (much like my earlier GPU argument) 3D imaging, rendering, GPU-assisted programming (which cover many scientific applications), highly-threaded applications (which see 2x more threads on a Pro), desktop-replacement tasks that require multiple high-throughput peripherals and/or multiple monitors, etc.

Carrying or planning to carry an external ODD is indeed a pain. But it's a relatively compact, relatively inexpensive pain. Extra physical storage (HDD, SSD, etc): more expensive. Larger, hi-resolution monitors: more expensive, much larger. Spare batteries: more expensive, larger. Again, it's not a matter of "killing" a "dead" technology. It's cost-benefit analysis, and the trend appears to be moving towards dropping it. And in my experience, that's ultimately a good thing for more than 51% of Apple's user base, a statistic alone which makes it a good decision.

tl;dr Argument against upgrading other hardware reactionary; Apple removing ODD is not "killing" anything but the result of cost-benefit analysis

 

[zgwortz]

My problem with this claim is two-fold. The first is that it is in direct contrast to your other point which is that existing parts should be upgraded.

The paragraph you're commenting on was an extension of *your* logic - that since the ODD isn't used by most professionals on a day to day basis, it should be removed. The idea that something not used by most professionals on a day to day basis should be removed is ridiculous - as pointed out by the paragraph you successfully rebutted. Thank you for agreeing with me that your original point was wrong.

*The ODD end-of-the-line is in sight, and that's Blu-Ray. I agree that if they keep the ODD it should be upgraded (whether it will be is another argument), but functionally and practically speaking, there's nowhere for that particular technology to evolve.

I definitely agree it should be upgraded. I disagree it has nowhere to evolve. Just as DVD wasn't the last stage in optical drives, I strongly suspect Blu-ray will not be the last stage either. The optical disk physical format is too well suited to current needs for both media marketing and long term data storage to go away any time in the next decade, if not longer.

This isn't like when floppy disk drives were phased out -- back at that point, very little new material was being produced for FDDs, and they had stopped being used for backup purposes. They'd already been relegated to SneakerNet use at best, and newer, higher density FDDs were not catching on. So it made perfect sense for them to be phased out.

Optical disks are nowhere near that point -- media and software are still *primarily* distributed on them. They're widely used for long term storage and backup. And Blu-ray has been widely adopted by everyone *except* Apple. So any argument that they are in the same position as FDDs were back when Apple phased them out isn't even close to hitting the mark.

My second issue is regarding the idea that a MacBook Air is a true professional machine. It is not, in the same way that is not a gaming machine. You can utilize it for professional tasks or to play games, sure, and far be it from me to tell anyone what they can or cannot do with their own technology. But it is designed as an ultra-portable. It has excellent power for an ultra-portable, which is one reason they are so appealing, but there are a myriad of professional tasks which cannot be performed efficiently on the Air. These include (much like my earlier GPU argument) 3D imaging, rendering, GPU-assisted programming (which cover many scientific applications), highly-threaded applications (which see 2x more threads on a Pro), desktop-replacement tasks that require multiple high-throughput peripherals and/or multiple monitors, etc.

And you once again make an excellent argument that Apple should not be *removing* features from the MBP - they should be enhancing them.

And in my experience, that's ultimately a good thing for more than 51% of Apple's user base, a statistic alone which makes it a good decision.

I would love to know where you get that statistic. There's *NO* evidence to either side saying how many Apple MBP users would be better off without an ODD. I personally suspect from *my* experience that removing the ODD would be a *bad* thing for much more than half the Apple user base, but there's no statistical proof either way, nor is there any reliable way to get such proof unless Apple produces a MBP where an optical drive is an *option* -- and then they can get hard numbers based on how many people buy it with the optical drive, and how many buy it without.

 

[strwrsfrk]

The paragraph you're commenting on was an extension of *your* logic - that since the ODD isn't used by most professionals on a day to day basis, it should be removed. The idea that something not used by most professionals on a day to day basis should be removed is ridiculous - as pointed out by the paragraph you successfully rebutted. Thank you for agreeing with me that your original point was wrong.

First of all, let's please keep this a civil discussion. I'm attempting to engage you in a debate, not condescend, insult, or belittle your intelligence or position. I would appreciate the same courtesy.

Actually, my point was that your "extension of my logic" claim was fallacious and reactionary. The debate is about a specific technology, the ODD, and how the inclusion or removal of said technology would affect professional users. As a result, your remark was a broad generalization and misinterpretation of my point; my rebuttal paragraph was an attempt to point out that particular fallacy, not one from my initial logic.

I definitely agree it should be upgraded. I disagree it has nowhere to evolve. Just as DVD wasn't the last stage in optical drives, I strongly suspect Blu-ray will not be the last stage either. The optical disk physical format is too well suited to current needs for both media marketing and long term data storage to go away any time in the next decade, if not longer.

This isn't like when floppy disk drives were phased out -- back at that point, very little new material was being produced for FDDs, and they had stopped being used for backup purposes. They'd already been relegated to SneakerNet use at best, and newer, higher density FDDs were not catching on. So it made perfect sense for them to be phased out.

Optical disks are nowhere near that point -- media and software are still *primarily* distributed on them. They're widely used for long term storage and backup. And Blu-ray has been widely adopted by everyone *except* Apple. So any argument that they are in the same position as FDDs were back when Apple phased them out isn't even close to hitting the mark.

This may generally be true. But until backwards-compatible holographic disks (or some other similarly super-dense optical media is developed), the capacity and cost/benefit considerations of platter- or flash-based storage will continue to outpace optical storage in practicality. And even if a DVD-sized disk eventually contains even 2TB of data, the hardware required to read it will take more space than a similarly-sized HDD or SSD.

I agree that software is primarily distributed on disks. Again, the argument is NOT about whether an ODD is useful. It is about its relevance on a portable, professional machine. And in most cases, people are probably not attempting to install new software in their car or on a plane. They are at a desk. Where a small peripheral drive would not be that much of an inconvenience.

And practically speaking, the installation of software is probably not among most professionals' primary workloads. They install software once and use it multiple times. Statistically speaking, even that very relevant, very useful tasks is *required* a very small percentage of the time.

And you once again make an excellent argument that Apple should not be *removing* features from the MBP - they should be enhancing them.

Two responses to this. First, while you can certainly choose to infer your own interpretation of my comments, you have not addressed my point. My point was that people tend to perform jobs and tasks onto machines which - while perhaps capable to a certain degree - are not designed to be used in that way. It is inefficient, like using needle-nose pliers to remove a screw.

The second broader point is that the tasks which a professional machine ARE designed to do can be bolstered by the removal of the ODD. GPUs and CPUs can be improved if thermal dissipation is improved and batteries are larger, storage might go up if there's additional space for a second (possibly a blade) SSD, and a slimmer profile might make it easier and more convenient for professionals to fit this extra power into their luggage.

I would love to know where you get that statistic. There's *NO* evidence to either side saying how many Apple MBP users would be better off without an ODD. I personally suspect from *my* experience that removing the ODD would be a *bad* thing for much more than half the Apple user base, but there's no statistical proof either way, nor is there any reliable way to get such proof unless Apple produces a MBP where an optical drive is an *option* -- and then they can get hard numbers based on how many people buy it with the optical drive, and how many buy it without.

I pretty clearly stated that that number was "in my experience." There's no study or article from which the number was pulled. I've been an IT professional for over 7 years, and IN MY EXPERIENCE the ODD is rarely used in a professional setting.

What you have learned from your own experience is just as valid, and I would never ask you to cite a source. That is ridiculous.

 

[MagnusVonMagnum]

I love my late 2008 MBP. It's VERY thin (any thinner is RETARDED and completley unneccssary. Get a freaking IPAD3 if you want thinner...oh wait it's actually THICKER to provide more advanced features, not removing useful features for THE SOLE REASON OF MAKING IT FRACKING THINNER, which is the WORST possible reason to remove the optical drive, which was already plenty thin.

Now look at all the talk of removing everything from ethernet ports to the ODD and what do you have left? Eh? Now let's see what a REAL Macbook "PRO" has on it:

My 2008 MBP has:

3 USB 2.x ports (not 2) (typically I have a MIDI box connected to one port and a mouse connected to the other while recording and an external non-apple keyboard when docked since Apple keyboard now suck to high heaven)

1 FW 800 port (I use a high speed backup drive here)

1 FW 400 port (whoa, what's this thing? You mean I don't have to use an adapter and daisy-chain to hook up my firewire audio box? Imagine that....)

1 Gigabit Ethernet port (used when docked to transfer HD sized video file encodes to my serve; WiFi doesn't even come CLOSE in the same room as Gigabit. Anyone who thinks WiFi is good enough either doesn't really use their computer or is clueless. When traveling, I often use the Ethernet port for incoming Internet and use the internal WiFi to create my own WiFi network to connect my iPod Touch and other devices to at places that only have Ethernet, which is more common than you might think).

1 Full Size DVI port. I don't need no stinking adapter to connect my MBP to nearly every single monitor on the planet (except ironically, Apple's own newer monitors). A simple DVI to HDMI cable will connect it to any current TV on the planet as well.

1 Express expansion slot. I can plug almost anything into this to add more features to my MBP, from simple SD card readers to USB3 cards to E-Sata cards to external expansion boxes. I could not BELIEVE when Apple traded this extremely useful port for a stinking simple SD slot. THAT is the day I started losing respect for Apple (Non Computers).

They managed to fit ALL those ports on my MBP plus a DVD combo drive plus a battery cover that lets me carry backup battery supplies if I so desire (you're SCREWED on newer models once they run out of power) PLUS it has a matte screen that doesn't blind me with reflections all day long.

Now THAT was a PROFESSIONAL Macbook. It was the same Macbook that ran Windows Vista faster than any PC notebook (non-desktop type) could. Apple was at the top of its game for professional products and then... they switched to coddling PHONE USERS instead of Macintosh computer users. Now everything from all the hardware to the freaking operating system itself is being DUMBED DOWN and limited in options so that all the clueless people who text while driving of the world don't get confused by extra ports and real features.

With my 2008 MBP, I can write my own song with Logic Professional and burn a CD copy on the same machine immediately. Now you'll have to carry an extra drive and pray they don't remove the CD burning features entirely from Logic and iTunes in the future (they wouldn't want you to be confused with something that isn't there on your new machine and hey, who can bother to leave it for past users when they can "encourage" them to buy a crappy new machine without any pro features instead?

It's bad enough we have a concentrated effort to make iPads instead of REAL COMPUTERS, but does Apple have to make their real computers pretend to be iPads TOO?

The answer appears to be YES to that question. The days of Apple being a computer company are OVER. The days of Apple serving market professionals are OVER. Welcome to Apple of the future, the Radio Shack of the 21st Century.

 

[KnightWRX]

There are two usb ports on my mbp right now. If I had to use one of them to plug in an ethernet adapter I would be left with one. Now I am forced to use a hub if I want to plug in both my iPad and iPhone. If I want to charge my iPhone and plug in my digital cam. If I want to transfer between two external drives. If I am syncing my iPhone and need to print something off the internet, now I have to unplug something or use a hub. 2 usb ports is simply not enough if I have to use one for a dongle, because my second is pretty much always taken by my iPhone or iPad, which would leave me with no usb ports.

What's wrong with a hub ? Heck, I use exactly 1 port on my MBA most of the time, the one connected to my hub. It's much faster to dock it on my desk than trying to reconnect all my USB devices in one by one. I simply connect the hub in.

I had a USB hub back when I had a Ethernet port on my MacBook just because it's much more convenient.

Plenty of real world situations.

That again, I have never come accross in my first hand experience with the actual product (a MBA with a USB Ethernet adapter). Using an iPhone, mouse, keyboard, Wacom tablet, printer, scanner through USB and having to use an Ethernet dongle for when there's no wifi.

There has never been once in 2 years that I've met a scenario where I had to sacrifice a device's connection to plug in my Ethernet dongle.

You can sit there and make up scenarios and panic all you want. Try it and you might be surprised how much you don't actually need all those USB ports you think you do in the scenarios you make up in your head.

 

[thekeyring]

Deffo gonna have to buy a superdrive so I can rip my DVDs. Shame - I liked having my laptop as a portable DVD player. I wanted to keep this up when I moved to Mac, but oh well. A Mac with no DVD drive still beats a Windows PC with a DVD drive any day.

 

[thekeyring]

Consumers have spoken they don't want ODD, Ethernet, Firewire, or USB connectors on their MacBook Pros. Apple will do the right thing with the refresh and eliminate all these ports. We all want a super-thin, powerful, professional laptop. I don't even care if the memory is upgradeable as long as we can max out the onboard to 16gb. These are exciting times.

No USBs? How will you plug in a camera? Sync an iPod/iPhone/iPad? Even the MacBook Air has USB ports!

 

[ftaok]

No USBs? How will you plug in a camera? Sync an iPod/iPhone/iPad? Even the MacBook Air has USB ports!

You buy the Thunderbolt Display and use the USB ports on that. It's just that easy.

Seriously, there's no way they're dropping USB from the MBP's anytime soon. No need to worry about it just yet.

 

[Cubytus]

Long answer hightlights interesting points from others

You are aware that USB 3.0 is more CPU-efficient than earlier USB versions, right?

The "USB is a CPU hog" mantra is so last-century....

Not to mention the fact that most systems have multiple cores that are simply idle most of the time, so some extra CPU cycles spent handling USB traffic are just noise.

Didn't knew that one. As much as it hogs "less" CPU, its reputation as such still sticks, since the overhead is so large. FireWire400 vs. USB 2.0 still held in clear favor of FireWire. What will be the competition to USB 3.0?

If you're transcoding (with a multi-core aware codec) a multi-GB video file reading from one USB 3.0 drive and writing to a different USB 3.0 drive - you might be able to measure the effects of the CPU load. If you're doing it from/to the same USB 3.0 drive, delays due to head movements will be far, far greater than any CPU load effects. (And with normal multi-buffering, much of the extra CPU load will be hidden in the head movement delays.)

Disk transfer from one to another is a common operation that users shouldn't have to think about.

There's clearly a notion that CPUs are, mostly, powerful enough to handle any given task one may throw at them. I thinking more about mobile USB 3.0 use. As mobile storage isn't increasing as fast as needs, external storage will stay useful. But performing I/O operations in a mobile setting commands frugal power usage, which clearly cannot be obtained when a CPU is constantly being used. That's not to say FireWire doesn't use any power, it's just more efficient that the same task can be done in less time, using less battery power.
----

(...)
The studies just show that people use DVDs a lot. Macs are computers that people buy to do video editing, photo editing, etc. Whenever I send a home movie to my grandma or provide the video from a wedding I shot to a friend, or send a video slideshow made with iDVD to my parents, I burn it onto DVD. When I do a photo shoot in the field for a client I often burn them a DVD or two right on the spot, so that they don't have to try to download 4 gigs or 8 gigs off of my server (and I don't have to waste many hours uploading those gigs, either).

*DVD is cheap and practical for all these purposes. It is a necessity to me, and it is virtually a necessity therefore. I already jam my MacBook Pro into a camera bag's laptop slot, and often times there is literally no space for even a thin external DVD burner, which would likely get crushed unless it was made of titanium or steel.

*All the el-cheapo external DVD burners that I've seen are total pieces of plastic, and I would not trust them to survive on the road or in the field. I buy Apple laptops because they are the most solidly built, by far.

*My GF's dad has no internet. We were visiting him from out of town. I wanted to print a photo using a Kodak scanner/printer thing he just bought, and I was able to use that device's install CD to put the drivers onto my Mac. I doubt they were the latest version, but it worked fine. I was able to print two photos of his daughters and nephew for him.*

I am certain that if the DVD drive was not built-in, then I would never have brought one with me on that trip, since I had no reason to expect that I'd need one while visiting her dad for 3 days. But boy did it come in handy!

Thanks for providing us with a concrete example from a "traditional" profession that should remain catered to. What is more interesting about your second example is more or less relevant, despite me totally agreeing: if you have to expect the unexpected, you should already have your Apple Remote and miniDisplayPort VGA dongle. But those are small accessories that can easily be put in your pants' pocket if nowhere else can fit them.

The point is, where do you draw the line between an accessory small enough to be a no-brainer to take, and what is too large?

I think KnightWRX, him telling that external ODD were available for cheap, forgot to mention that they were exactly that, cheap.

You don't know that for a fact. You are just speculating. For all you know, it is from laptops. My GF works at the central library in Portland. They have a large collection of materials on CD and DVD. She tells me that patrons often bring in laptops to use these discs, some of which are not allowed to be checked out. And that is just one example.

That may not be seen as a valid argument. When sitting in a library, you have easy access to a table where even a cheapo ODD could be put to rest.

What I think you forgot to mention... Sitting for many hours in a library, you'll eventually have to go take a leak. Elementary caution calls for taking the laptop with you. How do you handle that without perilously letting the ODD hang on its cable, or putting it on the keyboard?

Who said it was? But it really ticks me off when people hand me a nasty, linty USB stick from their pocket and expect me to put it into the USB ports that I depend on for my livelihood. I usually have to unplug something to accomodate their stick, and just pray that I'm not accidentally unplugging my hard drive.

You're bordering on manic, don't you?

Realize that if you screw up your DVD drive from overusing it, then you will only have to replace a relatively inexpensive part -- but if you screw up your USB ports, then you will have to replace your entire logic board at great expense.

Apple stops manufacturing parts for discontinued devices 5 years after discontinuation. A customer this morning was somewhat angry she couldn't get an original, iBook G4 charger. So if they end up ditching the ODD, its days are numbered.

I like optical discs. They are very useful. I have a huge collection of them.*I want my 15" MBP to have a DVD drive. Even better would be it to have a Blu-Ray drive.*

I don't like them much, but I recognize there's no alternative when it comes to move data too large for uploading on the net / current-size USB keys, too small to ask for an external drive, or likely given to people who won't return it to you. But a large collection of them is huge, physically.

A 16GB USB stick costs $13 on Amazon, while it's $32 for a stack of 10 50-year-archival BD-R 25GB 6x discs on eBay.*A 6x BD-R writes at 27 megabytes (216 megabits) per second. The fastest drives read the blue-ray discs at double that speed!

Are you really willing to buy BD-Rs out of some shady vendor on eBay? I'm not.

Plus, have you found an affordable, internal or external, slimline, slot-load BD burner yet so as to replace the same one in a MacBook Pro?

I can safely conclude that compared to USB sticks, Blu-Ray is a faster, much cheaper way to store data. It is incidentally also much more archival and has a much lower carbon footprint to manufacture when compared to hard drives, for instance. A Blu-Ray disc is much easier to archive data on because you can write what is on the disc, on the disc itself; you can store the disc in a plastic case with its own label and insertable book that can say what is on the disc, etc.

Obviously you have much shelf room to spare, and don't move around much.

But I strongly disagree with the understatement that BD disc is a universal medium: most computers don't have BD drives in them, so using them as a reference for handing purposes isn't right.

I guess that very much depends on how you use your Macbook. When it's your only device and you use it as a desktop replacement, 2 USB Ports might be an issue. If you have it as a second machine for couch or occasional use or of course mobile use I at least didn't run into USB Port issues just yet. And if you don't use a couple of external Harddrives at once that really need bandwith you can always use a USB Hub.

I just hope lets say Apple integrates USB 3 they won't ditch the Firewire Port. I have not only FW 800 harddrives but audio equipment as well. Upgrading all of those would be a much greater hassle then just staying with my current Macbook Pro.

The MacBook, or MacBook Pro, for all practical ends, shouldn't be seen as a secondary machine. The Air and iPad are made for that.
Wasn't it an Apple mantra that a given product shouldn't cannibalize market upon its own other products? Seems they're moving back?

I'm hoping for an upgrade to the FireWire capabilities, but not holding my breath. There have been no evolution in a while on FireWire offering.

(...)
Plenty of real world situations.
(...)
they add a 3rd usb port in it's place, and they make at least ONE of the usb ports usb3.

Apple

This is just not gonna be a common enough problem though. With wifi going as fast as 600 Mbs and thunderbolt Hubs right around the corner - not to mention the already existing TB Display - there are far more important issues than the integration of only 2 USB ports and the inconvenience of using a usb hub in cases like yours.

Please tell us where exactly you have seen TB hubs "around the corner"?
TB has been out since more than a year, and still no product outside of "show queens", or ridiculously high-priced PCIe enclosures.

(...)
I barely use discs at all these days. 90%+ of my clients are happy to get a Dropbox link for large files.

Glad you have a large DropBox account. Or, how to make recurrently pay for what was previously a one-time fee. Brilliant.

I love my late 2008 MBP. It's VERY thin (any thinner is RETARDED and completley unneccssary. Get a freaking IPAD3 if you want thinner...oh wait it's actually THICKER to provide more advanced features, not removing useful features for THE SOLE REASON OF MAKING IT FRACKING THINNER, which is the WORST possible reason to remove the optical drive, which was already plenty thin.

Don't agree. Thinner is always nicer, as Dark Goob puts it by telling about his experience in the field. Space is always at a premium. Unibody can provide thinner design without removing connectivity.

Now look at all the talk of removing everything from ethernet ports to the ODD and what do you have left? Eh? Now let's see what a REAL Macbook "PRO" has on it:

My 2008 MBP has:

3 USB 2.x ports (not 2) (typically I have a MIDI box connected to one port and a mouse connected to the other while recording and an external non-apple keyboard when docked since Apple keyboard now suck to high heaven)

1 FW 800 port (I use a high speed backup drive here)

1 FW 400 port (whoa, what's this thing? You mean I don't have to use an adapter and daisy-chain to hook up my firewire audio box? Imagine that....)

1 Gigabit Ethernet port (used when docked to transfer HD sized video file encodes to my serve; WiFi doesn't even come CLOSE in the same room as Gigabit. Anyone who thinks WiFi is good enough either doesn't really use their computer or is clueless. When traveling, I often use the Ethernet port for incoming Internet and use the internal WiFi to create my own WiFi network to connect my iPod Touch and other devices to at places that only have Ethernet, which is more common than you might think).

1 Full Size DVI port. I don't need no stinking adapter to connect my MBP to nearly every single monitor on the planet (except ironically, Apple's own newer monitors). A simple DVI to HDMI cable will connect it to any current TV on the planet as well.

1 Express expansion slot. I can plug almost anything into this to add more features to my MBP, from simple SD card readers to USB3 cards to E-Sata cards to external expansion boxes. I could not BELIEVE when Apple traded this extremely useful port for a stinking simple SD slot. THAT is the day I started losing respect for Apple (Non Computers).

They managed to fit ALL those ports on my MBP plus a DVD combo drive plus a battery cover that lets me carry backup battery supplies if I so desire (you're SCREWED on newer models once they run out of power) PLUS it has a matte screen that doesn't blind me with reflections all day long.

Now THAT was a PROFESSIONAL Macbook. It was the same Macbook that ran Windows Vista faster than any PC notebook (non-desktop type) could. Apple was at the top of its game for professional products and then... they switched to coddling PHONE USERS instead of Macintosh computer users. Now everything from all the hardware to the freaking operating system itself is being DUMBED DOWN and limited in options so that all the clueless people who text while driving of the world don't get confused by extra ports and real features.

With my 2008 MBP, I can write my own song with Logic Professional and burn a CD copy on the same machine immediately. Now you'll have to carry an extra drive and pray they don't remove the CD burning features entirely from Logic and iTunes in the future (they wouldn't want you to be confused with something that isn't there on your new machine and hey, who can bother to leave it for past users when they can "encourage" them to buy a crappy new machine without any pro features instead?

It's bad enough we have a concentrated effort to make iPads instead of REAL COMPUTERS, but does Apple have to make their real computers pretend to be iPads TOO?

The answer appears to be YES to that question. The days of Apple being a computer company are OVER. The days of Apple serving market professionals are OVER. Welcome to Apple of the future, the Radio Shack of the 21st Century.

Lots of emotion flying in this post.

First, where have you seen that Apple's current keyboards suck? In fact, they have been widely praised by users and professional alike, and being copied by every brand. Chiclet-style is simply better, particularly for non-typists, who still are a vast majority of computer users.

Second: what external drive model do you use? I could never find a drive that would saturate the FW800 port.

Third: Indeed, why don't you daisy-chain devices on FW? It was designed so daisy-chain would be both useful and desirable.

Fourth: WiFi is mandatory, but there are many, many settings where one simply has one, or two computers at most, and where no large files moves around between the two. So 802.11n provides enough speed for these casual uses. But I still agree that, when sitting at a desk, or simply have to periodically move large files around between two computers, a short cat6 cable comes in handy. Alternatively, you forgot to mention those common settings where WiFi simply isn't allowed, such as hospitals, research centers, or the like.

Fifth: plugging into "every monitor on the planet" would have required VGA, not DVI. You'd be surprised to know how many projectors and CRTs remain in service. Even now VGA is the standard in large organizations such as universities. I have yet to encounter any non-VGA-only place. But granted, DVI to VGA adapters exist, and they're more compact than miniDP to VGA dongles.

I never tried to put on paper all that was included in the pre-unibody 15" MBP, since I hadn't the dough to pay for it at that time. Seems it lost much, only gaining a better battery.

What's wrong with a hub ? Heck, I use exactly 1 port on my MBA most of the time, the one connected to my hub. It's much faster to dock it on my desk than trying to reconnect all my USB devices in one by one. I simply connect the hub in.

I had a USB hub back when I had a Ethernet port on my MacBook just because it's much more convenient.


That again, I have never come accross in my first hand experience with the actual product (a MBA with a USB Ethernet adapter). Using an iPhone, mouse, keyboard, Wacom tablet, printer, scanner through USB and having to use an Ethernet dongle for when there's no wifi.

There has never been once in 2 years that I've met a scenario where I had to sacrifice a device's connection to plug in my Ethernet dongle.

You can sit there and make up scenarios and panic all you want. Try it and you might be surprised how much you don't actually need all those USB ports you think you do in the scenarios you make up in your head.

The hub is yet another part that Apple doesn't manufacture, and don't control the quality. There are plenty of low-quality hubs around, there's no way to judge their stability, and it adds yet another part to have a poor experience with. For example, on mine, a 7-port, bulky Dynex, I can not expect to plug it in and all devices will be enumerated orderly. There's always that one peripheral that will take longer to enumerate, or drain too much current for a second or two, longer than the other peripherals take, and that will eventually force you to disconnect it and connect it back.

 

[zgwortz]

I pretty clearly stated that that number was "in my experience." There's no study or article from which the number was pulled. I've been an IT professional for over 7 years, and IN MY EXPERIENCE the ODD is rarely used in a professional setting.

What you have learned from your own experience is just as valid, and I would never ask you to cite a source. That is ridiculous.

The only reason I asked you to cite a source is you gave a specific number. I thought perhaps you had a source for it.

It seems clear to me from your responses, that we're basically both drawing our arguments from different opinions on one fundamental question: Is an internal ODD of use to the average professional MBP user? My answer to that is Yes, definitely, yours is No. Every point either of us has made is defined by the answer to that question, and they're all entirely eclipsed by that sole difference of opinion. I don't think we'll be able to agree on any of this *unless* one of us is able to convince the other on this single question.

You can go on and on about the advantages of taking out the ODD (and I'm willing to grant you there *are* advantages...) - but in *my* opinion, the disadvantage of having to lug around an external ODD negates all of those advantages for more users than it helps. There's nothing in your list of advantages which is even remotely compelling enough for me to make up for the need to lug around that external ODD.

Again, I think the best solution would be for Apple to provide an option -- and see what the actual opinion of their customers is.

 

[xxBURT0Nxx]

There has never been once in 2 years that I've met a scenario where I had to sacrifice a device's connection to plug in my Ethernet dongle.

That's great, I'm really happy for you. Still don't know why you don't understand that not everyone has the same usage scenarios that you do.

You can sit there and make up scenarios and panic all you want. Try it and you might be surprised how much you don't actually need all those USB ports you think you do in the scenarios you make up in your head.

?? Thanks, I do try it every day. I use my macbook pro all of the time with two USB devices and my ethernet cord plugged in. If I had to use one of those USB ports for an ethernet dongle it is going to affect my usage.

 

[Konrad]

On the subject of space for the ODD vrs another storage drive, or a larger battery, there is the definition of a professional device, it is a pointless argument, as no professional user will care about keeping vital data in portable computer for obvious reasons. The problem is that the pro definition is misused, simply because the product in question is effectively becoming either a fashion accessory, or a companion to a starbucks visit rather than a business trip to NAB where some of us go to figure out how to further its life with important to our media work third party components. Someone here wants to load it with 32GB of RAM (makes me wonder what the hell for) others want it to be thinner than the MBA, yet some want the retina and the latest gadgets the wired magazine feeds their trendy heads while they proudly parade with their $2K disposable toy at barnes and nobles. A true professional laptop needs to be not small, but has to be back compatible, expendable, modular, robust, configurable to order and reliable. Does the current Mac fit he bill? Will the upcoming replacement be the ideal machine? Most likely not, as the pro designation is now nothing more than a marketing inheritance for the crazed masses. The populace where everybody wants to be percepted as a professional.

 

[thekeyring]

You buy the Thunderbolt Display and use the USB ports on that. It's just that easy.

Seriously, there's no way they're dropping USB from the MBP's anytime soon. No need to worry about it just yet.

Okay good because I'm not paying another £800 for USB ports that wont work '
on-the-go. I'd have to rethink my entire setup!

 

[KnightWRX]

I think KnightWRX, him telling that external ODD were available for cheap, forgot to mention that they were exactly that, cheap.

No cheaper than Apple's internal superdrives which have such high failure rates anyhow. In fact, they're both much easier and cheaper to replace when they fail.

I wouldn't even cough up the cash for Apple's external superdrive. A 35$ Samsung one does the job, has an actual eject button in case it fails and you want to retrieve your disk and will work off of 1 USB port like the Apple one that retails for 70$.

 

[kloneman]

I disagree.

A portable device should not have an optical drive. I care more about the portability of my portable device than having all the bells and whistles on it. If you need an optical drive, either carry an external one with you or get a desktop, which should always have optical drives, since size and portability are not an issue for a fixed device.

The world is changing. Your clients should start getting used to downloading the videos from the web. Maybe it's about a year early for this, but this will become the norm soon. Apple is just ahead of the curve.

Copying CDs? Are you doing this on the go? Just get an external optical drive and leave it at home.

I disagree - a portable device SHOULD have an optical drive. "The web" is not a feasible PORTABLE solution for large files, especially HD Video, when the wireless carriers are capping, throttling and charging excessively for it. In addition, high speed wired network access is not available everywhere, nor is high speed wireless available in every location people want to use their PORTABLE computers, in addition to the cost issues associated with this kind of access.

I want comparable capability now in 2012 for HD BluRay that I had for Standard definition video on DVD when I purchased my 1 Ghz Powerbook G4 17 inch back in 2003. I want the ability to burn an optical disk of the 16 GB of HD video I shoot, right on site. This capability would be on par with capability I had in 2003: burning a dual layer DVD of the Standard Def video I used to shoot.

Also, I have plenty of those PIXAR Bluray disks, and other media titles I own and want to be able to play for my kids, while we're traveling. Satisfying these needs by "ripping" is also not feaible and a waste of the storage on the computer.

 

[Yebubbleman]

Slimmer 13" Pro, fine. Makes sense...sorta. Slimmer 15" Pro on the other hand makes no sense unless it's a model lacking in a discrete GPU. Say what you will about the optical drive and the Ethernet and FireWire ports, the main reason why the MacBook Pro is as thick as it is is so we can have a discrete GPU. Make it thinner and you're left with either a weaker video card with discrete VRAM, or none at all. And really, I think very few 15" MacBook Pro customers will be down for that.

 

[ZaYoOoD]

17" MacBook Air?!
The screen is gonna coooost if you broke it!
I broke my MBA 2011 13" screen, paid 700$ to fix it

But, you gotta be careful around these products,
my iPhone slipped and slightly hit the screen, and it cracked..

but, you know!
take care..

----------

BTW,
DVD/CD is a dieing technology..
I bought my MacBook Pro, used it for 2 years and never needed or used an optical drive..
that's why i got the MBA

 

[strwrsfrk]

The only reason I asked you to cite a source is you gave a specific number. I thought perhaps you had a source for it.

It seems clear to me from your responses, that we're basically both drawing our arguments from different opinions on one fundamental question: Is an internal ODD of use to the average professional MBP user? My answer to that is Yes, definitely, yours is No. Every point either of us has made is defined by the answer to that question, and they're all entirely eclipsed by that sole difference of opinion. I don't think we'll be able to agree on any of this *unless* one of us is able to convince the other on this single question.

You can go on and on about the advantages of taking out the ODD (and I'm willing to grant you there *are* advantages...) - but in *my* opinion, the disadvantage of having to lug around an external ODD negates all of those advantages for more users than it helps. There's nothing in your list of advantages which is even remotely compelling enough for me to make up for the need to lug around that external ODD.

Again, I think the best solution would be for Apple to provide an option -- and see what the actual opinion of their customers is.

That's fair.

And perhaps ironically, since I have no interest in buying a MacBook Pro, I really have no dog in this fight. What Apple ultimately does doesn't matter to me except as a point of interest and debate.

Anyway, I hope whatever they do works for you. I'm also of the opinion that Apple should give as many BTO options as they can, but we know that will never happen...

 

[yanksrock100]

All can see is discussion about optical drives....I'm it interested in displays for now. Do yoma yuys think yttrium before 2012 ends, we will have retina (or higher Res) on the 13 inch Mac?

 

[surjavarman]

Please god... let there be a retina ips display in the MBA15. Please I beg of you!!!!

Getting sick and tired of these substandard displays on notebooks.