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MP All Models So long, old friend.

Was Apple right to retire the Mac Pro?

  • Yes

    Votes: 284 64.7%

  • No

    Votes: 155 35.3%
  • Total voters
    439
David Hassholehoff said:
The fact that you have to go through that "one click process" at all makes Windows a completely unserious alternative. If I need to fiddle with the OS at all to make it acceptable, I may just as well use GNU and fiddle to make the GUI acceptable.
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What a ridiculous thing to say. You're telling me you never feel the need to fiddle with macOS at all? What do you use it for, Safari?

David Hassholehoff said:
At least an unacceptably poor GUI design won't snitch on me just because I didn't have time to fiddle with it on setup. 😬
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Clicking on something a couple of times a year is a complete deal-breaker when it comes to your OS choice? Who's being unserious? I'm not signed in to a MS account, and use Brave / DuckDuckGo for browsing, so not really sure what telemetry it would be sending in any case.
 
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mode11 said:
Every 6 months or so I run an app called O&O Shutup, that turns off any telemetry in Windows. It's just a 1-click process, though I turn a couple of items back on as they're useful.

I have a 14 core desktop CPU, so if there's the odd non-critical process running, I don't lose sleep over it. No doubt macOS has got various AI ******** running in the background.
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You at least have the option of turning off Apple Intelligence.
 
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mode11 said:
To me, what defines a halo product is that it's principle purpose is to create your "aura of favourable impression, prestige". Something that's typically free from the constraints of mass-market affordability, but casts a bit of glamour onto more prosaic products.
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I'd say that what defines a halo product, is the actual, well-referenced definition of the "halo effect" ( @Arctic Moose did a good job of providing other references) and that the iPod was frequently cited as an example of the halo effect in marketing. It's quite a broad term that can apply to things like high-end aspirational products, greenwashing, flashy prototypes etc. as well as successful mass-market products.

The problem is with the Mac Pro as a prestige "halo product" is that - in a world of slick laptops, cute SFF systems and all-in-ones, desktop tower workstations (even if you need one) just aren't something that the mass market lusts over. Even if you need one, they're not so much Ford GT as Ford Transit...

Really, that started in the 90s once cheap commodity PC hardware started getting powerful enough to compete with Macs for graphics/video.publishing - but everybody still admired the Powerbook series (which basically created the modern laptop). The original iMac was another potential halo product - but was eclipsed by the iPod.

The MacBook Neo has a better chance of being a mass-market "halo product" that gets people in the door of the Apple Store - the rumoured OLED MacBook Pro sounds like it might be designed as a "prestige" halo product, even the MacBook M5 Pro/Max is setting speed records for laptops c.f. PC laptops (something the Mac Pro could never do vs. PC tower workstations).
 
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mode11 said:
What a ridiculous thing to say. You're telling me you never feel the need to fiddle with macOS at all? What do you use it for, Safari?
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That is not what I am saying. My point is that I find Windows to be unusable in its default state. A clean install takes a really long time to setup and you have to deactivate a lot of bullsһit before it is usable. Of course you can do this with a utility, but then you have to trust that utility, which again, takes time.

By contrast, a clean install of macOS is usable. If you ask me to work with it I don't have to do anything to make it so. I will, but that is a question of preferences, not that the OS is in such a state that it is a security risk or will use my behaviour for ads to sell me soap.

As it stands right now, Apple explicitly asks you whether you want the AI/Intelligence stuff on or off at first start. If this changes, then yes, there will be procedures I will have to go through to get the OS to a usable state. But we aren't there ...yet.
mode11 said:
Clicking on something a couple of times a year is a complete deal-breaker when it comes to your OS choice? Who's being unserious? I'm not signed in to a MS account, and use Brave / DuckDuckGo for browsing, so not really sure what telemetry it would be sending in any case.
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You are missing the point entirely. The problem is that first the OS in such a state that you have to run the tool to begin with. Secondly, you have to run the tool more than once, which means the OS is actually fighting you and you have to be vigilant for the changes that necessitates you running the tool. If these changes can be triggered not just at updates, but between updates, then you suddenly also need some kind of monitoring tool.

This is not (just) about telemetry, which is why I am so vague about it. It is about the OS being in a state that is very different from where it needs to be for its intended task(s). I don't count installing a web browser, Visual Studio or Adobe Photoshop as "fiddling about" with the OS, that is just installing your work tool and it is the same on macOS, GNU and BSD. Windows is no worse there.

But regarding telemetry, again, as it stands right now, Apple is pretty transparent about what they want and why. And it is currently not for selling to advertisers. If they start wanting data for training AI and other shenanigans, that will become a problem.
 
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theluggage said:
I'd say that what defines a halo product, is the actual, well-referenced definition of the "halo effect" ( @Arctic Moose did a good job of providing other references) and that the iPod was frequently cited as an example of the halo effect in marketing. It's quite a broad term that can apply to things like high-end aspirational products, greenwashing, flashy prototypes etc. as well as successful mass-market products.
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Yeah, my point of reference is more in the paragraph below the one linked, which discusses it in relation to cars. E.g. the GT40 selling Escorts, as I mentioned earlier. Having good experiences with one product will naturally confer a halo effect on others the company makes. But for something to be a halo product, I feel it needs to be highly desirable but something you probably wouldn't buy (either due to being too expensive, or just poor 'value'). It's intended and expected value to the company is not to make lots of money itself, but to market mainstream fare.


theluggage said:
The problem is with the Mac Pro as a prestige "halo product" is that - in a world of slick laptops, cute SFF systems and all-in-ones, desktop tower workstations (even if you need one) just aren't something that the mass market lusts over. Even if you need one, they're not so much Ford GT as Ford Transit...
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Exactly the point I made earlier, referencing Mercedes lorries.

theluggage said:
Really, that started in the 90s once cheap commodity PC hardware started getting powerful enough to compete with Macs for graphics/video.publishing - but everybody still admired the Powerbook series (which basically created the modern laptop). The original iMac was another potential halo product - but was eclipsed by the iPod.
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Again, I'm not sure something readily affordable can be called a halo product. The iMac and iPod were high volume sellers in their own right. They weren't conceived with the intention of getting people to buy something else. Essentially - they were just good products, and sold well. A Titanium PowerBook might have been considered a halo product, driving sales of iBooks - possibly.


theluggage said:
The MacBook Neo has a better chance of being a mass-market "halo product" that gets people in the door of the Apple Store - the rumoured OLED MacBook Pro sounds like it might be designed as a "prestige" halo product, even the MacBook M5 Pro/Max is setting speed records for laptops c.f. PC laptops (something the Mac Pro could never do vs. PC tower workstations).
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As a conspicuously good value product that borders on an impulse purchase, I again wouldn't consider it a halo product. I also wouldn't really consider it conferring a halo effect, either. Most people already have a lot of experience with Apple products, whether iPhones, iPads, or MacBooks. The Neo can only move the needle in terms of peoples' perception of Apple's value for money (which is a heavy lift). Objectively, it's the worst Apple product, with the slowest processor, worst screen, slowest storage, non-backlit keyboard, diving board trackpad etc. Even the speakers are worse than an iPhone's (Pro at least). It might make other Apple products look good, but only in comparison.
 
David Hassholehoff said:
That is not what I am saying. My point is that I find Windows to be unusable in its default state. A clean install takes a really long time to setup and you have to deactivate a lot of bullsһit before it is usable. Of course you can do this with a utility, but then you have to trust that utility, which again, takes time.
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You literally said "If I need to fiddle with the OS at all to make it acceptable, I may just as well use GNU". It follows that if you had to fiddle with macOS at all, you may as well use GNU.

I get that you were being hyperbolic and meant you find macOS good enough out of the box to just start working. I would agree with this (I have an MBA running Sequoia). Windows does take more fiddling with, not just with deactivating ********, but also tweaking aesthetically. Having said that, if you're installing an International English version of Windows 11 Pro, rather than using an OEM install, the hassle is overblown. You can get down to work pretty quickly. Plus, I found the utility I mentioned easily enough, recommended by mainstream sites.


David Hassholehoff said:
By contrast, a clean install of macOS is usable. If you ask me to work with it I don't have to do anything to make it so. I will, but that is a question of preferences, not that the OS is in such a state that it is a security risk or will use my behaviour for ads to sell me soap.
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OK, no argument that macOS is better in this regard. But the downside is that you have to use it on a Mac, which rules out using it on an expandible desktop (like a Mac Pro...). Pick your poison.

As I mentioned earlier, you'll have more luck tweaking Windows to how you'd like it than getting Apple to make the Mac hardware you want.
 
KPOM said:
Mac is not a serious platform for computing. Never has been. It’s always been a toy. Nobody uses a Mac for real work. That’s why they are more excited about releasing an underpowered Neo than a real PC.
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A toy, what nonsense. Nobody does any work on it - ridiculous.
 
KPOM said:
Mac is not a serious platform for computing. Never has been. It’s always been a toy. Nobody uses a Mac for real work. That’s why they are more excited about releasing an underpowered Neo than a real PC.
Click to expand...


And yet every job I have ever worked, has always used Macs…
 
The whole enthusiast computer space seems to be disappearing.

We are seeing RAM, HDD, graphics manufacturers abandoning the consumer market altogether in favor of enterprise customers.
 
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mode11 said:
You literally said "If I need to fiddle with the OS at all to make it acceptable, I may just as well use GNU". It follows that if you had to fiddle with macOS at all, you may as well use GNU.
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No, if I have to fiddle with the OS as much as Windows requires I might as well use GNU. As I said before, I don't count installing apps as "fiddling" here because all platforms are pretty much equal in that regard.

Edit: I checked my original post and you are correct, I did say "at all". However, as I have at least implied, I do not count minor and/or cosmetic preferences here. I am talking about changes that impact the way the OS functions, and typically aren't found in System Preferences or the Control Panel or Settings app.
mode11 said:
I get that you were being hyperbolic and meant you find macOS good enough out of the box to just start working. I would agree with this (I have an MBA running Sequoia). Windows does take more fiddling with, not just with deactivating ********, but also tweaking aesthetically. Having said that, if you're installing an International English version of Windows 11 Pro, rather than using an OEM install, the hassle is overblown. You can get down to work pretty quickly. Plus, I found the utility I mentioned easily enough, recommended by mainstream sites.
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I wasn't even thinking about the aesthetical preferences when I talked about fiddling, but yes, there is some of that too. I have not installed an OEM version of Windows in well over a decade and a half, so I can't comment on that. I have installed Windows 11 Pro (Swedish) a few times in the last four months, but all of them in virtual machines. Right now, it takes considerable fiddling just to install Windows 11 without an online account. Windows will then pester the user about OneDrive and using whatever their Outlook replacement is called, so they have to go. Depending on what the install is going to be used for, you may also have to uninstall various "features" like the Xbox Game Bar so it doesn't start pestering the user who accidentally type Windows-G (which is particularly easy when using a Mac keyboard).

I keep various PowerShell script for some of this, but that is just me prerecording my fiddling! The tool you use is just another person recorded playing the fiddle.

Anyway, I'm going to check out the tool you mentioned, it sounds useful. But first I need to restring and tune my viola. (Seriously)
mode11 said:
OK, no argument that macOS is better in this regard. But the downside is that you have to use it on a Mac, which rules out using it on an expandible desktop (like a Mac Pro...). Pick your poison.

As I mentioned earlier, you'll have more luck tweaking Windows to how you'd like it than getting Apple to make the Mac hardware you want.
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I agree.
 
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KPOM said:
Mac is not a serious platform for computing. Never has been. It’s always been a toy. Nobody uses a Mac for real work. That’s why they are more excited about releasing an underpowered Neo than a real PC.
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All of those Hollywood filmmakers disagree with you.
 
Alameda said:
All of those Hollywood filmmakers disagree with you.
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Yeah, but do they do real work?

joey-joey-tribbian.gif
 
Royksöpp said:
It really showed the true limitations of Apple Silicon. It's truly the closed system Steve Jobs always imagined.
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Just be happy we have TB5 (individual controllers for each)

I don't think its a limitation, the Mac Pro 2023 M2 Ultra had 32 PCIe lanes, compared to the 2019 28 core 64 pcie lanes. They could definitely have added more. Not counting GPU PCIe support, slotted RAM, it gets close to what a Mac Pro should be.
 
SpotOnT said:
The whole enthusiast computer space seems to be disappearing.

We are seeing RAM, HDD, graphics manufacturers abandoning the consumer market altogether in favor of enterprise customers.
Click to expand...

You're right about consumers being abandoned. But there is another aspect to it - you really used to have to be an enthusiast to get a good computing experience. Now even the most basic Mac is good.

I used to enjoy picking computer parts and building and tinkering and maintaining, even overclocking and undervolting. Now I just see no point in it.
 
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