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Was Apple right to retire the Mac Pro?

  • Yes

    Votes: 284 64.7%
  • No

    Votes: 155 35.3%

  • Total voters
    439
Quite the opposite: Apple has absolutely no interest in professional users and caters only to the masses. People who mindlessly buy a new Mac every year.

Don't think there's too many of those. Macs are famously long lasting. Apple will likely have to drop the M1 from macOS to push people to upgrade.


I think the last Mac Pro was the result of the “Pro faction” within the company making one last stand. They were outvoted by the “We’ll boost profits through retail customers”-majority.
There’s no other way to explain a computer that’s marketed to professionals but was absolutely useless.

It's an odd one. Apple was already well and truly the latter kind of company in 2017 when they started work on it. It was in the middle of MBP keyboard-gate / dongle-gate, when many 'pro' customers were grumbling about Apple's direction. I think they may have feared a mass defection to Windows and felt they needed to show they valued high-end customers. If AS hadn't come along, this may even have happened.

As it was, AS likely came along ahead of schedule / Intel's malaise dragged on, and Apple decided to jump ship early. So, in the end, the AS transition was announced just 6 months after the 2019 MP finally hit the showroom in late December that year.
 
I just wish they could have settled for an expanded board from the Studio with PCIe slots and put it in a decent case that was less overbuilt. It feels like it could have been achieved for way less premium over the Studio than what they tried to charge.

There are industries that want "Mac but with internal I/O expansion" and it's niche and low-volume, but it could have been served if they didn't put their level of ambition through the roof.
 
I agree that it's a bit of a problem to read those who are happy about the discontinuation of the Mac Pro when they don't own one.
I have a 7.1, and it's still one of the best computers ever made. Seeing this workstation line completely abandoned by the world's largest computer manufacturer is quite disheartening.
Reading grand pronouncements used to justify all this is a bit strange.
You know, Apple could very well sell a whole range of products with Apple Silicon but also continue making professional workstations with Xeon or Threadripper, and that would be perfectly relevant.
What, maintaining Mac OS for x86 would be a waste of time for such a small market? Well, maybe not if Apple had truly supported this entire market and maintained Nvidia. Whether it's for AI or 3D, we need these kinds of workstations. The Mac Studio has many problems that I won't list, but to summarize, it's a disposable computer, too expensive in its high-end versions, and I prefer to invest in upgradeable PCs starting at a certain price point (above $5,000) rather than disposable machines that won't even be usable on the second-hand market because they're completely unrepairable.

Yes, I also have some environmental concerns, and seeing a device completely dead because everything is soldered, proprietary, and repairing it requires a highly skilled technician and a lot of time for a result that's somewhat limited in terms of the operating system (if Linux isn't installable) is very frustrating.
 
What, maintaining Mac OS for x86 would be a waste of time for such a small market?
Supporting x86 in parallel to ARM is the easy part. My best guess is Apple wants to only support Apple Silicon with its own GPUs to streamline Metal to only supporting unified memory with unified address spaces.
 
I said no, but it was under utilised for what it was, how can it be Pro when you can have a studio which M3 Ultra… this should be the most powerful thing ever!
 
I agree that it's a bit of a problem to read those who are happy about the discontinuation of the Mac Pro when they don't own one.

Coming to a forum for enthusiasts of a certain machine, on the day the line gets cancelled, to tell them to stop overreacting, borders on trolling. Albeit the writing's been on the wall for some time.


I have a 7.1, and it's still one of the best computers ever made. Seeing this workstation line completely abandoned by the world's largest computer manufacturer is quite disheartening.

This is the thing. If Apple had just dribbled out a half-hearted effort, long-suffering MP fans would have read between the lines. But going all-out with a completely custom design, a new slot standard (MPX), a 1.5TB RAM ceiling and a doubling of the starting price, customers could be forgiven for believing Apple's public statements. When they said they had re-committed to the Mac Pro, there seemed little reason to doubt them. Especially following an almost unheard of (from Apple) admission of error regarding the previous model.

Given the previous model had come out in 2013 (2017 if you count the iMac Pro), there was pent up demand for a new workstation. Previous MP towers had also enjoyed exceptionally long lifespans (albeit probably not intentionally), so some invested heavily in what they considered a '10 year' machine.


Reading grand pronouncements used to justify all this is a bit strange.
You know, Apple could very well sell a whole range of products with Apple Silicon but also continue making professional workstations with Xeon or Threadripper, and that would be perfectly relevant.

From Apple's point of view, though, would it make any (real) money? They'd be selling in tiny numbers compared to e.g. HP and Lenovo. Unlike with Windows PCs, these machines would share nothing hardware-wise with the rest of the Apple ecosystem. Nvidia / AMD Windows GPU drivers are common to swathes of PCIe cards, from budget to workstation. This effort would need to be done just for a handful of Mac Pros. There's no iMacs or MBPs using them anymore.

Apple's CPU cores are industry-leading. They would only need a version that supports lots of PCIe lanes. But this would be pointless unless they also supported (Nvidia) PCIe GPUs. Which would be a major departure from the unified memory model used by every other Apple device.

Apple consider the Mx Ultra GPU good enough for most purposes. And if it isn't, they're OK with losing you to Windows / Linux. They gain more from not needing to serve that section of the Mac userbase.


What, maintaining Mac OS for x86 would be a waste of time for such a small market? Well, maybe not if Apple had truly supported this entire market and maintained Nvidia. Whether it's for AI or 3D, we need these kinds of workstations.

Even if Apple had maintained Nvidia support over the past 15 years, the above issue would still exist - driver development would be borne by a single niche model, not e.g. MBPs.

Although it's widely assumed that Apple fell out with Nvidia over some dodgy laptop GPUs in 2007 (of which I had one), I've always doubted this. AMD had similar issues, albeit they likely handled it better. I've always assumed Apple saw CUDA as a competitor to Metal, and felt that allowing it on their platform would result in cross-platform apps simply settling for the former, killing the latter.


The Mac Studio has many problems that I won't list, but to summarize, it's a disposable computer, too expensive in its high-end versions, and I prefer to invest in upgradeable PCs starting at a certain price point (above $5,000) rather than disposable machines that won't even be usable on the second-hand market because they're completely unrepairable.

I don't know how reliable Studio's are. I'd assume they do well, given their laptop chips are easy to cool with a comparatively massive heatsink, and there don't seem to be many reports of failure. Dust build up could be an issue, though, given they're not designed to be easily opened. Assuming they don't break, there should be a healthy second hand market, so they're not a dead loss when upgrading.


Yes, I also have some environmental concerns, and seeing a device completely dead because everything is soldered, proprietary, and repairing it requires a highly skilled technician and a lot of time for a result that's somewhat limited in terms of the operating system (if Linux isn't installable) is very frustrating.

Using proprietary flash blades is blatantly intended to steer purchasers towards expensive upgrades. Whatever the technical justification, given a choice, no one would choose them over being able to add / replace commodity M.2 blades themselves. A studio could easily accommodate, say, 4 slots.
 
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The best thing with them is you could just load them up with more and more and they just chew through it with no overheating, always silent. You could load them with enormous amounts of RAM and storage, windows can run natively (and very well). Superb machines.

That at least was the 7,1 - the same couldn't be said for the 6,1 a little round furnace, great for warming your hands in winter!

The Lenovo Thinkstation PX is the logical Mac Pro 7,1 alternative. Very expandable, well designed as well.



The 7,1 was the best Mac Pro of them all. Quiet, able to be massively expanded and very well designed.
If you can get Windows to run smoothly on it, I can only imagine how fast games were. On my old machine, I had to use debloat scripts and turn off a bunch of crap just to get a decent frame rate. But that computer is ancient by today's standards, so I just threw Linux on it. But back on topic, I would love to see the old Pro benchmarked!
 
I agree that it's a bit of a problem to read those who are happy about the discontinuation of the Mac Pro when they don't own one.
Is anyone here actually ‘happy’ about its discontinuation? Because I’ve been reading pages on pages of this thread and, I haven’t seen one person say they are genuinely ‘happy’ about its discontinuation.
If anything, the reason to be ‘happy’ is because Apple finally, arguably after 17 years of the product being treated as an afterthought, came out and said what we all know they have been thinking internally since at least 2010, the product is dead.
There have been articles upon articles upon articles released over the last 16 years, saying that the product is close to being discontinued. Arguably it hit its peak in 2012…


For so many years, when Apple had to come out and say the product “isn’t dead” in 2012, and again in 2017, it felt like they were just pulling the same move they did with the iPod classic.
Steve very well new in March 2011 that the days of the iPod classic were numbered, not only because it was obvious, but also because it had barely been touched since 2007, and it’s basic design went back even further.

So now, there is closure. Anyone waiting on a MacPro doesn’t have to wait anymore.
Anyone who was still holding out for the mythical M-Extreme chip that would have double everything that the Ultra has and take advantage of the space of a massive tower and have more upgradable components, well now you have your answer. Officially, right from the horses mouth, it’s not happening. That’s the thing to be ‘happy’ about, no more waiting 5 to 7 years between upgrades, no more having to deal with Apple PR reassurance is every couple of years that the product is “still an important member of the Mac family””, it’s time has come.
 
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So now, there is closure. Anyone waiting on a MacPro doesn’t have to wait anymore.
Anyone who was still holding out for the mythical M-Extreme chip that would have double everything that the Ultra has and take advantage of the space of a massive tower and have more upgradable components, well now you have your answer. Officially, right from the horses mouth, it’s not happening. That’s the thing to be ‘happy’ about, no more waiting 5 to 7 years between upgrades, no more having to deal with Apple PR reassurance is every couple of years that the product is “still an important member of the Mac family””, it’s time has come.
Well, exactly, as I was saying earlier. Apple isn't just any company. It's not a component aggregator offering quick and efficient solutions in functional chassis for businesses.
Apple rose to the top of the industry thanks to design, and not just "object design" but also the "graphic design" of its operating system. Then, design and technology, or softwares, became intertwined.

Also, a computer, even though recent advances thanks to Arm have drastically changed the power consumption and efficiency of the calculations needed to run softwares, is defined by several machines. Just as there are electric city cars, sports cars, and SUVs, there are also utility vehicles, trucks, buses, and even trains.

What is a workstation? It's not a city car or a sports car. So, it's completely pointless to compare the single-core speed of the Mac mini's M4 to the single-core speed of the Mac Pro 7.1's Xeon. Why? Well, because just as the trunk of a small city car is quite limited, the Mac mini's trunk is equally so. And we expect a Mac Pro to be like a big truck. Certainly less maneuverable on city streets, but more durable for long journeys with a huge trunk. And if you'll allow me to extend the metaphor, this huge trunk is the number of PCIe lanes. And we put all sorts of cards on these lanes. So, the Mac Pro might seem slower than a Mac mini, but that doesn't matter to us users. We want a truck with a big trunk. What the Mac Studio is is a kind of SUV to which you can attach trailers. And we're told: but trailers via Thunderbolt are fantastic!
So Apple, which is a great company, could very well have continued making trucks, if you like. That's all I'm saying.

And for people who don't need trucks and never drive them to tell us that we don't need them, when we drive these trucks a lot, is quite funny.
 
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People are just really really sentimentally attached to the idea of a desktop tower. I do understand how it happened - for the longest time the desktop tower represented the thing that people in the know did to get a good computer, and anything else was a compromise.

It's only recently that things have gotten so powerful and efficient, mainly Apple silicon, that people who previously were only happy with desktop performance are finding a laptop now performs adequately while remaining cooler and quieter than any desktop they had ever did.

It seems to be the techiest people who are finding it hardest to adjust I saw on the WAN show both Luke and Linus were at the point where they just use desktops purely because they "feel" more powerful and "feel" better. The penny has still only half dropped for them.


Yeah I totally get that

I was certainly one of those people

I thought not being able to use a “real” gpu in macOS was the end of the world

Then I kept doing the in logic and playing the same games in my downtime in crossover on my studio and forgot about it
How does that manage with VR headsets? Let's say you wanted to run Flight Sim 2020 in VR mode?

Edit: Just checked on the Crossover website, not listed, so most likely doesn't work.

No idea I’ve never gotten in to vr
 
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Your Mac can't play most games, full stop. And your AMD GPU might have a big heatsink, but if it's outperformed by a Studio, it doesn't sound like a recent model.

It absolutely can play most games, full stop. The only issue is games that have anti-cheat stuff, they don’t work in crossover

Fair about the gpu, it was 6900xt, the last best discrete gpu that worked in macOS
 
Well, exactly, as I was saying earlier. Apple isn't just any company. It's not a component aggregator offering quick and efficient solutions in functional chassis for businesses.
Apple rose to the top of the industry thanks to design, and not just "object design" but also the "graphic design" of its operating system. Then, design and technology, or softwares, became intertwined.

Also, a computer, even though recent advances thanks to Arm have drastically changed the power consumption and efficiency of the calculations needed to run softwares, is defined by several machines. Just as there are electric city cars, sports cars, and SUVs, there are also utility vehicles, trucks, buses, and even trains.

What is a workstation? It's not a city car or a sports car. So, it's completely pointless to compare the single-core speed of the Mac mini's M4 to the single-core speed of the Mac Pro 7.1's Xeon. Why? Well, because just as the trunk of a small city car is quite limited, the Mac mini's trunk is equally so. And we expect a Mac Pro to be like a big truck. Certainly less maneuverable on city streets, but more durable for long journeys with a huge trunk. And if you'll allow me to extend the metaphor, this huge trunk is the number of PCIe lanes. And we put all sorts of cards on these lanes. So, the Mac Pro might seem slower than a Mac mini, but that doesn't matter to us users. We want a truck with a big trunk. What the Mac Studio is is a kind of SUV to which you can attach trailers. And we're told: but trailers via Thunderbolt are fantastic!
So Apple, which is a great company, could very well have continued making trucks, if you like. That's all I'm saying.

And for people who don't need trucks and never drive them to tell us that we don't need them, when we drive these trucks a lot, is quite funny.

What pci cards do you use in your Mac Pro?
 
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That's a complete non sequitur. Most people aren't familiar with the expensive workstation models of any computer manufacturer. I doubt many kids consider the HP Z series 'where's it's at', either. These are specialised professional machines, for doing work. Unless you're an engineer, 3D artist etc. you wouldn't come into contact with them.

You can call people who play video games nerds, but this sounds like cope. If Valve announced a new Steam translation layer that let Macs run Windows games, I'm sure lots of Mac users would take interest. They'd just be disappointed they'd need to spend £3-4K on their computer to get a decent GPU.

Mac’s can already run windows games,
But yes you do need to go up to the studio to get a decent gpu
 
I just wish they could have settled for an expanded board from the Studio with PCIe slots and put it in a decent case that was less overbuilt. It feels like it could have been achieved for way less premium over the Studio than what they tried to charge.

There are industries that want "Mac but with internal I/O expansion" and it's niche and low-volume, but it could have been served if they didn't put their level of ambition through the roof.
What pci cards do you use?
 
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Well, exactly, as I was saying earlier. Apple isn't just any company. It's not a component aggregator offering quick and efficient solutions in functional chassis for businesses.
Apple rose to the top of the industry thanks to design, and not just "object design" but also the "graphic design" of its operating system. Then, design and technology, or softwares, became intertwined.

Also, a computer, even though recent advances thanks to Arm have drastically changed the power consumption and efficiency of the calculations needed to run softwares, is defined by several machines. Just as there are electric city cars, sports cars, and SUVs, there are also utility vehicles, trucks, buses, and even trains.

What is a workstation? It's not a city car or a sports car. So, it's completely pointless to compare the single-core speed of the Mac mini's M4 to the single-core speed of the Mac Pro 7.1's Xeon. Why? Well, because just as the trunk of a small city car is quite limited, the Mac mini's trunk is equally so. And we expect a Mac Pro to be like a big truck. Certainly less maneuverable on city streets, but more durable for long journeys with a huge trunk. And if you'll allow me to extend the metaphor, this huge trunk is the number of PCIe lanes. And we put all sorts of cards on these lanes. So, the Mac Pro might seem slower than a Mac mini, but that doesn't matter to us users. We want a truck with a big trunk. What the Mac Studio is is a kind of SUV to which you can attach trailers. And we're told: but trailers via Thunderbolt are fantastic!
So Apple, which is a great company, could very well have continued making trucks, if you like. That's all I'm saying.

And for people who don't need trucks and never drive them to tell us that we don't need them, when we drive these trucks a lot, is quite funny.
The thing is though, that even people who used the PCIE extensions of the MacPro all openly admitted, and very well new, that the 2023 MP already significantly limited it’s usefulness to storage and specialty Audio cards.
The idea that Apple was ever going to expand an apple silicon based machine to allow for external third-party graphics cards was always a fantasy, and the idea that they were ever going to revive X86 on the Mac for a computer that sold an estimated less than 100,000 units even more so.
Again, this doesn’t mean that anyone is ‘happy’ about the decision, and simplifying anyone who thinks it was time for it to be discontinued down to that is just as reductive as those who simply say to replace your MacPro with a Studio and everything will work just fine.
But there really is no getting around the fact that the machine just did not make any sense in Apple‘s current product lineup, none at all.
You can literally go watch videos back from 2023 of the speced out M2Ultra Studio vs the MP, there was literally only one, single advantage of the MP, which was (already very limited) PCIE.
For $3000 extra (almost $4000 with wheels) and significantly higher power consumption.
To use your trunk metaphor, it’s like having the absolutely insane room of a trunk, but in the most bizarre shape imaginable that pretty much nothing actually fits. Sure you have all of the space, but you can’t put the vast majority of things you would regularly put in the trunk in there.
 
Mac’s can already run windows games,
But yes you do need to go up to the studio to get a decent gpu

It won't run ray-tracing only games like Doom: The Dark Ages or Indiana Jones and The Great Circle, though, nor Vulcan-only games like Doom Eternal, CS2 or Portal 2 (Doom 2016 can be made to work, but only on M5). And all of this requires messing around with Crossover, and sometimes hunting down patches too.

Performance on an unbinned M5 Max MBP seems very solid, at least at 1440p - but that's a £4K laptop. Plus, running modern games like FF7 Rebirth still requires upscaling and low / medium presets to get to ~60fps. So, Macs can game, but a similar cost PC would blow it away (in this regard).
 
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Mac is not a serious platform for computing. Never has been. It’s always been a toy. Nobody uses a Mac for real work.
As a lifelong Mac user, I use Mac (exclusively) for

• University work (I study engineering)
• Design
• Company work (I am a founder)
• Development of my own custom LLM from scratch (+pretraining) without the use of any open sourced projects

You've opened my eyes, truly, to the fact that I'm not doing any "real work". I will now go rethink my life. Thanks, KPOM! 🤣
 
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The discontinuation of the Mac Pro lineup reminds me of CES 2026.
The Consumer Electronics Show that had no consumer hardware to present from AMD, nvidia or Intel.
The focus was on AI software and datacenter hardware 🙄

Gamers Nexus and others reported on it, with far more uproar than I've seen so far on mac youtuber channels.
With the reduction of products, or price hikes on the PC side. hint: memory

The latest I have seen is that computer chips are next. Because of Helium shortage
 
Absolutely.
The MacPro is the computer that Steve Wozniak would love, and Steve Jobs likely found hideous, a necessary evil at the time.
Notice the MacPro was introduced in 2006, right around the time of Steve’s peak, and he handed it off to his marketing guy to introduce it. And then other than a 10 second slide at MacWorld 2008, the MP wasn’t even mentioned at another Apple Keynote until… 2013.
Steve gave 18 more keynotes after WWDC 2006 and didn’t even think to mention it but once.
Whatever teh Steve liked or not, he knew damn well that serious users need slots. See NeXT.
A rather popular request was a "not quite as pro" mac pro. Looking at the mac studio on my desk, if they offered a unit that cost $500-1k more and offered extra (preferably 4) m.2 nvme slots for changing out storage, I would've happily bought it. Even better if it offered better audio connectivity and more USB ports.

Beyond that, I think it would've been cool if they figured out how to offer 2nd class "RAM" like the ability to use DDR4/5 sticks as a hardware swap cache or something...
Smells like xMac 😂
Yeah I totally get that

I was certainly one of those people

I thought not being able to use a “real” gpu in macOS was the end of the world

Then I started playing the same games in my downtime in crossover on my studio (that I used to reboot in to windows to play on my previous “hackintosh” tower) and eventually forgot about it
Some of us need more than 1 GPU for things other than gaming.
How does that manage with VR headsets? Let's say you wanted to run Flight Sim 2020 in VR mode?

Edit: Just checked on the Crossover website, not listed, so most likely doesn't work.
Definitely picking up an AVP soon, will let you know.
Absolutely correct.
When Apple was purely a computer company, or even just a computer company that happened to make iPods, it made sense that their halo product was a top of the line workstation tower.
Today Apple is a consumer electronics, computer, and (let’s be honest) lifestyle company.
What makes a “halo product” for Apple today is going to be very, very different than what worked yesterday. Think Apple Vision Pro, the iPad Pro, even possibly the upcoming folding iPhone.
Something that is so expensive, overpowered/over engineered and over the top that the majority of customers are not going to even consider it within their purchasing options… but they want it.
I think the iPad Pro is the best example, its main criticism is that it does literally the same thing that every single other iPad does, and that’s correct. But it also has the best display apple has ever put in a product, their latest flagship chip, it is literally the thinnest product they have ever produced (outside of the Apple Card) and it is, rather people like to admit it or not, cool. It’s cool to hold, it’s cool to use, even if it’s not exactly everyone’s cup of tea.
It is literally the definition of a halo product, “a standout item in a company’s lineup that creates a strong positive impression and boosts the overall brand image, often driving interest and sales for other products in the portfolio.”
The MacPro arguably hasn’t been this in years, when is the last time anyone was inspired to purchase a cheaper Apple product because the MacPro exists?
A halo product is an expression of the current state of the art. In this case, it's the biggest, baddest, fastest, most powerful machine you know how to make. The Mac Pro is, and always has been the halo product. What is it now - a damn studio? 🤣
 
I think there’s a bit of generational bias here. While you and I may think of a Mac Pro as a halo model, my impression that younger generations are indifferent to it.

To them a MacBook Pro or Air is where it’s at.

Seems to me they associate desktop towers mostly with gaming nerds.
A Macbook Pro or Air is what they can afford.
 
A halo product is an expression of the current state of the art. In this case, it's the biggest, baddest, fastest, most powerful machine you know how to make. The Mac Pro is, and always has been the halo product. What is it now - a damn studio? 🤣
That is not what a halo product is at all, not even close, from the actual definition.
A halo product is a company’s standout or flagship item that boosts the image and sales of its other products. It often showcases the brand’s best technology or design, creating a positive “halo effect” that makes the rest of the lineup more appealing.
This hasn’t been the MacPro in years, arguably one could even say that it hasn’t been apple‘s halo product since 2007 when the iPhone was introduced.
The most impressive part of the 2006-2012 MacPros was whatever chips Intel had to put in them, not anything Apple did.
The 2013 MacPro might technically have been Apple’s halo product… For a little bit. But then it was eventually overshadowed by other significantly more impressive machiness technologically, like the first 5K iMac and the iPad Pro and much later the Apple Vision Pro, which if we are still talking about technological Marvel, the Halo product, the actual definition of a halo product, it still is. It is currently Apple‘s most technologically advanced product on the market, more technologically advanced than any MacPro ever was.
The MacPro was two things, Apple‘s most upgradable machine, and (until the 2023 version) Apple’s most powerful machine. But it was almost never their most technologically advanced machine, in fact it was pretty basic from an “impressive state of the Art technology” level. It was just a PC tower.
 
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