MP All Models So long, old friend.

[teh_hunterer]

Yup, and my opinion is that people who don't own, or use Mac Pros should not be posting opinions on whether Apple should have cancelled the product

Sounds like you just want your opinion to be acceptable and other people's opinions to be silenced.

Most people here wouldn't disagree with you. Where I feel it crosses a line, is when the conversation then becomes "A Mac Studio can do everything better, you don't need pci slots, you don't need GPUs, get with the future" etc.

If you actually had a substantive response to those arguments you would just respond with them instead of trying to make out anyone with that opinion is "crossing a line" and "should not be posting opinions".

Kinda like going to a memorial service for someone who died, and spending all your time talking about how the person's surviving (former) partner is better off with their new partner.

It's a computer.

 

[mode11]

I think there’s a bit of generational bias here. While you and I may think of a Mac Pro as a halo model, my impression that younger generations are indifferent to it.

To them a MacBook Pro or Air is where it’s at.

Seems to me they associate desktop towers mostly with gaming nerds.

That's a complete non sequitur. Most people aren't familiar with the expensive workstation models of any computer manufacturer. I doubt many kids consider the HP Z series 'where's it's at', either. These are specialised professional machines, for doing work. Unless you're an engineer, 3D artist etc. you wouldn't come into contact with them.

You can call people who play video games nerds, but this sounds like cope. If Valve announced a new Steam translation layer that let Macs run Windows games, I'm sure lots of Mac users would take interest. They'd just be disappointed they'd need to spend £3-4K on their computer to get a decent GPU.

 

[mode11]

It does feel like Apple's product managers put on the horse blinders and only seemed to care about people who professionally edit video while giving everyone else the middle finger. I'm still not sure why.

Because those customers can be well catered for with the Apple Silicon architecture. A few media engines, and they're golden. Other use cases e.g. lots of PCIe lanes, add-in GPUs etc. would require a complete reworking of the architecture and / or software stack. It's easier to just cede that market to Windows and concentrate on laptops.

Apple have always cherry-picked those parts of the markets they can make the most profit (as any business should). Windows just has a different business model, as an OS for standardised hardware.

 

[mattspace]

Most people aren't familiar with the expensive workstation models of any computer manufacturer.

I had to correct my accountant, who changed the $10,000 Mac Pro deduction item in my tax return, to a $1000 MacBook Pro, because they assumed I'd made a typo.

 

[zephonic]

There's plenty of forums that restrict posting to subforums to certain sections of their membership.

Yup, and my opinion is that people who don't own, or use Mac Pros should not be posting opinions on whether Apple should have cancelled the product, and whether it other products can do everything it did, or whether a Mac Studio or Mac Mini is "good enough" to cover it.

Following your logic, nobody should be allowed to comment on sports unless they played them professionally themselves, or have opinions on luxury cars they can never afford.

Or worse, it sounds like country club rules: “not our kind of people”.

I made a decision back in ‘22 to replace my cMP with an MBP. I don’t see why that disqualifies me from commenting in this forum.

Most people here wouldn't disagree with you. Where I feel it crosses a line, is when the conversation then becomes "A Mac Studio can do everything better, you don't need pci slots, you don't need GPUs, get with the future" etc.

It’s a fact, current Mac Studio outperforms yesterday-current Mac Pro. As for PCIe slots, who still makes PCIe products for Mac? Or GPU’s?

From your sig I see you have an Intel Mac Pro with an Afterburner card, and maybe you have storage in the other slots?

That’s great, but I’m afraid you are on borrowed time. And I don’t mean that snidely, it sucks to have Apple pull the rug out from under you.

Kinda like going to a memorial service for someone who died, and spending all your time talking about how the person's surviving (former) partner is better off with their new partner.

But it’s not, though. At the end of the day it’s just a computer.

 

[zephonic]

That's a complete non sequitur. Most people aren't familiar with the expensive workstation models of any computer manufacturer. I doubt many kids consider the HP Z series 'where's it's at', either. These are specialised professional machines, for doing work. Unless you're an engineer, 3D artist etc. you wouldn't come into contact with them.

You can call people who play video games nerds, but this sounds like cope. If Valve announced a new Steam translation layer that let Macs run Windows games, I'm sure lots of Mac users would take interest. They'd just be disappointed they'd need to spend £3-4K on their computer to get a decent GPU.

I think you confuse high-end workstations with “Halo model”. They are not necessarily the same thing.

 

[mode11]

But it’s not, though. At the end of the day it’s just a computer.

Yeah, @mattspace was making an analogy. He wasn't implying it's equivalent in seriousness to someone dying.

Saying 'it's just a computer' isn't the slam dunk you think it is. People spend a lot of their working lives on computers, and their choice of tools is important to them. It's not trivial, like the colour of a phone.

If an expandible computer is a priority, it means they face a stark choice between the form factor they have a strong preference for, and the OS they're at home with. Apple's direction (admittedly over a long time) means they can't have both, which is frustrating.

I think you confuse high-end workstations with “Halo model”. They are not necessarily the same thing.

Fair point. I skipped over that as I don't see the Mac Pro as a halo for regular consumers. It arguably is for the Mac platform, though. If Windows only came on laptops (or 'laptops in a box'), it would certainly be seen in a different light by many industries.

 

[mattspace]

It’s a fact, current Mac Studio outperforms yesterday-current Mac Pro. As for PCIe slots, who still makes PCIe products for Mac? Or GPU’s?

What's your performance metric? Running Intel-OS based VMs? Size of RAMDisks? Number of displays supported?

From your sig I see you have an Intel Mac Pro with an Afterburner card, and maybe you have storage in the other slots?

That’s great, but I’m afraid you are on borrowed time. And I don’t mean that snidely, it sucks to have Apple pull the rug out from under you.

I'll probably proxmox the system and keep macos for legacy workflows.

But it’s not, though. At the end of the day it’s just a computer.

It's the tool I use to do my work. The work that gives my life meaning. "Just" is doing a lot of lifting there.

 

[zephonic]

Saying 'it's just a computer' isn't the slam dunk you think it is.

I think you attribute sentiments to my posts that simply aren’t there. I’m not looking to slam dunk anyone.

I’m just here having a good-faith converstion.

If an expandible computer is a priority, it means they face a stark choice between the form factor they have a strong preference for, and the OS they're at home with. Apple's direction (admittedly over a long time) means they can't have both, which is frustrating.

Yes, and I understand that frustration all too well, as there was a time when I shared it.

But as the proverb says “being angry with someone is like drinking poison and expecting the other person to die”.

Apple is gonna Apple, we just gotta roll with it and make our choices accordingly.

Fair point. I skipped over that as I don't see the Mac Pro as a halo for regular consumers. It arguably is for the Mac platform, though. If Windows only came on laptops (or 'laptops in a box'), it would certainly be seen in a different light by many industries.

Frankly, I don’t think the Mac Pro has been a halo model for a long time. Apple does a lot of product placement in movies, shows and whatnot. It’s never a Mac Pro. Not even on their own shows.

 

[zephonic]

What's your performance metric? Running Intel-OS based VMs? Size of RAMDisks? Number of displays supported?

Fair enough. I went by benchmarks, but I concede that is only one part of the equation, and not a particularly big one at that.

It's the tool I use to do my work. The work that gives my life meaning. "Just" is doing a lot of lifting there.

Again, fair enough. I spend a lot of my life on the computer, too, and in your position I would be just as frustrated.

But still, it’s just a computer. You’ll adapt, you’ll be fine.

 

[Lounge vibes 05]

There's plenty of forums that restrict posting to subforums to certain sections of their membership.



Yup, and my opinion is that people who don't own, or use Mac Pros should not be posting opinions on whether Apple should have cancelled the product, and whether it other products can do everything it did, or whether a Mac Studio or Mac Mini is "good enough" to cover it.



Most people here wouldn't disagree with you. Where I feel it crosses a line, is when the conversation then becomes "A Mac Studio can do everything better, you don't need pci slots, you don't need GPUs, get with the future" etc.

Kinda like going to a memorial service for someone who died, and spending all your time talking about how the person's surviving (former) partner is better off with their new partner.

OK, but people are talking about computers, not partners. A pretty big difference there, at least there should be…

If anything, isn’t the most important voices those who once used a MacPro, some for many many years, and now have no need for one? They are literally the *reason* it was discontinued.
If the Studio, or any MacBook, wasn’t a viable replacement for the majority of customers who formally may have used a MacPro, if there was still some absolute advantage that the MacPro had that resulted in tons and tons of customers opting for it, Apple wouldn’t have discontinued it

 

[Lounge vibes 05]

I think you confuse high-end workstations with “Halo model”. They are not necessarily the same thing.

Absolutely correct.
When Apple was purely a computer company, or even just a computer company that happened to make iPods, it made sense that their halo product was a top of the line workstation tower.
Today Apple is a consumer electronics, computer, and (let’s be honest) lifestyle company.
What makes a “halo product” for Apple today is going to be very, very different than what worked yesterday. Think Apple Vision Pro, the iPad Pro, even possibly the upcoming folding iPhone.
Something that is so expensive, overpowered/over engineered and over the top that the majority of customers are not going to even consider it within their purchasing options… but they want it.
I think the iPad Pro is the best example, its main criticism is that it does literally the same thing that every single other iPad does, and that’s correct. But it also has the best display apple has ever put in a product, their latest flagship chip, it is literally the thinnest product they have ever produced (outside of the Apple Card) and it is, rather people like to admit it or not, cool. It’s cool to hold, it’s cool to use, even if it’s not exactly everyone’s cup of tea.
It is literally the definition of a halo product, “a standout item in a company’s lineup that creates a strong positive impression and boosts the overall brand image, often driving interest and sales for other products in the portfolio.”
The MacPro arguably hasn’t been this in years, when is the last time anyone was inspired to purchase a cheaper Apple product because the MacPro exists?

 

[mode11]

I think you attribute sentiments to my posts that simply aren’t there. I’m not looking to slam dunk anyone.

Didn't mean to be unfair, but saying 'it's just a computer' carries a little snark. Essentially, you're saying they're making a fuss about something unimportant. What else would the "just" imply?

Having said that, I'll be the first to admit that moving to Windows was not the ordeal I thought it could be when I was facing my own desktop transition.

Frankly, I don’t think the Mac Pro has been a halo model for a long time. Apple does a lot of product placement in movies, shows and whatnot. It’s never a Mac Pro. Not even on their own shows.

Sure, I've already acknowledged we're in agreement here. Advertising in shows and movies is for mass market consumers - which pro workstations have never been aimed at. Ditto for HP Z etc.

If anything, isn’t the most important voices those who once used a MacPro, some for many many years, and now have no need for one? They are literally the *reason* it was discontinued.

You're mistaking Apple's business preferences for the needs of customers. Apple doesn't sell printers anymore, either. Does this mean no one prints anything? Ditto wireless routers, screens bigger than 27", servers etc. etc.

If the Studio, or any MacBook, wasn’t a viable replacement for the majority of customers who formally may have used a MacPro, if there was still some absolute advantage that the MacPro had that resulted in tons and tons of customers opting for it, Apple wouldn’t have discontinued it

No. Apple stop selling something when there's not enough return on it to make it interesting for them. Those users don't necessarily buy Studios - they may just migrate to Windows or Linux. Apple is OK with that. Most of their cash comes from the iPhone anyway. Mac users in aggregate make them similar money to selling AirPods.

Macs are essentially laptops, or 'laptops in a box' (iMac / mini / Studio). The Mac Pro would be a whole other thing, all for the smallest proportion of their users. It's clear why they don't bother.

 

[mode11]

The MacPro arguably hasn’t been this in years, when is the last time anyone was inspired to purchase a cheaper Apple product because the MacPro exists?

How is any of this relevant? You and @zephonic are the ones going on about the Mac Pro being justified as a halo product. This is a strawman argument. No one else is saying Apple should keep making the Mac Pro, simply to inspire kids to buy iPads or Neos, with the dream of one day owning a workstation.

The reason people want the Mac Pro is that they'd like an expandible computer that runs macOS natively. That there is not the business case for Apple to do so is just a reflection on the strengths and weaknesses of their Apple Silicon strategy. AS is awesome for laptops, which are the majority of Mac sales, as well as being able to leverage all the investment in iPhone SoCs. I don't think anyone is saying Apple is being stupid, just that it's a shame that Apple has nothing for a certain type of user.

 

[teh_hunterer]

It's the tool I use to do my work. The work that gives my life meaning. "Just" is doing a lot of lifting there.

Mate 😂 you literally said "Kinda like going to a memorial service for someone who died, and spending all your time talking about how the person's surviving (former) partner is better off with their new partner." and you think this guy is doing heavy lifting by saying it's just a computer?

It's just a computer.

 

[zephonic]

Didn't mean to be unfair, but saying 'it's just a computer' carries a little snark. Essentially, you're saying they're making a fuss about something unimportant. What else would the "just" imply?

I really think that’s in the eye of the beholder.

How else should I have said that?

There was no snark on my part, and if you detected any, well, maybe that’s on you, then.

 

[teh_hunterer]

Didn't mean to be unfair, but saying 'it's just a computer' carries a little snark. Essentially, you're saying they're making a fuss about something unimportant. What else would the "just" imply?

He's saying it's just a computer, in response to this:

"Kinda like going to a memorial service for someone who died, and spending all your time talking about how the person's surviving (former) partner is better off with their new partner."

 

[mode11]

He's saying it's just a computer, in response to this:

"Kinda like going to a memorial service for someone who died, and spending all your time talking about how the person's surviving (former) partner is better off with their new partner."

You do understand how analogies work, yeah?

 

[teh_hunterer]

You do understand how analogies work, yeah?

If you did you would know that's a bad analogy. Especially from someone who is so worked up they want anyone they disagree with about the Mac Pro silenced.

And actually by making such a hyperbolic analogy and having the discussion focus on that, they are actually getting what they wanted - substantive discussion about this drowned out.

 

[Lounge vibes 05]

How is any of this relevant? You and @zephonic are the ones going on about the Mac Pro being justified as a halo product. This is a strawman argument.

Excuse me?
Neither of us were even the first to bring up the “halo product” angle thank you very much.

Looking at your post history, it's clear you wouldn't know what to do with a Mac Pro if a maxed out one landed on your desk, so...

There's real value in having a halo product. What is it now?

And so that question has been answered, and the answer is that the MacPro hasn’t been a halo product since… 2014 maybe? 2017 at the latest. Because Apple is just not that company anymore.

 

[Lounge vibes 05]

Mate 😂 you literally said "Kinda like going to a memorial service for someone who died, and spending all your time talking about how the person's surviving (former) partner is better off with their new partner." and you think this guy is doing heavy lifting by saying it's just a computer?

It's just a computer.

Completely agree here, even if we are going for the angle that it is simply an analogy, it is a wildly inappropriate one, and not even close to equivalent.
If you are honestly having similar feelings to Apple announcing the discontinuation of a computer to a partner passing away thats just… I don’t even know what that is, but I know it’s not good. And certainly not healthy.

 

[mode11]

Completely agree here, even if we are going for the angle that it is simply an analogy, it is a wildly inappropriate one, and not even close to equivalent.
If you are honestly having similar feelings to Apple announcing the discontinuation of a computer to a partner passing away thats just… I don’t even know what that is, but I know it’s not good. And certainly not healthy.

The analogy was more about the insensitivity of the person making light of someone's passing. Like - 'no worries, just get another one'. Sure, the final passing of Mac towers into the history books isn't as dramatic (I would / did just get a PC). But the thing about the Mac platform is that you can only buy hardware from one supplier. This has its perks, but also downsides.

There's a long history on the Mac Rumors forum of people being upset about the discontinuation of a model (e.g. the 27" iMac, Mac Pro, 12" MacBook, iPhone mini) and other people saying "just get an xxxx - it's just as good. Apple knows best - if it was worth making, they would". It's easy to say until it happens to a product you like using, and people queue up to tell you to dry your eyes.

 

[con2apple]

This is pretty disgusting if you ask me, but perhaps not surprising. This company has never believed in making a desktop workstation accessible to many people. Shameful

Quite the opposite: Apple has absolutely no interest in professional users and caters only to the masses. People who mindlessly buy a new Mac every year.

I think the last Mac Pro was the result of the “Pro faction” within the company making one last stand. They were outvoted by the “We’ll boost profits through retail customers”-majority.
There’s no other way to explain a computer that’s marketed to professionals but was absolutely useless.

Even Apple didn't know what to do with it and never used it internally.

 

[con2apple]

Mate 😂 you literally said "Kinda like going to a memorial service for someone who died, and spending all your time talking about how the person's surviving (former) partner is better off with their new partner." and you think this guy is doing heavy lifting by saying it's just a computer?

It's just a computer.

You seem to have forgotten what kind of bubble you're operating in here.

 

[jabbawok]

I did my entire PhD (and continuing postdoc) research on it. 4 publications, 13 conference abstracts, and 1 lead inventor patent. I guess that doesn’t count as real work.

I designed countless industrial control systems and wrote the software many more on my 5,1 then a 2018 i7mini and now an M4 mini. Fortunately the people that pay me think it’s real work.