So, now that the D4 is officially announced...

[sapporobaby]

I hear complaints that the D4 is just not enough. For the sake of argument what is enough? It seems to be boarding on whining. It all comes down to two things in my book. Either buy it or don't buy it. Considering the D3S cost almost the same when it dropped, I do not see the price as a major issue. Personally I will get a D4 because I feel the improvements are worth it. How in the hell do people really expect to shoot 36 megapixels at 11 frames a second? The D4 is not a studio camera, but for those who shoot events, sports, photojournalism, etc....

 

[VirtualRain]

If 12800 ISO is fairly clean and usable, then that's worth a lot of money... Particularly if you're upgrading from a body that tops out at 3200 ISO... For example, it's like upgrading all your f4 lenses to f2 - without the ridiculously thin DOF! How much would it cost to upgrade a few f4 lenses to f2? Or a few f2.8 lenses to f1.4? What's a 70-200 f1.4 cost again? Oh, that's right

 

[avro707]

If 12800 ISO is fairly clean and usable, then that's worth a lot of money... Particularly if you're upgrading from a body that tops out at 3200 ISO... For example, it's like upgrading all your f4 lenses to f2 - without the ridiculously thin DOF! How much would it cost to upgrade a few f4 lenses to f2? Or a few f2.8 lenses to f1.4? What's a 70-200 f1.4 cost again? Oh, that's right

ISO12800 is pretty good even on the D3S, and lots of people here in Australia spent their AUD$7000 to upgrade to those, even buying multiple cameras.

You have to try a D4 or a D3S for a while to understand the value of those cameras.

 

[doug in albq]

there is an old saying in the cycling / mountain biking community...

90% RIDER...

which means, even the world's best bike only contributes 10% plus or minus to the overall performance.

________________________

so, 90% PHOTOGRAPHER!


(I have a D40...! but I did upgrade the wheels with a 17-70 Sigma 2.8-4.5)

 

[sapporobaby]

there is an old saying in the cycling / mountain biking community...

90% RIDER...

which means, even the world's best bike only contributes 10% plus or minus to the overall performance.

________________________

so, 90% PHOTOGRAPHER!


(I have a D40...! but I did upgrade the wheels with a 17-70 Sigma 2.8-4.5)

Being a saying doesn't necessarily make it true. I am a former bike racer who's use Campy Gruppos, Mavic rims, and Colnago frames. I can say with confidence that it is more than 10% on the gear. You are trying to compare your 4 or 5 year old DX camera with a high-end professional FX camera. Not even close.

 

[jablko]

My cousin gets fantastic pics that make me say, "I wish I'd shot that." I'm shooting with a DSLR, she's shooting with an aging digital point and shoot, and sometimes, her cellphone. She just has an eye for composition that I envy.

I completely agree, it is largely about the photographer, and also about the moment.

I recently saw a blog post of the "10 Most Influential Photos in History." There were a few from Vietnam, a famine shot from Ethopia, etc. Really moving stuff that actually did change the world through awareness. Only one or two of those images were what I'd consider in focus, clear and crisp. The power of those images were in what they captured, not necessarily how well they were captured. Would they have been less influential if the photographer had used better equipment? No. But if the photographer had been fretting over his/her tech and missed the shot, the world would be a worse place today.

I have a friend who is a pro photographer who covers up all the branding on his equipment with black tape. He says the reason is people always want to talk about gear with him. He'll have clients who assume if they buy the same stuff he has, they won't need to hire a photographer. When he's shooting an event with other photographers, they want to know what gear he's using rather than how he's using it. To him, the branding on his cameras detract from his role as the photographer.

And yet, he still has the top-of-the-line, newest gear (albeit Canon). So, it must be a little bit about the tech, even if it's only worthwhile in the hands of a photographer who frames and captures the moment.

Better equipment has a role, and that is to make it easier to get the perfect shot. I'm really excited about what improved high ISO performance means, not because I'm a tech nerd in an arms race (though I am), but because I remember shooting at a friend's wedding when she (the bride) decided at the last minute to make the service candlelit. My camera could not cope. A D4 might have saved the situation (for that matter, maybe a D3s would have, I'm not a pro so I can't commit that much money to my hobby).

For my uses, investing in a D4 wouldn't be financially responsible. And I'm guessing the vast majority of people are in the same boat. But for many professional photographers, the math will work out for them and they'll be upgrading, even if the feature bump was incremental rather than revolutionary, because getting the best shot of the right moment will pay for the gear.

 

[danahn17]

so, 90% PHOTOGRAPHER!

(I have a D40...! but I did upgrade the wheels with a 17-70 Sigma 2.8-4.5)

I agree to a certain extent that the photographer is more important than the gear.... but I think you are overstating it a little bit. There comes a point where one's techniques and ability surpass what the camera can give you.

You'd never use the D40 for certain applications (like sports photography, war photography, low light situations, etc). Yes you may manage to take great photos in those application with a D40.. but the camera will certainly hinder your ability to capture the moments. Most of those who are going to buy the D4 will genuinely need / want the features the camera has not because they think it'll magically make their photos better but because it allows them to capture photos more easily by not having to worry about how to work around a camera's shortcomings.

 

[avro707]

I have a friend who is a pro photographer who covers up all the branding on his equipment with black tape. He says the reason is people always want to talk about gear with him.

The black tape is pointless - unless you stick a card-board box around the whole thing. Pro DSLRs look like pro-DSLRs and no amount of tape over the logos is going to fool anyone with even the slightest bit of knowledge about cameras.

It goes with using those kinds of cameras. Even a Nikon D80 with a 80-400 VR is going to get people asking about it.

Most of those who are going to buy the D4 will genuinely need / want the features the camera has not because they think it'll magically make their photos better but because it allows them to capture photos more easily by not having to worry about how to work around a camera's shortcomings.

Better to learn how to push your existing camera to the limits, and then upgrade to a better one once that is done. And then push the limits with that one.

 

[VirtualRain]

Better to learn how to push your existing camera to the limits, and then upgrade to a better one once that is done. And then push the limits with that one.

I really don't understand this statement which I hear a lot. I gather it implies that noob's or even amateurs can't possibly push a high-end DSLR to the limits. If that's the intent, I totally disagree. It doesn't take much to push a camera to the limits when shooting in low light without tripod or flash. And you don't need to be some kind of pro to want to do that. I think anyone here could easily push a camera with 12,800 ISO to the limit very easily in the evening.

there is an old saying in the cycling / mountain biking community...

90% RIDER...

which means, even the world's best bike only contributes 10% plus or minus to the overall performance.

________________________

so, 90% PHOTOGRAPHER!


(I have a D40...! but I did upgrade the wheels with a 17-70 Sigma 2.8-4.5)

This is a bad analogy IMHO. Like I said above, I think any noob can push a high-ISO DSLR to the limits in low light situations. A high-end camera can do wonder's in anyone's hands in this regard.

I think there are four essential ingredients to great photography... (1) Great gear designed for the task (2) A great eye for composure (3) Dedication/patience to get the shot (4) Good post processing tools/experience. You will not get the best photo without all 4. A few of the folks that post regularly here have them all and I doubt they could get the same results with a camera phone. So while there are diminishing returns and you can buy more camera/lens than you need, it can also be a critical element to success even for amateurs depending on their subject.

 

[avro707]

I really don't understand this statement which I hear a lot. I gather it implies that noob's or even amateurs can't possibly push a high-end DSLR to the limits. If that's the intent, I totally disagree. It doesn't take much to push a camera to the limits when shooting in low light without tripod or flash. And you don't need to be some kind of pro to want to do that. I think anyone here could easily push a camera with 12,800 ISO to the limit very easily in the evening.

What it is meaning is that you don't just grab a high end camera and expect magic, that's what a lot of people mean - and probably what I should have wrote.

Like I said above, I think any noob can push a high-ISO DSLR to the limits in low light situations. A high-end camera can do wonder's in anyone's hands in this regard.

I don't agree. You still need to know what you are doing. A high ISO DSLR (eg, D7000, D700, etc) isn't just a magic tool.

 

[VirtualRain]

What it is meaning is that you don't just grab a high end camera and expect magic, that's what a lot of people mean - and probably what I should have wrote.



I don't agree. You still need to know what you are doing. A high ISO DSLR (eg, D7000, D700, etc) isn't just a magic tool.

I get what you are saying, but in a restaurant or bar... put a D4 with a f1.4 prime in the hands of an amateur vs. a D3000 with an 18-55 kit lens and tell me who can get better pictures. Just saying... gear does matter.

 

[El Cabong]

I get what you are saying, but in a restaurant or bar... put a D4 with a f1.4 prime in the hands of an amateur vs. a D3000 with an 18-55 kit lens and tell me who can get better pictures. Just saying... gear does matter.

Depending on the level of the amateur, there might a fair number of missed shots while that person spends time figuring out how to make the lens zoom, and how to activate the pop-up flash.

 

[sapporobaby]

What it is meaning is that you don't just grab a high end camera and expect magic, that's what a lot of people mean - and probably what I should have wrote.



I don't agree. You still need to know what you are doing. A high ISO DSLR (eg, D7000, D700, etc) isn't just a magic tool.

I disagree here. I bought the D3S before I knew how to really get the most out of it. Prior to that I had a seldom used D300S. All at once I decided to plop the cash down for the D3S, and the Nikon Trinity Lens series. On basic program mode, in a dark room the camera alone will out perform just about any professional or consumer DSLR hands down. After a year or more of shooting with the D3S, I am confident enough to make the jump to the D4 and will do so once it is avail for sale.

 

[seenew]

I know professionals have certain needs but I am targeting my question towards "amateurs (=do not make money off their shooting) and enthusiasts.

you answered your own question. this camera is not targeted at you, it is targeted at professionals.

 

[sapporobaby]

you answered your own question. this camera is not targeted at you, it is targeted at professionals.

Disagree again here. I am not a professional but am inclined to eventually move into that direction. I have sold a photo or two here but my livelihood does not rely on it. I plan to get a D4 simply for several reasons: 1. I want one, 2. I want one, 3. I want one, 4. I can afford one, 5. And so on. Cameras are for whatever you want them to be.

 

[seenew]

Disagree again here. I am not a professional but am inclined to eventually move into that direction. I have sold a photo or two here but my livelihood does not rely on it. I plan to get a D4 simply for several reasons: 1. I want one, 2. I want one, 3. I want one, 4. I can afford one, 5. And so on. Cameras are for whatever you want them to be.

target consumer is just that, the target consumer. it is not a concept that excludes everyone else. not an absolute. there are always exceptions, and it appears you're one of them.

 

[sapporobaby]

target consumer is just that, the target consumer. it is not a concept that excludes everyone else. not an absolute. there are always exceptions, and it appears you're one of them.

We can agree to disagree here because no one defined: Professional. Are you considering a professional someone that makes a living taking photos or are you saying someone that has comparable skills as a paid professional. I know several highly skilled non-professionals that will give paid professionals a run for their money in skill level who have decided the D4 is the camera for them. Professional or no, the D4 is aimed at people who can afford them. I am sure if you put a D4 on sale for 3000 dollars or less, you would have some non-professionals jumping on them. Very few people would say: "no, no. I am not a professional. This camera is not right for me".

 

[trjwv]

I have to agree with sapporobaby. If the D4 was priced at 3K, then a lot of the people saying negative statements about someone pre-ordering it would also have it on order. Terry White sums it up nicely on his blog...read here...
http://terrywhite.com/techblog/archives/9526
I also am not a full time, so-called professional, and while I do make money on photography, I have a full time job which pays my bills and offers me a lot of leisure time for my photography. I also have the D4 on pre-order at B&H and can't wait to receive it. Two years ago I posted on this forum "my wife bought me a D3S" and everyone tore me apart with the same criticism. But guess what, I love my D3S and so glad I was blessed to receive it. Is the D4 $6000.00 better than the D3S? Who knows but I look at it this way. I just sold my D3S on Ebay for $4200.00. So now I have traded up to a D4 for $1800.00 plus a XQD card and XQD card reader, which I also have on pre-order at Adorama. So for the ones who want to post negative comments, who cares. I buy what I want and enjoy it to the fullest. My money, my decision...

 

[sapporobaby]

I have to agree with sapporobaby. If the D4 was priced at 3K, then a lot of the people saying negative statements about someone pre-ordering it would also have it on order. Terry White sums it up nicely on his blog...read here...
http://terrywhite.com/techblog/archives/9526
I also am not a full time, so-called professional, and while I do make money on photography, I have a full time job which pays my bills and offers me a lot of leisure time for my photography. I also have the D4 on pre-order at B&H and can't wait to receive it. Two years ago I posted on this forum "my wife bought me a D3S" and everyone tore me apart with the same criticism. But guess what, I love my D3S and so glad I was blessed to receive it. Is the D4 $6000.00 better than the D3S? Who knows but I look at it this way. I just sold my D3S on Ebay for $4200.00. So now I have traded up to a D4 for $1800.00 plus a XQD card and XQD card reader, which I also have on pre-order at Adorama. So for the ones who want to post negative comments, who cares. I buy what I want and enjoy it to the fullest. My money, my decision...

Best post ever. Enjoy that +1.

 

[HBOC]

is anyone going to get that? There is no way i can afford that camera.. EVER but the 85mm lens looks mighty nice as well, and that i can consider.

here is my question though. Every Camera iteration is better than the last. Yet we have proof that you can take awesome and stunning images with a few year old equipment (Doylem you are still the king there). But then everyone seems to want more and more. Are people even learning to use the equipment anymore? Do we really need all that technology? Don't get me wrong, I am drooling over that camera as well but when i think rationally about it, the only thing that would help me in any way over what i shoot now, is the ultra high ISO.. otherwise personally i don't see shelling out that much cash. I know professionals have certain needs but I am targeting my question towards "amateurs (=do not make money off their shooting) and enthusiasts.

I hope to upgrade cameras this year. It IS SAFE to say there is NO ONE on THIS planet better than me who HASN'T made ANY money on photography! I even have prints made from WCI and Millers'....

So to all the naysayers, a 10 year old 1Ds and 30 year old Tokina 17mm is still valid.... ...


BLOG

https://plus.google.com/u/0/117926221729595708017/posts?hl=en

do i have a chip on my shoulder.. absolutely.. photographers have to!

BTW, taken with an old ass 1Ds + 1983 Tokina 17mm 3.5 RMC. manual focused, single image no filters.. 1Dx + Nikon 14-24.

 

[sapporobaby]

I hope to upgrade cameras this year. It IS SAFE to say there is NO ONE on THIS planet better than me who HASN'T made ANY money on photography! I even have prints made from WCI and Millers'....

So to all the naysayers, a 10 year old 1Ds and 30 year old Tokina 17mm is still valid.... ...


BLOG

https://plus.google.com/u/0/117926221729595708017/posts?hl=en

Image

do i have a chip on my shoulder.. absolutely.. photographers have to!

BTW, taken with an old ass 1Ds + 1983 Tokina 17mm 3.5 RMC. manual focused, single image no filters.. 1Dx + Nikon 14-24.

What's your point? As for photographers having chips on their shoulders, maybe you should speak about yourself and not pawn yourself off on others.

 

[avro707]

Depending on the level of the amateur, there might a fair number of missed shots while that person spends time figuring out how to make the lens zoom, and how to activate the pop-up flash.

Bingo! It will take them a very long time to work out how to use the pop-up flash on a D3, D3s, D3x or D4. (what's the bet someone will ask how to do it?)

Meanwhile, the Australian price is known: A stinging AUD$9,999

My god, I could fly to America with a return plane ticket, pay the customs duty charges and still have money to spare. That is a rip-off!

 

[sapporobaby]

Bingo! It will take them a very long time to work out how to use the pop-up flash on a D3, D3s, D3x or D4. (what's the bet someone will ask how to do it?)

Meanwhile, the Australian price is announced: A stinging AUD$9,999

My god, I could fly to America with a return plane ticket, pay the customs duty charges and still have money to spare. That is a rip-off!

Fixed...

 

[avro707]

There no popup flash on the D3, D3S, D3X, or D4. Do either of you know what you're talking about? You are WAY in over your head and more so with each successive post. Quit while you're behind.

I was being sarcastic - I knew someone wouldn't get it - and it sure didn't take long. That's entirely the reason it would take a long time, because it isn't there... Gosh - do I have to put it in big bold letters to make it obvious...

And I'm sure the other person was being sarcastic too.

 

[sapporobaby]

Fixed...