So what exactly makes these not "Pro"?

[maflynn]

what people are asking for here - professional workstation

I disagree,
I consider myself a professional, and the latest batch of Macs are ill fitting for me. I'm not looking for a computer to compute the mass of the universe or sequence the entire genome of the human species, but rather allow me to work as efficiently as I could with my 2012 rMBP. I cannot, the keyboard is inferior, the SD and HDMI slots are missing, and the risk of damage because of the lack of magsafe is a major issue.

To summarize, if I were to upgrade from my 4 1/2 old laptop, I would expect to enjoy improvements, which is simply not the case with the latest MBPs

 

[spacebro]

It's been somewhat covered here but again, what people are asking for here - professional workstation replacements - is just not something that Apple has ever built. I get that there is probably a small minority of people for whom the lack of 32GB is an issue - but honestly speaking - how many of the complex workflows described here would benefit from the extra ram, but not be hung up by the processor and GPU limitations of a mobile device? None of these devices - whether the MBP or the true workstation replacements that Dell/Lenovo/HP, etc make are any good at sustained workloads - they all throttle. The intersection of those people who need 32GB of RAM but can make do with mobile processors and >50W TDP graphics cards has to be very small. The vast majority of people with that kind of serious workload will do their primary work on a proper workstation - and many of those people - if they supplement with a MBP - will want it to be light and mobile.

Apple doesn't cater to every niche. They focus on a couple of ranges and try to produce the best combination of factors that appeals to the widest number of users. Take a look at the threads that are popping up now of people who have looked for a Windows alternative and come to the realization that they all have some rather unappealing downsides. Apple continues to do what they do best - put together a cohesive package that won't be perfect - but has a smaller number of serious downsides than most anything else on the market.

The 2012 rmbp was a professional workstation replacement. It had DDR3 with 16gb ram. Today's equivalent would be DDR4 with 64gb ram. Apple converted a lot of people in 2012. 4 years later we are using all of the 16gb, swap space is almost always being used and performance sucks in that situation. Surprise! The max ram is STILL 16gb all to save 1mm thickness. Not only is there no reason to upgrade to this machine, it creates a strong reason to upgrade to a pc laptop. But go ahead and pretend that all these mac loyalists don't know what they are talking about when they are being forced to switch to a pc.

 

[prospervic]

Inserting just one word will stop all this argument, insult and snark: these new MBPs are not "pro" VIDEO machines (according to some).

 

[zhenya]

The 2012 rmbp was a professional workstation replacement. It had DDR3 with 16gb ram. Today's equivalent would be DDR4 with 64gb ram. Apple converted a lot of people in 2012. 4 years later we are using all of the 16gb, swap space is almost always being used and performance sucks in that situation. Surprise! The max ram is STILL 16gb all to save 1mm thickness. Not only is there no reason to upgrade to this machine, it creates a strong reason to upgrade to a pc laptop. But go ahead and pretend that all these mac loyalists don't know what they are talking about when they are being forced to switch to a pc.

If you need or want that much RAM you are asking for something that is at the extreme tail end of use cases. For 99% of users, RAM needs have leveled out over the past 5 years. I was ordering 'professional' laptops in 2012 with 8-16GB of RAM, and we continue to order laptops today with 8-16GB RAM. If your use case is VM's - 16GB RAM would have been every bit as limiting in 2012 as it is today. I'm not saying that you don't know what you need - but rather that Apple has never really catered to such use cases with their laptops. It could very well be that it's your needs that have changed - moving you outside of the realm of Apple's target design.
[doublepost=1478612033][/doublepost]

I disagree,
I consider myself a professional, and the latest batch of Macs are ill fitting for me. I'm not looking for a computer to compute the mass of the universe or sequence the entire genome of the human species, but rather allow me to work as efficiently as I could with my 2012 rMBP. I cannot, the keyboard is inferior, the SD and HDMI slots are missing, and the risk of damage because of the lack of magsafe is a major issue.

To summarize, if I were to upgrade from my 4 1/2 old laptop, I would expect to enjoy improvements, which is simply not the case with the latest MBPs

Those are really preferences more than changes that are truly problematic. You were able to recently change your workflow entirely from MacOS to Windows, IIRC. That is much more disruptive to one's efficiency than adapting to a new keyboard (which most of us have done every couple of years for decades) or needing to carry a couple of different cables. Surprisingly the hundreds of millions of PC laptops that have shipped over the years without magsafe have done so without an epidemic of laptops crashing to the floor in homes and offices everywhere.

 

[Ethosik]

The 2012 rmbp was a professional workstation replacement. It had DDR3 with 16gb ram. Today's equivalent would be DDR4 with 64gb ram. Apple converted a lot of people in 2012. 4 years later we are using all of the 16gb, swap space is almost always being used and performance sucks in that situation. Surprise! The max ram is STILL 16gb all to save 1mm thickness. Not only is there no reason to upgrade to this machine, it creates a strong reason to upgrade to a pc laptop. But go ahead and pretend that all these mac loyalists don't know what they are talking about when they are being forced to switch to a pc.

It is not just for space. Battery life is also a factor. The 2012 MBP only specced at 7 hours of battery life. When I am working on a video and it is exporting, my 2013 rMBP battery only lasts an hour. This is not very good. We NEED more battery life. I would rather have more battery life than more RAM for a LAPTOP.

 

[maflynn]

Those are really preferences more than changes that are truly problematic. You were able to recently change your workflow entirely from MacOS to Windows, IIRC. That is much more disruptive to one's efficiency than adapting to a new keyboard (which most of us have done every couple of years for decades) or needing to carry a couple of different cables.

The move to windows was less disruptive then you think. Lightroom in windows works much like Lightroom in OS X. I use Windows in the office, so I'm used to switch my brain to OS X based to windows based

Side note: What's odd, was I trying out Capture One as a Lightroom replacement and its windows version seems different enough then its OS X version. For OS X, I can import different catalogs or sessions. In Windows, I only have the ability to import images, seems odd, but that's why I'm trying the software out before I buy it.

Surprisingly the hundreds of millions of PC laptops that have shipped over the years without magsafe have done so without an epidemic of laptops crashing to the floor in homes and offices everywhere.

Alex Lindsey was on the Macbreak weekly podcast and echo's my sentiments exactly. He travels, a lot more then I do and he had the same concern. Just because we don't see news reports of laptops being dragged to their death doesn't mean its not happening. I mean, do you expect to see a news story on Engadet about dell laptops being pulled down because of their power cord? Not likely.

My Surface Book has an easy detach magnetic power connector and it actually saved that laptop recently when I was away in October. The issue is not clumsy people as much as the laptop being plugged in and having a high traffic location as you try to work. In hotel rooms, conferences and shows, there's no way to keep the laptop plugged in away from foot traffic at times.

 

[zhenya]

Alex Lindsey was on the Macbreak weekly podcast and echo's my sentiments exactly. He travels, a lot more then I do and he had the same concern. Just because we don't see news reports of laptops being dragged to their death doesn't mean its not happening. I mean, do you expect to see a news story on Engadet about dell laptops being pulled down because of their power cord? Not likely.

My Surface Book has an easy detach magnetic power connector and it actually saved that laptop recently when I was away in October. The issue is not clumsy people as much as the laptop being plugged in and having a high traffic location as you try to work. In hotel rooms, conferences and shows, there's no way to keep the laptop plugged in away from foot traffic at times.

I travel extensively, manage a computer network of engineers who travel extensively. In 25 years we have never lost a single laptop to a power cord issue that magsafe could have prevented. Not one.

Magsafe was a really nice, elegant design. But so is Thunderbolt 3. And keeping magsafe along side 4 more ports that can perform the same function would have been superfluous. And that redundancy is anything but elegant.

 

[jackoatmon]

these new MBPs are not "pro" VIDEO machines (according to some).

Well, this is a weird angle to come from since these appear to be the first MBPs that can handle 4K video editing, thanks to the Radeon Pro 460.

So I would say video creation is the main industry that this laptop represents a quantum leap forward for. The 2015 and earlier just aren't realistic options for video editing.

 

[maflynn]

I travel extensively, manage a computer network of engineers who travel extensively. In 25 years we have never lost a single laptop to a power cord issue that magsafe could have prevented. Not one.

Yet, its a very real problem imo, it was a great innovative solution to a problem. You're spending 2k for a laptop, you don't want to see that dragged to its death due to a silly cord - just my $.02

 

[prospervic]

Well, this is a weird angle to come from since these appear to be the first MBPs that can handle 4K video editing, thanks to the Radeon Pro 460.

So I would say video creation is the main industry that this laptop represents a quantum leap forward for. The 2015 and earlier just aren't realistic options for video editing.

Precisely. Which is why I said "according to some".
The majority of the "pros" on here wailing and gnashing their teeth haven't even used the machine yet!

 

[0x100]

The screen on the Pro blows away the screen on the Air. Seems like that'd be important to an author (since they'd be staring at it a lot)!

Upgrade the screen on the air then. Don't do like Apple did and hold back the pro instead.

 

[BenTrovato]

Again with this professional debate. It's almost 2017, there's no way one machine can suffice for all the "professionals" out there. Apple uses Pro as a marketing term, stop thinking it applies to professional workers.

 

[joeblow7777]

What makes anything "Pro" or not "Pro"? It's a marketing term that people take way too seriously. There are way too many professions/professionals to label a devices well suited or not suited for all of them.

 

[airshu]

arguing over semantics to justify a crippled machine. yes some people dont need much in a laptop. yes some people need more than they should expect in a laptop. but this machine should deliver improved and up to date performance that reflects the expectations and needs of users and improves productivity for all and capability for some

in the least demanding use case for this laptop, it should at least be easy and versatile to use. dongles get in the way of this, because now plugging in a usb share some large files is more of a hassle than it has been since we had to keep stacks of dvd-rs ready to burn

in the most demanding use case, it should give users greater flexibility. there are people for whom throwing more power into a machine actually does make a difference, and a faster macbook can be the difference between throwing more things into a comfortable workflow or limiting the way they work just to keep things humming along

why push the future on people who dont care if they have yesterdays speed, and why give more physical mobility to people while technologically restricting them


(side note: i guess everyone looks at media users making 4k videos and developers runnings a hundred things at once. personally i look at design engineers, making fully simulated and testable models of anything from coffee mugs to airplanes to artificial hips to skyscrapers. every spare bit of speed can be used or turned into a new feature)
[doublepost=1478621299][/doublepost]theres also this video of whoever this is not being able to plug his equipment into the new machines without things breaking. this is just weird

 

[jclardy]

Because there is no SD card slot that all pro's use. Except for those with Canon 5D's. Or 1D's. Or RED cameras. Or black magic, or DJI drones. Hmm...wait, maybe these are just not as good at being prosumer laptops anymore...

 

[agaskew]

I'm a Pro, in the sense that I use my 2014 rMBP all day, every day for work. It is used mainly for building VMs, and then running 2, 3 or even 4 VMs concurrently, as well as MS-Office tasks. The VMs are Server VMs, eg Redhat 7 and/or Windows Server 2012, running databases and commercial software. Very often I need to run one VM with 8-10Gb RAM allocated, then another one or two with 2 or 3Gb allocated. The rMBP runs in clamshell on my desk, with 2 DP monitors, an Apple USB keyboard, BT mouse, headset, and USB Ethernet/USB3 port dongle because my Wifi sucks. When going on site with a customer, I can literally put everything to sleep, arrive on site, wake everything up and run demos of server grade solutions. 99% of the time, HDMI exists for the on site projector, the rest of the time its VGA.

Even if that's an edge case, its a valid use case for me and a few of my colleagues. We do not want to be setting things up on workstations and then copying them to laptops for portability. Performance wise there is usually no problem, as the fast SSD makes a massive difference. TBH I'm not too worried about having more than 16Gb RAM because we are trying to get to cloud based set ups. But these cost money to run or store, plus some customers promise good internet connectivity but often it doesn't exist when you arrive.

What makes the new rMBP awkward is the requirement to swap out all that connectivity by spending more. To add insult to injury there isnt even a power cable in the box. What really makes it non-Pro IMO, in other words what looks dumb in front of potential customers, is that daft coloured touchbar thing. Just give us a MacBook Ultra already, 32Gb RAM BTO, matte screen, Loads of different ports and a bit thicker with a ****-off battery!

 

[CodeSpyder]

I do a lot of WORK on my 2013 rMBP from video editing, audio creation, and programming. I am also able to do a lot of work on an iMac with 8GB of RAM. Are these tasks not even possible to do on the new systems? Does Final Cut, Logic, and Xcode just fail to run at all? What makes these not Pro machines like everyone is saying? I can't even write one line of code? I can't even edit a 720p video? I can't even produce a 5 second audio clip?

The late-2016 MBPs are MacBook Pro machines according to Apple. They have improved ram, super fast ssd and a great new display among other improvements. Anybody that says these are not MacBook Pro machines, is missing the point. If they are not your definition of a pro machine, then non of the previous MacBook Pro computers were pro machines. At some point, you have to work on a desktop to do what you need to do. These approach desktop performance, but they aren't desktop devices. They are portable. That's a big factor. If you are just going to sit your MBP on your desk the whole time, then get a desktop computer instead.

 

[New_Mac_Smell]

arguing over semantics to justify a crippled machine. yes some people dont need much in a laptop. yes some people need more than they should expect in a laptop. but this machine should deliver improved and up to date performance that reflects the expectations and needs of users and improves productivity for all and capability for some

in the least demanding use case for this laptop, it should at least be easy and versatile to use. dongles get in the way of this, because now plugging in a usb share some large files is more of a hassle than it has been since we had to keep stacks of dvd-rs ready to burn

in the most demanding use case, it should give users greater flexibility. there are people for whom throwing more power into a machine actually does make a difference, and a faster macbook can be the difference between throwing more things into a comfortable workflow or limiting the way they work just to keep things humming along

why push the future on people who dont care if they have yesterdays speed, and why give more physical mobility to people while technologically restricting them


(side note: i guess everyone looks at media users making 4k videos and developers runnings a hundred things at once. personally i look at design engineers, making fully simulated and testable models of anything from coffee mugs to airplanes to artificial hips to skyscrapers. every spare bit of speed can be used or turned into a new feature)
[doublepost=1478621299][/doublepost]theres also this video of whoever this is not being able to plug his equipment into the new machines without things breaking. this is just weird

I don't see the difference between plugging in an HDMI cable, or a USB cable, or a USB-C cable, or any cable... You've always had to plug things into a laptop. I'm surprised so many 'Pros' don't seem to understand that you've always needed different cables for different things, it's absolutely no different to now. Except we don't need separate ports for everything. Which is a win!

 

[airshu]

I don't see the difference between plugging in an HDMI cable, or a USB cable, or a USB-C cable, or any cable... You've always had to plug things into a laptop. I'm surprised so many 'Pros' don't seem to understand that you've always needed different cables for different things, it's absolutely no different to now. Except we don't need separate ports for everything. Which is a win!

i dont think anyone has had that much problem needing different cables for different things, because until now all those cables and things were provided for, for the most part anyway. a bunch of different cables isnt that bad if you have a bunch of different ports
but take away those ports, and now your existing setup need to be converted to usb-c. either getting a bunch of dongles, or replacing all the cables (and hanging on to the old ones for years until the old standards actually start to disappear)
not that this is easier or better, just the way things are for now. usb-c will make things easier long term, but we'll probably get through this entire macbook design cycle and still be surrounded by stuff that uses the old ports

its pretty unprofessional for a basic tool to be incompatible with its established environment. a good laptop shouldnt be disruptive or dictate its environment, because the best thing a computer can do is fade into the background

other tools only get to command their surroundings when they provide something unique, like necessary research equipment or new tech like VR, or when there is an established need, like widespread usage issues or a safety concern

 

[justabirdy]

[doublepost=1478621299][/doublepost]theres also this video of whoever this is not being able to plug his equipment into the new machines without things breaking. this is just weird

USB Interference with WiFi is nothing new. Not to mention, Using cheap adapters (which are almost guaranteed to not be shielded) is asking for trouble.