Sony HDR-HC7 HDV Camcorder

[Multimedia]

Yes I Know Tapeless Is The Future, Just Not My Future . . . Yet

Preface is I agree with you fully on all points. I'm just playing devil's advocate more than anything else. But text seems to make it seem otherwise.

First off, this is why I'm hesitant to recommend tapeless cameras w/o mentioning the fact that you need a back-up/archival solution and a more thought out workflow to help avoid accidentally loosing footage. For consumers I don't think now is the time to buy a camera that doesn't shoot onto tape. For people who make a living in this industry it's whatever workflow best fits their needs. A tapeless workflow is more complicated for a documentary shooter than it is for a VFX company that always shoots on a green screen, for example.

Secondly, I still fail to see how this is Sony's "...Public Relations nightmare..." when Sony isn't the only company making tapeless cameras.

Sony centric brain. My bad. JVC is trying to include an archive solution with their new 1/5th inch x 3-chip HDD model coming up. But it still relies on hard drives which are mechanical and prone to easy, early and surprise failure.

I don't disagree that their are short comings w/tapeless cameras and the AVCHD codec right now, I just disagree w/the sensationalistic tone ("PR nightmare") and finality ("dead end format") that you are using.

I know. It's a curse. I enjoy writing hyperbolic drivel. It sparks replies.

Tapeless is where things are going. Be it Sony's XDCAM, Pansonic's P2 cards, Red One's HDDs/flash drive, or anyone of Firestore's offerings. The tapeless or "IT" workflow is still bleeding edge and will take a number of years for a proven workflow to filter into common usage, but it will happen. Personally, I can't wait. I worked on a show using XDCAM HD and I didn't miss tape one bit. I'm excited that there are people like Jim Jannard (RED) and David Fincher ("Zodiac") are trailblazing the IT workflow, and it was only a few years ago that Lucas and Rodriguez were getting poo-pooed for saying they'd never shoot on film again. Just because something isn't right for you doesn't mean it's not right for someone else.

Tru Dat.

And HDV's compression is significantly higher than MiniDVs compression (making it such a PITA in post that there is almost universal agreement to transcode footage shot in HDV into a different codec for editing). Speaking of MiniDV, how many computers had firewire when the VX1000 first went on sale?

October 1995. I started shooting with one the week it shipped. I also wrote the first published review of it for DV Magazine that appeared in their February 1996 issue.

How many years after that did computers get fast enough to no long need 3rd party hardware assist cards at all?

October 1995 to January 1999 - about 3.25 years before Apple unvelied the first FireWire equipped B&W PowerMac G3 in the January 5, 1999 San Francisco MacWorld Expo Stevenote.

It's all just coming full circle now w/HD. Now that SD is relatively easy to handle we have a new format coming into common usage. The requirements for working with HD today parallel the requirements for working w/SD 7 or 8 years ago.

So our long term archive medium will be Blu-ray copied from the originals or original Blu-ray in camera recordings? This is where my future vision gets fuzzy and my pocket book screams EXPENSIVE! And I wonder what a stable medium Blu-ray is.

 

[LethalWolfe]

Preface is I agree with you fully on all points. I'm just playing devil's advocate more than anything else. But text seems to make it seem otherwise.

Great, we have two people who like to play devil's advocate "devil advocating" each other. We should be able to get this thread up to 12 pages just by our selves then.

I know. It's a curse. I enjoy writing hyperbolic drivel. It sparks replies.

I'll try to keep that in mind.

So our long term archive medium will be Blu-ray copied from the originals or original Blu-ray in camera recordings? This is where my future vision gets fuzzy and my pocket book screams EXPENSIVE! And I wonder what a stable medium Blu-ray is.

Meh, everything's expensive when it's new. I'm sure you remember when CD blanks were as much as Blu-ray blanks are now. I mentioned before working w/XDCAM and I think that workflow provides the best of both worlds. You shoot onto a piece of physical media that acts as your master copy (like tape) while getting faster than real-time ingesting of your footage, non-linear access to your footage, no tape to wear/get crinckled, and you do away w/bulky, expensive to build/maintain tape assemblies.

As for long term archiving I think that's going to be a bit of a revoloving door. From the little I've read about it most people recommend migrating digital arhcives to a new format every 10-15 years. This way you don't stuck with digital files on medium that's no longer supported (imagine if you had a bunch of files on a Jazz drive or something).


Lethal

 

[viper6]

Cockpit Error Most Definitely. Did you read any documentation in the iMovie Help Files?

I spent some time reading the Japlish. In particular page 58. As I stated earlier my 20" and 24" i-macs both worked on the first try with the camera and i-movie so the conversion setting must be correct, unless there is a special setting for the G5.

Given they do what you recommend first Michael, I think some may also not understand:

1. Must have iMovie 6 OPEN
2. Plus the camera must be ON
3. Plus camera must be in VCR mode.
4. Then Plug In The FireWire

I tried numerous combinations of steps 1-4 including steps 1-4 in the order listed but no joy.

5. In iMovie preferences AND the HC7 make sure the settings are coordinated with the settings Michael lists above. Nothing will work if they are not.

While the camera has settings that speak to the HD and DV conversion being on or off ( again it works with my I-macs, so the camera is set correct) I can't find anything in I-movie preferences that does. The General tab talks about beeps, window size and updates, audio locking, snapping, sound effects and extracting audio. The import tab is about clip parameters, filtering audio and letter boxing. The playback tab is about quality and head location. Am I in the wrong preferences???

6. Make sure your iMovie MODE is switched to the camera position. That's the little slider that has a camera icon on the left and a pair of scissors icon on the right. Without that toggle switched to the left next to the camera icon communication is impossible (as the Japanese like to say).
7. In that mode you will see a blue screen with the words "Camera Attached" in white in the middle of it. Your time code will appear in the upper right corner. (If not you will see the words "No Camera Attached" with a button for "Connection Help" that will launch Apple's own help file including links to other pages that can help as well.
7. Press play in iMovie and you will see the stream playing from the camera.
8. Press the "Import" button and it will begin to copy the stream to your Movie Folder.

Myself and my 14 yr old son have been making and selling movies to our local sports teams for a while now. We have been able to use I-movie with our trusty TVR310 quite successfully and navigate the complexities of the software. And yes we own and have read the Pouge book.

I guess you are saying by all the above that you know a G5 dual will work with the HC7 because you have seen it. So I will need to find out why mine does not. That is what I needed to know

Thank you

 

[Multimedia]

Started A New Project With The Right Setting? HDV 1080i

While the camera has settings that speak to the HD and DV conversion being on or off ( again it works with my I-macs, so the camera is set correct) I can't find anything in I-movie preferences that does. The General tab talks about beeps, window size and updates, audio locking, snapping, sound effects and extracting audio. The import tab is about clip parameters, filtering audio and letter boxing. The playback tab is about quality and head location. Am I in the wrong preferences???

You choose the type of project "HDV 1080i" or "DV Widescreen" when you open a new project. It's an easily overlooked little triangle you need to click on to REVEAL the "Video Format" popup menu when you do command+N for New Project that gives you the following options:

DV - traditional 4x3 SD
DV Widescreen - this is the one you would use when dumbing down from a HDV master to SD
HDV 1080i - this is the one to use for native HC7 HDV footage

HDV 720p - Never use
MPEG-4 Only use when that's what you're starting with.
iSight - never use on G5

You can't change the project type once it's started. And there doesn't appear to be any feedback as to how a project's format is set leading me to think one should include "HDV1080i" in the project name. So you need to start new - Command + N to make sure you've got it set right.

I guess you are saying by all the above that you know a G5 dual will work with the HC7 because you have seen it. So I will need to find out why mine does not. That is what I needed to know.

I can't say I've seen it work with a DC G5 - hell I've never even seen a HC7 in person yet much less with a DC G5. But I have two of them - both the 2GHz DC and the Quad G5 DC - and will make sure as soon as I get my HC7 to test it and report back to you my experience.

ProVantage has me waiting another two weeks to get mine for $1150. This saving money deal is a real pain in the touche.

Plus no one is reporting where they bought theirs for how much money so I can't tell if there's another source for $1150.

 

[viper6]

You choose the type of project HDV or DV when you open a new project. It's an easily overlooked little triangle you need to click on to REVEAL the "Video Format" popup menu when you do command+N for New Project that gives you the following options:

DV - traditional 4x3 SD
DV Widescreen - this is the one you would use when dumbing down from a HDV master to SD
HDV 1080i - this is the one to use for native HC7 HDV footage
HDV 720p - Never use
MPEG-4 Only use when that's what you're starting with.
iSight - never use on G5

I can't say I've seen it work with a DC G5 - hell I've never even seen a HC7 in person yet much less with a DC G5. But I have two of them - both the 2GHz DC and the Quad G5 DC - and will make sure as soon as I get my HC7 to test it and report back to you my experience.

ProVantage has me waiting another two weeks to get mine for $1150. This saving money deal is a real pain in the touche.

Plus no one is reporting where they bought theirs for how much money so I can't tell if there's another source for $1150.

I got mine at Ckt city for 1299. Pricey, but been working a lot of OT so felt like I deserved some instant gratification. I see the price is now back up to 1399 a day later.

It is an amazing camera. We do mostly indoor sports and the noise is non-existant. I did 3 hockey games in two days and the results are excellant. The video will sell well.

I hate using my tripod but this is light enough and the IS (and me) are good enough to hand hold even at 10x!!!

Now if i can just get it to play with my G5 all will be good. Since it already works on my kids I-mac I should have him do all the editing and I will just be the cook and driver.

 

[Chiggs]

Question about still image quality

First of all let me say that this is a great thread. I almost bought a HiDef Sony camcorder just before Christmas but held off because the model I had my eye on didn't work with iMovie. I'm going to order the HDR-HC7 over the next week or so to replace my aging Canon ZR-10.

Can anyone with the HC7 speak to the image quality when taking stills? This may be a silly question but is there a flash/zoom that can be used when taking stills?

I currently use a small Canon digital Elf (5 Megapixels) and a Nikon D70 for taking stills. I'm assuming that this camera will produce stills closer in quality to the Canon?

 

[LethalWolfe]

First of all let me say that this is a great thread. I almost bought a HiDef Sony camcorder just before Christmas but held off because the model I had my eye on didn't work with iMovie. I'm going to order the HDR-HC7 over the next week or so to replace my aging Canon ZR-10.

Can anyone with the HC7 speak to the image quality when taking stills? This may be a silly question but is there a flash/zoom that can be used when taking stills?

I currently use a small Canon digital Elf (5 Megapixels) and a Nikon D70 for taking stills. I'm assuming that this camera will produce stills closer in quality to the Canon?

Multimedia posted stills from the HC7 back on page 7 of this thread. The stills from the camera look like stills taken by a video camera. Your Canon will take significantly better looking still images than the HC7 will.


Lethal

 

[KDR]

Still quality

I have spent about a week with the HC7, so take this for what it's worth. I think the quality is great for the convenience of being able to shoot video and stills simultaneously. By nature, any stills that I personally take when filming video are not things I plan on framing and putting on the wall. I will store them on the computer for occasional viewing and for this purpose they will do fine. When I want to shoot something that I know I am going to print I will always pull out my D80.

 

[JeffDM]

So looks like their "24P" is also "FAKE".

My understanding is that it's real 24p but with 3:2 pull-down added for backward compatibility for editors that don't understand 24p. I think that would mean that teversing the pull-down would be easy once the editor was aware of it.

I'd jump on the Canon HV20, but it's one of the uglier cams on the market.

But I thought it produces among the best pictures of the current batch. When you show off the pictures and video you shot with it to people, they won't see your camera. After the cameras long gone, you'll hopefully still have the photos.

Anyway, the HC7 looks interesting but I really can't justify it. I have an HC1 and it will have to do for now. I have adapters for the bottom loading and the mic mount, so that's not a problem.

 

[Multimedia]

How May We Learn More About Canon's 24P With 3:2 Pull-Down?

So looks like their "24P" is also "FAKE".

My understanding is that it's real 24p but with 3:2 pull-down added for backward compatibility for editors that don't understand 24p. I think that would mean that teversing the pull-down would be easy once the editor was aware of it.

Would you please explain this further and/or give us some links where we can learn how to deal with this kind of 24P? I'm sure I don't understand it.

 

[LethalWolfe]

Would you please explain this further and or give us some links where we can learn how to deal with this kind of 24P? I'm sure I don't understand it.

Cameras like the DVX100 and HV20 can capture the image off the CCDs progressively at 24fps. But 24fps can be very next to useless for TVs and NLEs because they are almost all made to work with a 60 field per second singal (at least in NTSC land). So in the camera the 24p signal gets converted into a 60i signal typically w/3:2 pull-down before it gets written onto the tape (basically the same way 24fps film gets telecined into NTSC video or how a dvd player will add pull-down so a 24fps DVD displayes proplerly on an NTSC TV).

There are also "tricks" you can use so that an NLE can extract a true 24p signal from a 60i signal. For example, in the case the DVX100's 24pA ("A" for "advanced") mode the camera uses a 2:3:3:2 pull-down cadence to make the 60i signal recorded to tape. Played back the image will look jerky on a TV, but in FCP you can "throw away" the extra fields and be left w/true 24p footage.

For anyone who wants to really "geek out" here is a link going into more detail about all this.


Lethal

 

[faustfire]

Sony's XDCAM HD format looks promising. The format is based off MPEG2 but records at 35Mbits instead of HDV's 25Mbits, and is more efficient than DVCPRO HD ever can be. XDCAM is recorded onto Blu-Ray which makes random access easy and efficient to transfer to computer.

We have a Sony XDCAM HD at work and it doesnt really look any better than standard HDV, maybe when they come out with their 50Mbits models it will get better. How can you say that XDCAM HD is more efficient than DVCPRO HD, the image quality is not even close! (unless you are shooting a scene with nothing moving in the frame at all.)

 

[JeffDM]

Would you please explain this further and/or give us some links where we can learn how to deal with this kind of 24P? I'm sure I don't understand it.

I think these threads cover it:
http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=88259
http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=87445

I don't have time to read them until tonight to check.

 

[FF_productions]

So does anyone have some good sample footage of this camcorder? This thread has kinda been raising my interest.

 

[JeffDM]

So does anyone have some good sample footage of this camcorder? This thread has kinda been raising my interest.

There is a lot of footage that's been posted to the dvinfo.net forums from time to time. Canon HV10/HV20 has its own subforum, and the HC1/3/5/7/A1 has its own subforum.

 

[Multimedia]

JeffDM Likes To Provide Links For Your Convenience

There is a lot of footage that's been posted to The Digital Video Information Network forums from time to time. Canon HV10/HV20 has its own subforum, and the HC1/3/5/7/A1 has its own subforum.

Thanks for providing the links Jeff.

FYI: To contribute to the DVI forums, you must register and appear there with your REAL NAME.

 

[LethalWolfe]

We have a Sony XDCAM HD at work and it doesnt really look any better than standard HDV, maybe when they come out with their 50Mbits models it will get better. How can you say that XDCAM HD is more efficient than DVCPRO HD, the image quality is not even close! (unless you are shooting a scene with nothing moving in the frame at all.)

If you don't think a camera w/a better lens, bigger CCDs, and a higher bitrate produces a better image than a camera w/a lesser lens, smaller CCDs, and a lower bitrate me thinks your camera is broken or you eyes need to be checked.

XDCAM HD (in it's 35mbps HQ version) has been given the "thumbs up" from the quality nazis at Discovery and it's also being used by "The News Hour with Jim Leher" which airs on another quality nazis network, PBS.


XDCAM HD is more efficient in that you can get a comparable image at a lower data rate. But more efficient doesn't always mean better all around. And like w/everything else their are trades-offs between image quality and data rate and usability that have to be balanced. For example, The fact that you can cram an HD image into the same size file as a SD DV image is pretty amazing. Of course the big trade-off comes in post where HDV is much more difficult codec to work with.


Lethal

 

[Multimedia]

Can We Use The XDCAM HD 35mbps HQ Codec In FCP From HDMI-Out 2 Intensity-In Playback?

If you don't think a camera w/a better lens, bigger CCDs, and a higher bitrate produces a better image than a camera w/a lesser lens, smaller CCDs, and a lower bitrate me thinks your camera is broken or you eyes need to be checked.

XDCAM HD (in it's 35mbps HQ version) has been given the "thumbs up" from the quality nazis at Discovery and it's also being used by "The News Hour with Jim Leher" which airs on another quality nazis network, PBS.


XDCAM HD is more efficient in that you can get a comparable image at a lower data rate. But more efficient doesn't always mean better all around. And like w/everything else their are trades-offs between image quality and data rate and usability that have to be balanced. For example, The fact that you can cram an HD image into the same size file as a SD DV image is pretty amazing. Of course the big trade-off comes in post where HDV is much more difficult codec to work with.

I'm curious knowing we can play our HDV recordings out the HDMI port to the HDMI in of an Intensity Card in a Mac Pro or DC PM G5, then can we apply the XDCAM HD HQ codec to that stream for better editing capabilities?

And in the end, would we be able to dumb that edit back down to an HDV export out the FW port to master on (H)DV Tape? Not that that would be a good idea, just would it be possible as one of the export types from a XDCAM HD HQ finished edit?

Does anyone here have an Intensity card rig yet?

After reading the Intensity Manual published in December, it looks like we're gonna have to use the DVCPRO HD Codec @ 49GB/hr. Will that still be better Lethal?

 

[Multimedia]

ProVantage Finally Just Got A Few HC7s In

Looks like I will finally get my ProVantage $1150 HC7 next week. Just off the phone with them. They say they'll be shipping mine to me either tomorrow or Thursday at the latest. So I should have it by the end of next week March 22 or 23. Whoot! I'll let you know when I get my tracking number.

Gramatical Curiosity: I just checked my Tiger's Dictionary and the word "Whoot" is not listed. And yet I've read it here many times. Have we recently invented this word or am I mistaken?

 

[LethalWolfe]

I'm curious knowing we can play our HDV recordings out the HDMI port to the HDMI in of an Intensity Card in a Mac Pro or DC PM G5, then can we apply the XDCAM HD HQ codec to that stream for better editing capabilities?

And in the end, would we be able to dumb that edit back down to an HDV export out the FW port to master on (H)DV Tape? Not that that would be a good idea, just would it be possible as one of the export types from a XDCAM HD HQ finished edit?

Does anyone here have an Intensity card rig yet?

After reading the Intensity Manual published in December, it looks like we're gonna have to use the DVCPRO HD Codec @ 49GB/hr. Will that still be better Lethal?

I've seen many people recommend transcoding HDV to DVCPro HD, but I haven't read of anyone suggesting using XDCAM HD instead (that doesn't mean no one has though). I don't know enough about XDCAM HD as a post codec to give a truly informed answer. I would assume (dangerous word, I know) that given its GOP structure it would be more CPU intensive than DVCPro HD and given its 4:2:0 color sampling it might be harder to color correct (and the like) compared to DVCPro HD's 4:2:2 color sampling.

FWIW, I've done some quick reading and see that there is a bit of a debate between editing XDCAM HD natively in FCP or transcending it to a different codec.


Lethal

 

[hc7]

HDMI Out setting to 1080i manually?

Having problem getting 1080i from HDMI output of HC7 to a HD LCD monitor with DVI connction. The component output works fine at shooting out 1080i. When I use the HDMI output, I only get 720x480p. I've called SONY tech support but they could not help. I can go to "STATUS" in the menu and it lists all the output modes. When I'm not using HDMI, I get "----" and as soon as I plug it in, it must try to sync with the LCD monitor and it sets it self to 480p. Question is, why is it not sending a 1080i signal? I've tried on 3 different HD LCD monitors. Component 1080i yes, but HDMI 1080i not yet.

 

[LethalWolfe]

Having problem getting 1080i from HDMI output of HC7 to a HD LCD monitor with DVI connction. The component output works fine at shooting out 1080i. When I use the HDMI output, I only get 720x480p. I've called SONY tech support but they could not help. I can go to "STATUS" in the menu and it lists all the output modes. When I'm not using HDMI, I get "----" and as soon as I plug it in, it must try to sync with the LCD monitor and it sets it self to 480p. Question is, why is it not sending a 1080i signal? I've tried on 3 different HD LCD monitors. Component 1080i yes, but HDMI 1080i not yet.

Do you have any other HDMI devices (PS3, HD-DVD player, etc.,) that you can test w/the LCD to see if they work properly?

-Lethal

 

[Multimedia]

HDMI to DVI In Might Not Work

You say DVI In. That might be the problem. I would expect it to NOT work on the DVI IN of a monitor that is also not a HDTV. There's audio in that signal that the DVI IN of a monitor wouldn't understand.

Hey look everybody! It's hc7's first post after just joing today with our beloved camcorder's model number as his handle! How cute.

 

[t1937r0]

Have you ever been chased by the entire JV football team simply because you chose to wear your cloak to school that day?

I know this is OT, but that is a great quote. Fear of Girls indeed.

 

[LethalWolfe]

You say DVI In. That might be the problem. I would expect it to NOT work on the DVI IN of a monitor that is also not a HDTV. There's audio in that signal that the DVI IN of a monitor wouldn't understand.

There are HDMI-to-DVI cables for HDTVs that don't have HDMI (like HC7s which he said is an HD LCD).

Hey look everybody! It's hc7's first post after just joing today with our beloved camcorder's model number as his handle! How cute.

It would be cuter if we could get his camera working properly.

I know this is OT, but that is a great quote.

Thanks.


Lethal