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Split - Politics of space exploration

What was your valid and true point?

That immigrants don't get healthcare? That's false.

That they don't get the good, expensive healthcare? That's false too.

So they might not get a regular checkups and regular care. They still get what they need to survive once it's critical and most expensive.

This has nothing to do with political parties and everything to do with logic.
 
Originally posted by idkew
that is why i edited it [edit- wait, i read your first post wrong. i did not see that as an attack. sorry if you did. i was just trying to make an amusing pun.]

not to mention, your was as much as a personal attack. putting false words in one's mouth is the same as calling someone a democrat in aderrgotory way.
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My argument was made using sarcasm. I put no words in your mouth and I did not insult you.

It's not an amusing pun, it's a cheap shot at me personally. If you get personally offended by sarcastic debate, I advise you to just leave now.
 
Originally posted by pseudobrit
This has nothing to do with political parties and everything to do with logic.
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i am not sure what is logical about universal healthcare when it comes to abuse.

while i am no tax "doctor" I highly doubt that state sales tax would go to a federal system of healthcare.

isn't the big tax income for the feds from income tax? if you are illegally in the country, and being paid under the counter, how does the government get this money?

one thing i think is absolutely necessary, if there were to be a national HC system, is that users pay into it. Wether it be 200 grand or 2 grand, it doesn't matter, but for HC, one must put something on the pot.
 
Universal Healthcare for all U.S. Citizens.

The fact that the U.S. doesn't have this is a disgrace.

Period.
 
NASA currently consumes less than 1% of the federal budget.

Entitlement spending (Social security, Medicare, Medicaid) consumes 2/3 of the federal budget.

I'm not sure that even a majority of citizens would agree that the lack of US universal health care is a disgrace. Those in health care plans or who can afford care are probably scared of what it would cost (assuredly more than proponents will estimate or admit), and that services will decline for all. As far as I know, no one in need of emergency help is turned away, and we all pay for that one way or another. Not to say "you're not covered, too bad for you, now go die", but not everyone's convinced that "universal health care" is the panacea some think it is.

Obviously something is wrong with the health care picture. It's wrong when hospitals charge several dollars per aspirin pill, and doctors quit their practices because they cannot afford malpractice insurance.

I have heard that we need tort reform to reduce frivolous lawsuits and outrageous jury awards -- but, if you are the one injured by malpractice, you most definitely feel you deserve fair compensation for loss of productivity, "pain and suffering".

I have heard that the insurance industry is taking it out on doctors because the insurers lost a bundle in investments. Maybe it's true.

I have heard the real problem is people in HMOs going to emergency rooms because they can't be bothered to make and keep an appointment with a doctor. If true, shame on them and fix this problem.

I have heard that Los Angeles offers not only emergency care, but a "suite of health services" to illegal immigrants, and it is exacerbating their budget problems. But, politically, nothing can be done.

Anyway, something is definitely wrong with the system. Someone is getting rich somewhere, and it probably ain't us.

That said, I know I want my Dish Network and GPS and OnStar and weather satellites. I want the improved computing power, battery technology, astronomical research, more jobs for engineers, more interest in the sciences -- and hell, the plain excitement of it.

I think some of you guys would rather "sell sugar water than change the world".
 
The United Stats of America is the wealthiest nation on the planet. We are the ONLY western industrialized nation that does not provide healthcare for all of it's citizens, regardless of employment status or income level. A healthy populace is is an asset to a nation.

Yes, it IS a disgrace, and the ones who can't see it are the ones who are covered and don't care about anyone else as long as everything is "okay" for them.
 
I'm sorry you think that everyone who isn't in favor of "universal health care" doesn't care about anyone else. I can assure you that's not true. As I said, I do believe that there are many problems with our health care system. Not everyone is in agreement about the solution, however.
 
Originally posted by McToast
The United Stats of America is the wealthiest nation on the planet. We are the ONLY western industrialized nation that does not provide healthcare for all of it's citizens, regardless of employment status or income level. A healthy populace is is an asset to a nation.

Yes, it IS a disgrace, and the ones who can't see it are the ones who are covered and don't care about anyone else as long as everything is "okay" for them.
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if every country is jumping off a bridge, should we do it too?

or, in other words, just because other countries do things one way, it does not mean that we have to do it that way also, or that thier way is right?

i also do not understand how a national HC system fits in a capitalist society. it seems much more like a socialist project. we already have a failing, socailist system on retirement planning. what makes universal healthcare any different than social security? imagine if our healthcare system went bankrupt and we could not afford primary care anymore?

plus, your comments sound like a) you think all rich people don't care that poor people live or die (patently false), and b) that you think the people who work for a living and have found personal success, should be forced to pay for everyone else. do you also believe in complete redistribution of wealth?
 
Originally posted by mactastic
Illegal immigrants do pay taxes, many times they provide a fake SSN, not to mention they pay sales tax on everything they buy. I understand what you are trying to say, and to some extent I agree with you, however the AM radio rhetoric of illegals paying no taxes is a lie. You would do well to rethink that statement.
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One question.

Are illegal aliens supposed to even be in the country to begin with?
 
Originally posted by 2jaded2care
I'm sorry you think that everyone who isn't in favor of "universal health care" doesn't care about anyone else. I can assure you that's not true. As I said, I do believe that there are many problems with our health care system. Not everyone is in agreement about the solution, however.
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Of course not, but we should be able to at least agree on the problem -- then we can start talking about the solution. I think the problem is the millions of working Americans (42.5 million and growing steadily) with little or no access to health care. How do you define the problem?
 
Sorry IJ, I'm not an expert on the state (lower case "s") of the US healthcare system. I mentioned some of the problems of which I'm anecdotally aware. Guess I need to do some research.

I don't seem to recall this kind of clamor, however, about health care when I was growing up, so my inference (mistaken or not) is that the health care system did adequately work at some point in history. I don't know what changed; maybe it's just the "Me" generation getting creaky and whiny. Maybe the HMOs have thrown the system out of whack (they haven't always been around). Maybe it's outrageous profiteering on the part of someone (my suspicion, since usually where there's smoke...).

I can't really comment on your definition of the problem yet. I realize that a large percentage of working people are not happy with the status quo (really? Naw...). I don't know the numbers, or how many of those people choose not to carry health insurance (because they are young and healthy, etc.). I will try to find out, to have a more informed opinion. (I suspect, however, that the "facts" will depend largely on the "source" of the information.)

I do know that no one in this country, legal citizen or not, is denied emergency care, often taxpayer-supported. Would it be cheaper to extend this to preventive care? Probably. Is this another can of worms? Probably.

I did not know that space exploration was such a controversial topic. I guess lots of people consider it extraneous to their everyday lives. (I can tell you it isn't to many engineers, astronomers, science instructors or their families.)

I don't see why space exploration is the only subject that's got to be on the chopping block to fund health care. I don't consider it "up there" on the pork scale. Apparently many do.

I do know that getting rid of NASA will not solve the problem of health care in this country.
 
Originally posted by 2jaded2care
Sorry IJ, I'm not an expert on the state (lower case "s") of the US healthcare system. I mentioned some of the problems of which I'm anecdotally aware. Guess I need to do some research.
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You don't need to be an expert in anything to know that tens of millions of working people in the US get no access to health care, and that number grows every year. And I don't mean emergency care -- I mean the kind of care that prevents emergencies. In fact, the loading up of the emergency care system with people who could have been better and less expensively treated before their conditions became acute is one of the major reasons the system is becoming unaffordable for an increasing number of people. We pay for that inefficiency, you know.

People who are lucky enough to have good health plans provided by their employers, or are young enough not to feel a need for it, are shielded from this problem. For now. But it will get to them, as they grow older and employers less and less willing to deal with the cost of providing health care. So it isn't a matter of being unhappy with the "status quo," it's about a system which is falling apart before our eyes, with nobody in government having the courage to admit it, let alone propose a solution.

This can of worms is already wide open.
 
I'm trying to claim ignorance, but you won't have any of it. Gee, I would have thought my previous posts would have authenticated any admission of ignorance...

If the general population is as riled up as you folks seem to be about health care, I don't understand how politicians can ignore the problem(s) and stay in office.

If Bush ever thought proposing a new space initiative was going to be non-controversial, boy, was he ever wrong.
 
Originally posted by 2jaded2care
I'm trying to claim ignorance, but you won't have any of it. Gee, I would have thought my previous posts would have authenticated any admission of ignorance...

If the general population is as riled up as you folks seem to be about health care, I don't understand how politicians can ignore the problem(s) and stay in office.

If Bush ever thought proposing a new space initiative was going to be non-controversial, boy, was he ever wrong.
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I suppose, but I'm not taking up this cudgel because of Bush's space program proposal. I'm already on the record here as being in favor of space exploration. I just think the timing is proposal is poor in terms of our ability to pay for it, and political. But I've said that already...

The general population is riled up about health care. This is the centerpiece of many of the recent job actions in the US (including and especially the long and bitter supermarket workers strike here in So. California). And clearly, this is just the beginning.

Health care has been high up on the list of concerns of voters for at least ten years now. The polls consistently show this. But as I've said before, we're not going to see real reform until the corporations demand it of their clients in Congress. I think that's coming.
 
corporations arent worried about it, all they have to do is move those factories to 3rd world countries or China and not worry about it. this is what is happening so the ones running Congress, the Senate and the President are making it happen. so in the end we loose jobs and still have no National Healthcare. I am for space exploration but we have to correct a few things before squandering billions in space. by the way how much did 2 space shuttles cost us?
 
Originally posted by Dont Hurt Me
by the way how much did 2 space shuttles cost us?
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i am not sure about the exact nomber, but i know it was WAY more than projected.

but- i just figured it all out. the gov can legalize marijuana. this way, we can release and pardon thousands of healthy workers from a costyl jail. we can stop spending billions a year on fighiting a drug which causes less problems than alcohol. then, we can put some nice and hefty taxes on marijuana, just as we do with alcohol and tobacco. opt in taxes are the best taxes.

all this new found money can go into a general fund which helps pay for the new federal insurance plan. this plan's cost will be based on a flat percentage of income, making it affordable to everyone. private healthcare will still be allowed, but it will be forced to become competitive with the new taxed money funded federal system or become obsolete.

ok, this would never work... but my point is that space travel is not the only expense we have in america. plus, funding HC with an unhealthy act is a unethical...
 
Ah yes the sin tax. You know why those are so much easier to pass than general taxes, right? 'Cuz whatever portion of the population there is that doesn't engage in is likely to be overwhelmingly in favor it since they can benefit from a tax they don't have to pay! Not that I have a problem legalizing and taxing weed, it sure makes a hell of a lot of sense from a fiscal (and moral) perspective.

Lol, lets see how much farther we can get this post off-topic than it is now.
 
Originally posted by idkew
if every country is jumping off a bridge, should we do it too?

or, in other words, just because other countries do things one way, it does not mean that we have to do it that way also, or that thier way is right?

i also do not understand how a national HC system fits in a capitalist society. it seems much more like a socialist project. we already have a failing, socailist system on retirement planning. what makes universal healthcare any different than social security? imagine if our healthcare system went bankrupt and we could not afford primary care anymore?

plus, your comments sound like a) you think all rich people don't care that poor people live or die (patently false), and b) that you think the people who work for a living and have found personal success, should be forced to pay for everyone else. do you also believe in complete redistribution of wealth?
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Other countries are doing things the right way.

P.S. And on a side note, with similar themes, I say, "No way in hell!" to school vouchers.
 
Originally posted by IJ Reilly
You don't need to be an expert in anything to know that tens of millions of working people in the US get no access to health care, and that number grows every year. And I don't mean emergency care -- I mean the kind of care that prevents emergencies. In fact, the loading up of the emergency care system with people who could have been better and less expensively treated before their conditions became acute is one of the major reasons the system is becoming unaffordable for an increasing number of people. We pay for that inefficiency, you know.

People who are lucky enough to have good health plans provided by their employers, or are young enough not to feel a need for it, are shielded from this problem. For now. But it will get to them, as they grow older and employers less and less willing to deal with the cost of providing health care. So it isn't a matter of being unhappy with the "status quo," it's about a system which is falling apart before our eyes, with nobody in government having the courage to admit it, let alone propose a solution.

This can of worms is already wide open.
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Why don't you start a business that provides health care to these people that don't have health plans? Sounds like an opportunity that would make you rich.
 
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