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I have 2 questions for you:

1) How much, exactly, should an artist get paid per stream of a song?

2) Please tell me exactly what you would be willing to pay per stream, no subscription, just a la carte.


From the services standpoint: Assuming the above article is correct, copyright holders get .01 per stream. If Apple charges 10.99/mo a user can stream 1099 songs a month for a break even on your subscription. Apple of course is losing money on that because they handle all the backend and the service. If you listen to Apple Music all your waking hours, 16 hours times 60 is 960 potential listening minutes in a day and lets say the average song is 3.5 minutes... 960/3.5 is 274 songs a day. Your monthly "allotment" based on the sub cost would be used up in approximately 4 days. Or if you just take 1099 songs a month divided by 30 days your "allotment" is 36.6 songs a day.

From the artists standpoint: They could sell a song for 1.29 (current cost of Today's Hits on iTunes store). By the time profits from that amount hit the artist... I'm gonna spitball it at .30, I have no idea but it seems reasonable by the time everyone gets their cut. Remember, Apple, Spotify, etc are not responsible for the ills of the music industry.

OR

They can hope that everyone just "rents" music forever. I think the artist wins in the streaming scenario, even at Spotify compensation.

So back to my first question. Based on the subscription costs and how that pays out, how much should an artist get for a single stream? More importantly, are you willing to pay a higher subscription cost to accommodate that? Even if you are willing to pay it, will the average user pay it?

It's easy to say "pay XXX person more" but that money comes from somewhere.

I don't claim to have all the answers here, but a long time ago, I did play in a local band and we put out a couple albums locally/regionally. So I've been on that side of the equation before.

First off? I really think the artists all tend to lose in the streaming music era. That's the real reason you hear so much complaining about lack of compensation. The business model itself doesn't really work to pay them anywhere near the actual value of the work they're producing. Part of the problem is that it changed the entire music listening/purchasing experience. Before the streaming era, there was more of a collective sense that you were "buying the music you liked". Yes, we know the recording industry insisted that was totally incorrect and you were simply buying the right to listen to the songs/albums as often as you wanted, on the physical media they provided them on, until it wore out or got damaged or what-not. And you weren't allowed to play it in a commercial setting without paying additional royalties. But for the general public, they were "buying the albums", as far as they were concerned. They paid the asking price and got to take a physical product home, complete with liner notes and some cool artwork. They could play it on any device they wished that could read the media, and they could even make copies of it for friends (whether legal or not). That whole "ecosystem" for music drove a LOT of people to happily pay $18.99 or so for a new CD, even back 30 years ago or so when that $18.99 went a lot further than it does today.

Streaming caused everyone think of music as a commodity you buy "in bulk". You don't want to pay much for any single album or track because you don't get to own it at all anymore. There's nothing physical to store on your shelf. A given song could disappear at any time if the service decides to stop streaming it, and you have no control over it. It's also limited by requirements like having a good data connection, or taking extra steps to download the songs for temporary offline play in advance if you know you want to listen to them later. (And again, if you do that, it's only for play on that one device, subject to your digital rights approval it grants you when it sees your subscription is current.)

And while one could argue you ALWAYS had radio streaming the music to people at no cost to them? They had zero say-so in choosing to listen to specific songs at specific times. Calling in and begging a DJ to play a song was the best you could do. And obviously, it was all funded by the commercials you had to put up with. On top of that, though? People used to rely on the radio as kind of a "purchasing guide". People bought most of their albums after deciding they liked at least one or two songs from it that were getting played repeatedly on the radio. Streaming pretty much negates the value that once had for musicians, because few streaming users will listen to a specific album's music so many times, it more than covers what they would have paid to own it on cassette or CD in the past.

Secondly, streaming music makes it really easy for people to listen to *anything* out there. This one's a double-edged sword. On one hand, I like the fact it opens people's minds. I think you have more listeners today who will tell you they listen to multiple genres of music (say Country, R&B, classic rock and heavy metal) than you ever did decades ago. But the downside is, it dilutes things so you get all these listeners who listen, scatter-shot, to a wide variety of tracks while streaming music for a few hours. But that means they're not listening to YOUR music for as many plays, as a given musician. When they had to pay the $10-20 to own your physical album, they were listening to it a lot and forming more of a loyalty to that genre/type of music. So end result? Lots of artists making a few pennies here and a few there, instead of having large groups of "followers" of the type of music specific artists created, who kept buying and playing those tracks as the majority of what they listened to.
 
I've tried Spotify and Pandora a few times. Didn't care for them. This was before Apple Music was even a thing.

Will this regulation also mean Microsoft can't sell its Office suite? How about Spectrum not being able to sell internet and a streaming product?

It would be interesting to see if this does pass another company comes up and does better than Spotify.
 
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Just came to here to say that this type of analogy doesn't work well here, because whether you're Apple, Spotfiy or any of these other services? You're more like a sports teams' manager than a player OR a referee.

The musicians, software developers and other content CREATORS actually made everything that's of any value here. Spotify didn't produce any of their own music albums to stream, and neither did Apple. Apple *does* write some of their own software, but especially in recent times, it's VERY limited. Whether you use a Mac or an iOS device, I almost guarantee the bulk of your software you've installed wasn't developed by Apple.

All these companies are doing is providing the creators a distribution option where they can earn some revenue in return for people consuming the content. (They get to make the rules on how they're going to handle that process, just like your major league sports team manager decides on contracts offered to the players.)
Thanks for this.

Always the musicians getting bent over.
 
If you charge $10/month for your music service, it is anticompetitive to take 30% of your competitors $10/month music service.

If you owned a store in a mall selling (price-controlled) Rolexes and the mall opened their own store next door to you selling the same Rolexes, you'd cry foul.

But the mall analogy still isn't as bad as the App Store... The mall does incur lost revenue (not leasing finite space to another tenant) with their own store where Apple does not. And you can at least move malls.
No. No no no. This is completely wrong. If you want to use brick and mortar stores as an analogy, here's a great example of how that works, courtesy of mrcheckout.net

"The typical breakdown of margins are: If a products costs $1 to produce, that product will retail for $4. That product that retails for $4 will wholesale for $2 to distributors and stores that purchase direct. Big box retailers like Target may offer to pay $1.25 to the manufacturer if the product costs $1 to produce. That is the typical profit margin."

Companies like Target still sell their own branded products right alongside these items from other vendors. Items that they take a huge cut of every sale of every time they're sold.

Running a brick and mortar store like Target (or even a massive digital store like the App Store) requires a lot of expense (in Apple's case, not just hosting, but R&D, marketing, teams to approve apps and support developers, etc.). There is nothing stopping Spotify from building their own phone and app store, just like there's nothing stopping Johnny the Candlemaker from building a Target competitor. In both cases, they just don't want to pony up the expense to do it themselves. And they feel entitled to reap free benefits off of the expense that Apple has paid to build this platform.

Apple is in the right on this one, 100%. Here's hoping they win, and win big.
 
Apple created a device that plays music. Apple created a store to buy music on. Then Apple created a store to buy other music apps that people can play music and buy music on. And now people are unhappy that Apple did the first two things, but not the third?
 
No. No no no. This is completely wrong. If you want to use brick and mortar stores as an analogy, here's a great example of how that works, courtesy of mrcheckout.net

"The typical breakdown of margins are: If a products costs $1 to produce, that product will retail for $4. That product that retails for $4 will wholesale for $2 to distributors and stores that purchase direct. Big box retailers like Target may offer to pay $1.25 to the manufacturer if the product costs $1 to produce. That is the typical profit margin."

Companies like Target still sell their own branded products right alongside these items from other vendors. Items that they take a huge cut of every sale of every time they're sold.

Running a brick and mortar store like Target (or even a massive digital store like the App Store) requires a lot of expense (in Apple's case, not just hosting, but R&D, marketing, teams to approve apps and support developers, etc.). There is nothing stopping Spotify from building their own phone and app store, just like there's nothing stopping Johnny the Candlemaker from building a Target competitor. In both cases, they just don't want to pony up the expense to do it themselves. And they feel entitled to reap free benefits off of the expense that Apple has paid to build this platform.

Apple is in the right on this one, 100%. Here's hoping they win, and win big.
This is right on the money. People forget that Apple created the device. And the App Store. And maintain the device. And the App Store. And want to just profit.
 
If you charge $10/month for your music service, it is anticompetitive to take 30% of your competitors $10/month music service.

If you owned a store in a mall selling (price-controlled) Rolexes and the mall opened their own store next door to you selling the same Rolexes, you'd cry foul.

But the mall analogy still isn't as bad as the App Store... The mall does incur lost revenue (not leasing finite space to another tenant) with their own store where Apple does not. And you can at least move malls.
terrible way to frame this.

amazon sells amazon basics usb cables while anker pays fees to amazon.
cvs sells cvs brand supplements while nature made pays fees to cvs.
Sony sells their own video games on playstation while capcom pays fees to Sony.

these scenarios and more have been going on well before apple's App Store existed. but suddenly people cry foul against apple for some reason.
 
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How will the regulation-hungry EU tackle Google's suite of products (Search, Email, Ads, Docs), Amazon with AWS and commerce if this is the path they are going down?
Newsflash: The UK is not in the EU anymore. You know, the little thing called Brexit, that was the UK leaving the EU. This article deals with laws enacted specifically in the UK.
 
Spotify has been largely responsible for the downfall in music standards.

When millions of people can just stream music cheaply or freely there is much less incentive on musicians and producers to WORK REALLY HARD to make great music and sell it.

So we no longer have talent on the level of David Bowie, Freddie Mercury, Stevie Wonder, etc.

That was a golden generation because they WORKED REALLY HARD to make great music and sell it.

Actual sales. Physical media that is well presented and looks great on your shelves. You are a real music fan who collects music who lives to make their home look great.

Real music fans buy music and many still prefer to support independent retail stores.

When was the last time rent seeker Daniel Elk visited a record store and bought physical media for full price?
 
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I wish Apple Music recommendations were as good as Spotify's so I could switch to Apple Music.
 
“Ek has long advocated for legislation that hobbles Apple's ability to both offer a platform (iOS) and compete on that platform with apps like Spotify rival Apple Music.”

Wait, so if Apple didn’t write iOS, but provided some other company’s “platform” as the base operating system for iPhones, then Ek’s argument would vanish?
 
Au contraire. Spotify, like Netflix, could offer sales of their service outside of the the App Store and not pay the 30%. There are many businesses that have apps on the Apple App Store that do not offer financial transactions through the store.

Most people looking for a music app will do it in the App Store and they will want to start a subscription right in the app. NO ONE will search on the web, signup on the web, then look for an App to download. This isn’t just things work. Apple told developers you can let people SIGN IN to your app but they can’t let them subscribe in the app unless you use in-app purchases (give them 30%).

Sure many businesses offer their own app and you can subscribe outside of the store but most apps built for iPhone suffer significant loss of revenue because of that. And generally it is just poor UX.
 
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iTunes Store introduced: 2003
Spotify app introduced: 2008 At that time, STRANGELY entirely fine with the App Store rules. One wonders why? What has changed? The money they made from Apple’s customers? :)
Uh, iTunes Store and App Store are not the same thing.
Spotify released in 2006, but since Apple didn't want developers on the iPhone, it was not until july 2008 Apple opened up their App Store on the iPhone for third parties at which time Spotify released an app.
Apple Music released in 2015, as a direct competitor to Spotify since customers were no longer interested in buying music but rather streaming.
 
If the App Store isn’t your creation, create your own and make your own rules.

So lets say a large group of White males came together, and decided to build a Bus Company, they then used their skills to construct the bus, planned the routes, installed the bus stops, and once up and running, they said only white people could use their bus.

Black people complained this was not fair on them.

You are saying that as the Bus system isn't the creation on these black people, then the black people should "create their own and make their own rules?"

As a society we have agreed this behaviour is not acceptable.

Do you still feel that "if you don't like something then make your own" is a fair system to run the world by?
 
Apple Music is better. Wonder what all changes will have to be made because of the changes to various laws.
 
Most people looking for a music app will do it in the App Store and they will want to start a subscription right in the app. NO ONE will search on the web, signup on the web, then look for an App to download. This isn’t just things work. Apple told developers you can let people SIGN IN to your app but they can’t let them subscribe in the app unless you use in-app purchases (give them 30%).

Sure many businesses offer their own app and you can subscribe outside of the store but most apps built for iPhone suffer significant loss of revenue because of that. And generally it is just poor UX.
So it sounds like there is value in being able to sign-up to a service directly in the app. And with value there tends to be an exchange of money.
 
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They definitely need to figure out how to keep digital platforms competitive given they tend to be winner take all.

It looks like Spotify is actually competing pretty well. They have twice as many subscribers as the next competitor who is, ironically, Apple Music...

🤣

2023-10-03.jpg


Consumers can choose from an ever-expanding catalog of free and paid music streaming services. While various smaller providers have amassed impressive user bases in their respective markets over the years, the global streaming landscape continues to be dominated by a handful of behemoths. Data showed that Spotify remains the most popular music streaming provider worldwide, accounting for over 30 percent of all streaming subscribers and outperforming its closest competitors, Apple Music, Amazon Music, and Tencent Music. According to the company’s latest filings, the number of Spotify premium subscribers reached a record 205 million users by the end of 2022, while revenues from its paid and ad-supported streaming models also peaking.

So Daniel Ek... tell me again about Apple's "dominance" and how they are "having an adverse effect on competition."

:p
 
I do like Spotify playlists better. The g/f subs to them, we sub (family plan) to AM, and also iTunes Match (redundant, I know) but boo hoo Spotify…
 
First off stop complaining about the 30%. It is 15% after the first year. Second: a sound strategy would be to convert the gazillion free users to paid ones and/or increase advertisement revenues by selling ads in all countries aggressively to finance the free tier which might become even more lucrative than the paid ones. Yes, Spotify will make all radio stations angry because they will take away their advertisement revenues, oh the irony.
Third, make your product better and better. From what it seems the interface and algorithm are already better but the sound quality isn't. Fourth, make Spotify available EVERYWHERE. For small businesses, car makers, strike deals left and right, event outside the App Store...

But, I guess, whining seems to be a faster strategy. I really doubt that, if apple takes away their cut, Spotify would instantly turn a profit. And, should Apple Music stop existing, in three months Spotify would increase its prices dramatically. The business model as it stands doesn't seem to be viable. And Spotify INVENTED it. Why can't they turn a profit? You are the BIGGEST player, and Android in Europe has a much bigger market share than Apple. And yet, for some reason, your whole business strategy is in shambles because of a 15% cut on transactions?

Even if Spotify charges directly without App Store fees, they would incur in credid card fees, so we are talking about a difference of 10% between App Store fees and card fees. On top of that they would have to figure out a pricing, conversion rates, manage VAT % and payments and so on and so forth. I doubt the costs of running it "alone" would be much less than 15% of the transactions between card fees and added management costs.

All of that for the platform which, in Europe, has the smallest market share.

I am baffled at how much the press eats up only one version of the story.
 
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NO ONE will search on the web, signup on the web, then look for an App to download. This isn’t just things work. Apple told developers you can let people SIGN IN to your app but they can’t let them subscribe in the app unless you use in-app purchases (give them 30%).
You are very wrong. I subscribed to Spotify from their website. I do that for all subscriptions. I prefer going to the source. Not certain where you get your wild incorrect ideas from.
 
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