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No, Fortnite tried to avert IAP and took alternate payments directly in the app. Spotify just said can’t buy in app and made them to go a website.
I think Spotify’s approach here is the right one. Being able to sell subscriptions in a free app without going through Apple’s App Store service means developers can get all the benefits of Apple’s centralised App Store without paying anything for the privilege (other than a token yearly fee).

I suppose this is why Dutch dating apps still need to pay Apple a 27% commission, although that’s a lot more bureaucratic and expensive to administer than the current approach.

It'll be interesting to see how it all shakes out as there are numerous ways it might go.
 
Spotify has been largely responsible for the downfall in music standards.

When millions of people can just stream music cheaply or freely there is much less incentive on musicians and producers to WORK REALLY HARD to make great music and sell it.

So we no longer have talent on the level of David Bowie, Freddie Mercury, Stevie Wonder, etc.

That was a golden generation because they WORKED REALLY HARD to make great music and sell it.

Actual sales. Physical media that is well presented and looks great on your shelves. You are a real music fan who collects music who lives to make their home look great.

Real music fans buy music and many still prefer to support independent retail stores.

When was the last time rent seeker Daniel Elk visited a record store and bought physical media for full price?
Totally agree with most of this. Whilst I wouldn't say there is less talent in music around, I would say there seems to be a lot more generic artists producing similar music. Sadly streaming has reduced the amount of people who sit down and just listen to a album. Music now to a lot of people seems to just be background noise whilst their doing something else.

I still buy my music physically whether that be on CD or Vinyl, heck I'll buy on Cassette if that's the only option. If you have artists you really like the best way to support them is buying physical copies of there music or merch. A standard Vinyl release can cost from £20-£40 here in the UK. CD's tend to be around £11 at release. Either way you'll need to stream those albums a ridiculous number of times to get anywhere close to earning the artist the same amount of money as they get from the physical releases.
 
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I think Spotify’s approach here is the right one. Being able to sell subscriptions in a free app without going through Apple’s App Store service means developers can get all the benefits of Apple’s centralised App Store without paying anything for the privilege (other than a token yearly fee).

I wonder if Apple will let other apps do this.

I use the Podcast player Overcast by Marco Arment. I also pay a $10/year subscription for premium features, and I also want to support his work.

As it is right now... Marco can't get the full $10/year since Apple must take their cut. (I'm not sure if Marco is above or below the threshold for the 15% or 30% cut)

But if I could pay him directly on his website... and simply log into the app... then he would get the full $10/year.

I'm guessing there is cost-analysis that needs to be done in order for a developer to determine whether or not it's worth the time, money and hassle to set this all up. And that leads me to the next point below:

I suppose this is why Dutch dating apps still need to pay Apple a 27% commission, although that’s a lot more bureaucratic and expensive to administer than the current approach.

Couldn't these dating apps have websites for customers to create accounts and pay for subscriptions? Thus avoiding Apple's fees altogether like Spotify, Netflix, and others? Seems like the dating apps could follow in their footsteps.

But then there's another argument altogether... many people like having Apple handle all their payments and subscriptions. It's easy and convenient... and it's pretty safe. You won't have you credit card number attached to a bunch of different companies. But Apple charges a fee for that.

Like you... I'm interested to see how this all shakes out.

:)
 
I wonder if Apple will let other apps do this.

I use the Podcast player Overcast by Marco Arment. I also pay a $10/year subscription for premium features, and I also want to support his work.

As it is right now... Marco can't get the full $10/year since Apple must take their cut. (I'm not sure if Marco is above or below the threshold for the 15% or 30% cut)

But if I could pay him directly on his website... and simply log into the app... then he would get the full $10/year.

I'm guessing there is cost-analysis that needs to be done in order for a developer to determine whether or not it's worth the time, money and hassle to set this all up. And that leads me to the next point below:



Couldn't these dating apps have websites for customers to create accounts and pay for subscriptions? Thus avoiding Apple's fees altogether like Spotify, Netflix, and others? Seems like the dating apps could follow in their footsteps.

But then there's another argument altogether... many people like having Apple handle all their payments and subscriptions. It's easy and convenient... and it's pretty safe. You won't have you credit card number attached to a bunch of different companies. But Apple charges a fee for that.

Like you... I'm interested to see how this all shakes out.

:)
If Apple is forced to allow apps be available from its App Store, with IAP that circumvents Apple’s commission, then Apple will have to change its entire pricing structure to replace the lost revenue from this.

Its the replacement pricing structure that is most concerning because I can only see an outcome where everything becomes more expensive for consumers as more bureaucracy and friction is added.

Theres also the worse experience consumers will have when they can’t administer all of their subscriptions from one central point.
 
If you charge $10/month for your music service, it is anticompetitive to take 30% of your competitors $10/month music service.

If you owned a store in a mall selling (price-controlled) Rolexes and the mall opened their own store next door to you selling the same Rolexes, you'd cry foul.

But the mall analogy still isn't as bad as the App Store... The mall does incur lost revenue (not leasing finite space to another tenant) with their own store where Apple does not. And you can at least move malls.
If you sell music and another company wants to sell music in your store, you will not do that for free.
 
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So lets say a large group of White males came together, and decided to build a Bus Company, they then used their skills to construct the bus, planned the routes, installed the bus stops, and once up and running, they said only white people could use their bus.

Black people complained this was not fair on them.

You are saying that as the Bus system isn't the creation on these black people, then the black people should "create their own and make their own rules?"

As a society we have agreed this behaviour is not acceptable.

Do you still feel that "if you don't like something then make your own" is a fair system to run the world by?

This is a terrible analogy because anyone trying to start a company with such racist policies would find they are breaking the law immediately and wouldn't get a license to operate full stop.

Spotify is also using a broken analogy. If we were to follow their logic then all supermarkets must stop selling their own products because they are acting as both referee (store owner) and player (product manufacturer). And don't you just think it's so unfair that when you go into Burger King you cannot buy a Big Mac!!

You have a choice to walk into McDonalds or Burger King, and I'm pretty sure anyone that does, knows exactly what they will get. Similarly, consumers can decide to purchase an Android device or an iPhone, and I'm also sure most people that purchase an iPhone know they are buying into a closed ecosystem. Actually, in the case of Apple, opening up the 'walled garden' will reduce consumer choice because users will no longer have the option to buy into such a highly regulated and protected space.

Spotify does have a bit of a point (albeit they try to make it with a nonsensical analogy), its not realistic for anyone but the largest of corporations to actually attempt to create a rival service/device and services such as app stores have got to where they are now because a lot of other companies have added value to them. Be honest, who would use a competing device if you couldn't get all your favourite Apps such as music, banking, etc on it?

But I definitely feel that as long as there are options for open walled ecosystems (such as Android) then consumer choice is satisfied. And Apple makes such a big deal about the closed nature of its systems, and all the advantages they bring in terms of user experience, interoperability, security, etc, its hard not to draw the conclusion they have achieved their enormous market share because this is what a lot of people actually want.
 
No. No no no. This is completely wrong. If you want to use brick and mortar stores as an analogy, here's a great example of how that works, courtesy of mrcheckout.net

"The typical breakdown of margins are: If a products costs $1 to produce, that product will retail for $4. That product that retails for $4 will wholesale for $2 to distributors and stores that purchase direct. Big box retailers like Target may offer to pay $1.25 to the manufacturer if the product costs $1 to produce. That is the typical profit margin."

Companies like Target still sell their own branded products right alongside these items from other vendors. Items that they take a huge cut of every sale of every time they're sold.

Running a brick and mortar store like Target (or even a massive digital store like the App Store) requires a lot of expense (in Apple's case, not just hosting, but R&D, marketing, teams to approve apps and support developers, etc.). There is nothing stopping Spotify from building their own phone and app store, just like there's nothing stopping Johnny the Candlemaker from building a Target competitor. In both cases, they just don't want to pony up the expense to do it themselves. And they feel entitled to reap free benefits off of the expense that Apple has paid to build this platform.

Apple is in the right on this one, 100%. Here's hoping they win, and win big.

Stores also position their house brand products adjacent to competing name brand products on the shelf. The store dictates how their shelves are arranged, where the products are placed, and the most valuable spaces, at eye level, or on the end caps, can also go to the brands willing to negotiate deals for more favorable shelf placement.

Which brands should be promoted in their sales, or featured in places like their flyers? Again, up to the store, or in conjunction with the brand.

The store also has the data on what sells, what doesn't, and exploits that to determine which products it offers through its house brands.

They can also choose which payment methods they accept, and the methods in which they accept them (like eschewing a higher fee card like AMEX, or NFC payments).

OP also tacitly recognizes, but fails to acknowledge that malls have complete control over their tenant mix, and if they choose to introduce a second jewelry store selling Rolexes into the mix, including their own, that is their call.

The net lease agreements that stores enter into with mall owners may also specify that their tenants can be responsible for taxes, maintenance, insurance, in addition to rent itself. Or, with percentage leases, the landlord also demands…gasp… a cut of the revenues from the store!

Don't a lot of these things sound strangely familiar? They should, and even those who haven't studied business, economics, or done business themselves should be able to recognize that all these evil things that Apple does are hardly unique. They just haven't attracted the same kind of scrutiny, brought upon by CEOs of companies who grandstand to promote their own self interests. #1 baby, and again, no different that what Apple is doing. There are no saints in business, but plenty of hypocrites.
 
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False analogies are a GREAT way to skew the conversation to your liking.

The referee/player analogy is a disingenuous way to suggest that Apple shouldn't be allowed to offer any services on their own platform that anyone else offers - either that or they should not be allowed to collect a fee for developing and maintaining and policing the platform in any way.

That's just nonsensical.

This isn't to say there aren't valid concerns and criticisms of Apple's App Store model, primarily around the size of Apple's cut, because there most certainly are.

However, to make it a false "either or" argument by using a misplaced metaphor is a crooked way to play this game.
 
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As a consumer I am of little interest in these commercial and political aspects.
Personally, I switched from Spotify to Apple Music because it offers a far more complete service:
loselles + hi-res
video
booklets
karaoke + voice volume control
Apple Musical Classical

For my type of use, Apple is the best service and also it has a competitive price.
 
That’s precisely what Spotify wants. They want direct access to Apple’s customers, and they want to be able to leverage on the apple platform, without needing to pay a single cent in return.
Exactly. Much like Epic Games, really.

Apple is a business, not a charity. I'm not sure why the term "fan boi" is getting tossed around. Anyone with any sense can see why Apple charges certain fees. The App Store isn't free to maintain. Would these people rather see* Apples own employees go unpaid for the work they do so that other companies can run rough shod over them for freebies?
 
If you charge $10/month for your music service, it is anticompetitive to take 30% of your competitors $10/month music service.

If you owned a store in a mall selling (price-controlled) Rolexes and the mall opened their own store next door to you selling the same Rolexes, you'd cry foul.

But the mall analogy still isn't as bad as the App Store... The mall does incur lost revenue (not leasing finite space to another tenant) with their own store where Apple does not. And you can at least move malls.
But Spotify doesn't give Apple 30%. It's a free app. You sign up on Spotify's own site and give them 100% of your money. "But" you say "if Apple didn't get the 30% cut Spotify could get subscriptions directly from the app and get even MORE money - so that's the anticompetitive element". Perhaps - if Spotify could show that they are being disadvantaged by this - but they remain the No1 Music app on the App Store and the No1 music streaming service globally. Tough sell if you ask me.
 
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That's beside the point. Sure, not offering transactions through the store is a possibility, but it still puts those developers at a disadvantage when at the same time Apple can offer transactions through the store without paying a fee.

The entire fact that Apple dictates a singular way to access apps is just wrong.

Imagine a single company controlled the only way you could install software on your computer. That would sound ludicrous, wouldn't it?
No it wouldn't sound ludicrous if that's what that manufacturer sold the computer for and you knew that and agreed to it when you bought it. Perhaps it's a computer with a very specific purpose (maybe it runs nuclear power stations) and you agree not to install Solitaire on it and the manufacturer locks down the OS so you can't - that would be reasonable. If it's a general purpose computer, and is sold as such, then you probably would call foul if you couldn't install a programme of your choice on it. But have Apple sold their devices as general purpose computers and have you agreed to buy them as one? No they have not and you have not. They sell them as a platform to make them money. Whether they are in breach of anti-monopoly legislation depends on the local legislation.
 
That’s precisely what Spotify wants. They want direct access to Apple’s customers, and they want to be able to leverage on the apple platform, without needing to pay a single cent in return.

Aren't we there already?

In 2016 Spotify stopped letting new users subscribe in the iOS app... thus eliminating Apple's 30% cut on those new users.

Then they spent the next few years emailing their existing customers who subscribed in the iOS app to consider moving their Premium account payments to the website.

And finally just a few months ago Spotify stopped in-app transactions altogether. So the tiny percentage of remaining legacy subscribers had to move their payments to the web.

So in a sense... Spotify got exactly what they wanted. No more 30% cut... and people can still listen to Spotify on their iOS devices! Seems like that was their goal all along, right?

:p
 
You would be surprised about the rules we have here. No vacuum cleaning between noon and 2 pm and not at all on Sundays, you are technically not allowed to throw away glass bottles after 7 pm and your dog is (again technically) only allowed to bark 30 minutes per day, not after 10 pm and only 10 minutes at a time oh and of course it’s illegal to clean your car on your property. I am actually surprised it took them so long to regulate the digital market
You’re hopefully trolling because that’s all your landlord and 0% EU regulations.

No such laws exist in the EU. That’s the place you live, not EU laws.
 
You’re hopefully trolling because that’s all your landlord and 0% EU regulations.

No such laws exist in the EU. That’s the place you live, not EU laws.

Not EU laws but in fact regulations of Germany. We have these lovely "Ordnungsamt" officers roaming the streets making sure you do not break any regulations.

The exact hours can vary. Traditionally the quiet time was from 8pm to 7am, but it’s becoming more common to find this relaxed to 10pm to 6am. It’s best to check the specific rules for where you live to be sure. Sundays, however, are considered quiet time for the entire day. These German Sunday laws mean you’re not allowed to:

  • Do loud DIY jobs, like hammering or drilling
  • Play loud music music, or hold noisy gatherings
  • Run noise-making electrical appliances like vacuum cleaners. Doing laundry seems to still be up for debate.
  • Wash your car (except at a car wash, if you can find one that’s open)
  • Drop your glass recycling off at the bottle bank.
  • Hold a barbecue or party outside of your property if it might disturb others.
  • Or do anything else that could infringe on your neighbour’s peace and quiet.
During quiet hours between 10 p.m. to 6 a.m. and 1 to 3 p.m., dog owners must ensure neighbors are not disturbed by barking, whining or howling. Outside these hours, dog owners must ensure dog noises do not last longer than 10 minutes in a row, respectively exceed 30 minutes cumulatively per day.

If you fall foul of these rules which govern German quiet time, you could find yourself on the receiving end of complaints from your neighbours, being hit with a fine, or end up being taken to court.

bremen-ordnungsamt-kontrolle-corona-massnahmen-100~_v-1280x720_c-1598025963463.jpg

 
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Spotify has been largely responsible for the downfall in music standards.

When millions of people can just stream music cheaply or freely there is much less incentive on musicians and producers to WORK REALLY HARD to make great music and sell it.

So we no longer have talent on the level of David Bowie, Freddie Mercury, Stevie Wonder, etc.

That was a golden generation because they WORKED REALLY HARD to make great music and sell it.

Actual sales. Physical media that is well presented and looks great on your shelves. You are a real music fan who collects music who lives to make their home look great.

Real music fans buy music and many still prefer to support independent retail stores.

When was the last time rent seeker Daniel Elk visited a record store and bought physical media for full price?

Nope…

There is a small nice docu about this: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt21882380/

With Napster the music industry profit went down from 25.2 Billion (in 1999) to 14.8 Billion (in 2011), thanks to Spotify and other Streaming services the profit went back up to a healthy 23.1 Billion (in 2020).

I would not start finger pointing at Spotify or any other music streaming services, they kinda saved the music industry.

We no longer have talent on the level of David Bowie, Freddie Mercury, Stevie Wonder, etc., simply because now a day kids mainly prefer to listen to vulgar crap. That’s one of the reasons why I left AppleMusic, their Beats Music Stations was mainly serving vulgar gangster crap, dunno how it is today.
 
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Not EU laws but in fact regulations of Germany. We have these lovely "Ordnungsamt" officers roaming the streets making sure you do not break any regulations.

The exact hours can vary. Traditionally the quiet time was from 8pm to 7am, but it’s becoming more common to find this relaxed to 10pm to 6am. It’s best to check the specific rules for where you live to be sure. Sundays, however, are considered quiet time for the entire day. These German Sunday laws mean you’re not allowed to:

  • Do loud DIY jobs, like hammering or drilling
  • Play loud music music, or hold noisy gatherings
  • Run noise-making electrical appliances like vacuum cleaners. Doing laundry seems to still be up for debate.
  • Wash your car (except at a car wash, if you can find one that’s open)
  • Drop your glass recycling off at the bottle bank.
  • Hold a barbecue or party outside of your property if it might disturb others.
  • Or do anything else that could infringe on your neighbour’s peace and quiet.
During quiet hours between 10 p.m. to 6 a.m. and 1 to 3 p.m., dog owners must ensure neighbors are not disturbed by barking, whining or howling. Outside these hours, dog owners must ensure dog noises do not last longer than 10 minutes in a row, respectively exceed 30 minutes cumulatively per day.

If you fall foul of these rules which govern German quiet time, you could find yourself on the receiving end of complaints from your neighbours, being hit with a fine, or end up being taken to court.

bremen-ordnungsamt-kontrolle-corona-massnahmen-100~_v-1280x720_c-1598025963463.jpg
Again not EU law or regulations.
 
What kind of dystopia has tech CEOs arguing over how many billions they get to take from each other and the consumer all while those who actually create the content, the artists/creators, earn next to nothing and won’t even see a pay increase if Spotify got exempt from paying Apple any fees altogether?
 
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I wonder if Apple will let other apps do this.

I use the Podcast player Overcast by Marco Arment. I also pay a $10/year subscription for premium features, and I also want to support his work.

As it is right now... Marco can't get the full $10/year since Apple must take their cut. (I'm not sure if Marco is above or below the threshold for the 15% or 30% cut)

But if I could pay him directly on his website... and simply log into the app... then he would get the full $10/year.

I'm guessing there is cost-analysis that needs to be done in order for a developer to determine whether or not it's worth the time, money and hassle to set this all up. And that leads me to the next point below:



Couldn't these dating apps have websites for customers to create accounts and pay for subscriptions? Thus avoiding Apple's fees altogether like Spotify, Netflix, and others? Seems like the dating apps could follow in their footsteps.

But then there's another argument altogether... many people like having Apple handle all their payments and subscriptions. It's easy and convenient... and it's pretty safe. You won't have you credit card number attached to a bunch of different companies. But Apple charges a fee for that.

Like you... I'm interested to see how this all shakes out.

:)
Anyone can do this now, been this way for years.
However you HAVE to have at least some free functionality. Can’t remember name but one app just had a small game to satisfy this rule if you hadn’t purchased through their website!
 
What kind of dystopia has tech CEOs arguing over how many billions they get to take from each other and the consumer all while those who actually create the content, the artists/creators, earn next to nothing and won’t even see a pay increase if Spotify got exempt from paying Apple any fees altogether?
That's the problem brought about by the internet and the streaming model in general - by making content so widely available, it has largely devalued them because customers now have way more options than they actually have time to consume them.

You may think - it's great that the internet makes my music readily accessible to everyone around the world. The problem is that it also makes everyone's music readily accessible around the world, so unless you are a household name like Taylor Swift, what exactly is going to make your music stand out from the rest of the pack? You are effectively competing against the rest of the world.

Spotify basically conditioned people to expect an infinite supply of music for just $10 a year, and Apple jumped on the bandwagon, because what have they got to lose? To Apple, it's another ecosystem feature to attract and retain users, they can afford to keep their music streaming service afloat indefinitely, and it just integrates better with my other apple devices, so it's basically insurance against Spotify trying to hold their platform hostage the same way Google tried to with google maps.
 
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Not EU laws but in fact regulations of Germany. We have these lovely "Ordnungsamt" officers roaming the streets making sure you do not break any regulations.

The exact hours can vary. Traditionally the quiet time was from 8pm to 7am, but it’s becoming more common to find this relaxed to 10pm to 6am. It’s best to check the specific rules for where you live to be sure. Sundays, however, are considered quiet time for the entire day. These German Sunday laws mean you’re not allowed to:

  • Do loud DIY jobs, like hammering or drilling
  • Play loud music music, or hold noisy gatherings
  • Run noise-making electrical appliances like vacuum cleaners. Doing laundry seems to still be up for debate.
  • Wash your car (except at a car wash, if you can find one that’s open)
  • Drop your glass recycling off at the bottle bank.
  • Hold a barbecue or party outside of your property if it might disturb others.
  • Or do anything else that could infringe on your neighbour’s peace and quiet.
During quiet hours between 10 p.m. to 6 a.m. and 1 to 3 p.m., dog owners must ensure neighbors are not disturbed by barking, whining or howling. Outside these hours, dog owners must ensure dog noises do not last longer than 10 minutes in a row, respectively exceed 30 minutes cumulatively per day.

If you fall foul of these rules which govern German quiet time, you could find yourself on the receiving end of complaints from your neighbours, being hit with a fine, or end up being taken to court.

bremen-ordnungsamt-kontrolle-corona-massnahmen-100~_v-1280x720_c-1598025963463.jpg

Well, many people are ignorants and egos, you need em in crowded regions, as your picture shows it’s a bigger city center, otherwise people take the law into their own hands. Specially since Germany is getting more and more multi cultural, you get culture clash all the time.

If I would live in a bigger city, I also would not like to wake up at 3am just because somebody decided to drill into a wall next to me. Or have to walk slalom down the road just to not step into dog 💩 , like in Pisa(Italy). Or have my fresh washed hung clothes getting smoked by some barbecue. Car wash laws also makes sense, that’s why Germany has one of the best groundwater in the world, and it even don’t light up when you put a lighter near it, you can drink it directly out of the water-tap without doing any filtering.
All these regulations makes sense!

Luckily I have a house in the outback and no stress.
 
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IMG_9441.jpeg


How’s that native HomePod support going btw? Surely now that Apple allows you to integrate its just a matter of days before the update drops, right?
 
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