Spotify, Epic Games, and Others Argue Apple's App Store Changes Do Not Comply With DMA

[thejadedmonkey]

This makes me love and trust Apple more and more. It’s their iPhone. People buy their iPhone knowing what they get. They could always not an iPhone. Tough **** to these developers. I hope they lose and the EU stays out of it.

Nahh, people (such as myself) also buy iPhones despite knowing what they're get, because the alternative is to sit in the 20th century, or use Google.

If Microsoft still made Windows phones, I'd be using one of them in a heartbeat. It's not even close.

 

[josefnorlin]

2024 Apple gives me major "late 90's Microsoft" vibes

...but worse

Yep! This is bullying. Great work Apple! If I only could switch platform. Oh, no, wait. They locked us all in. Go EU!

 

[SanderEvers]

* Looks at the list of companies that wrote the letter *

Now let me uninstall their apps from all my devices...

2 seconds later (uninstalling nothing) done. Okay, that felt good.
Sadly uninstalling the EU from my country is going to take a lot of work.

 

[mdnz]

"Core Technology" There it is. Put up or shut up. Either STOP USING Apple's developers' work, or PAY FOR IT. 🤷‍♂️

It works the other way also, app developers provide "free" labour to enhance the Apple platform. Maybe developers should also charge Apple a fee everytime they contribute something to the platform?

 

[MrTemple]

So like.... Android.... MacOS, Windows.... last I checked, they all work like this.
I mean it's kind of like expected that if you want people using your platform and OS you provide tools, APIs, etc. App store greed isn't the only way to make money - and this is laughable. Apple, the company that has screwed developers for years with excessive fees under the guise of their control freak nature, er, review process, being why.

Once again, I said I couldn't get PAID.

Developers don't get paid on those other stores. Or at least 99.999% couldn't without iOS money subsidizing that development. It's just nowhere near profitable.

Also... Google absolutely IS getting paid for each user. And not just in the cut they charge of transactions! Their (sometimes) reduced cut is subsidized by the cash-value they are harvesting out of the user's much less private usage.

 

[AndiG]

Come on EU, drag‘em!!!

 

[thejadedmonkey]

There are no scare screens. You can get an app into the App Store without import Foundation and all the other convenience code. Without 90% of it being Apple's code (most apps on the store would need at LEAST 10x the code to get half the app experience users expect).

Right now, the way that Apple is choosing to interpret the EU rules means that you need to go through a scare screen just to install a 3rd party app store.

Yes, I suppose I could avoid using import Foundation today, but you still need to go through Apple for a "security" review and their code signing. There's still no install option without the app store. I'm no fan of the GPL license, but IMO Apple is just as bad as the GLP, but on the other end of the spectrum.

 

[RigSatMe]

Apple, please close down EU! Apple will easily get without EU rotten approach!

 

[ThaGoochiestMane]

"Core Technology" There it is. Put up or shut up. Either STOP USING Apple's developers' work, or PAY FOR IT. 🤷‍♂️

iOS dev here who literally could never make a penny without standing on the shoulders of thousands of Apple iOS devs, who’ve put in uncountable years of effort into areas I basically have zero experience or expertise in. 👋

Most people claiming Apple's cut is unearned don’t know what “import Foundation” does at the top of literally every iOS code file in literally every AppStore app. (Hint: It's not necessary to get an app into the App Store!)

Ditto for:

import UIKit
import SwiftUI
import CryptoKit
Button()
let task = URLSession.shared.dataTask(with: session)
etc, etc, etc…

Literally 💯 of iOS apps use code written by Apple to do a staggering amount of their work.

ZERO apps roll their own custom code instead of using the mountain of frameworks and APIs that Apple has built and perfected (complete with expected features like free dark mode, rotation, language, compat across device, accessibility size, backgrounding, persistence, etc, etc, etc features).

ZERO apps do this because it would cost 10-20x as much to develop, and nobody would pay for the lesser experience.

Even the simplest app would take literal years more development, and STILL not achieve anything close to feature parity by dropping in Apple’s code with zero effort.

Oh, and when iOS updates with new features, or a new style? INSTANTLY that app needs massive work to retain feature parity with other apps that did zero work to match style or make use of many new features. (Sometimes a TEENY bit of work to make a huge new feature work if you want.)

Show me an app developer who doesn’t lean HEAVILY on Apple’s developers’ work, and I’ll show you somebody who gets to talk about the “outrageous” price Apple charges for their work. 🙄

So, you're saying it's essentially just like property tax?

It doesn't matter if you already paid for a developer account/etc. because you're still on Apple's land, and you'd never be able to set up shop there if it weren't for Apple priming the "land" for you in the first place.

 

[Pakaku]

Considering how hard Epic tried to skirt around Apple's rules in the first place, it's funny to hear them call out Apple for not complying

I don't know, I don't think either side had good intentions here, so what do I care

 

[Mescagnus]

Ahh, the usual suspects whiners again

 

[TigerNike23]

I’d like to point out absolutely no one here cares for the users. This is all multi-billion dollar mega companies battling over who can rake in more profits.

 

[Timo_Existencia]

* Looks at the list of companies that wrote the letter *

Now let me uninstall their apps from all my devices...

2 seconds later (uninstalling nothing) done. Okay, that felt good.
Sadly uninstalling the EU from my country is going to take a lot of work.

I was going to make this exact comment.

Here's a nice, tidy list of companies I'll never support.

 

[DelayedGratificationGene]

The margin on games/music services/video services is often 30% or less. They spent a fortune on lawyers because they break even or lose money but can't not offer their products on such a large platform.

You clearly don't understand the economics. Stores that sell physical media (games, gaming cards, subscription cards) net 10% or less in margin and have to physically stock shelves for it. The App store (Google Play included... though Google and MS greatly reduced commissions on these categories to 10%) is a mafia level exploitation. Google, even before reducing fees, allowed sideloaded apps and alternate apps stores and Android is open unlike IOS.

Lol I highly doubt Epic is not making money off of Apple platform. Epic is not getting a free ride where Apple has to absorb all the platform hosting expenses. This is free market economy not socialism!

 

[MrTemple]

Right now, the way that Apple is choosing to interpret the EU rules means that you need to go through a scare screen just to install a 3rd party app store.

Yes, I suppose I could avoid using import Foundation today, but you still need to go through Apple for a "security" review and their code signing. There's still no install option without the app store. I'm no fan of the GPL license, but IMO Apple is just as bad as the GLP, but on the other end of the spectrum.

Completely separate issue from the payment cut.

And one that is absolutely necessary, for entirely different reasons. Mostly how many millions of completely non-tech people would get scammed blind and causing god-awful trickle effects on to their family members, after hundreds of milllions of people would be trained by Spotify, Netflix, MLB, and the dozen other apps that sideloading and clicking through those warning screens is a perfectly acceptable way to install an app from wellsfargo.bank.ru? 🙄

These people have nowhere near–NOWHERE near–the same level of tech competence as somebody who's ever sideloaded an app on Android, or installed an app on a personal computer.

You absolutely cannot underestimate the people with single-digit tech IQs.

 

[MrTemple]

So, you're saying it's essentially just like property tax?

It doesn't matter if you already paid for a developer account/etc. because you're still on Apple's land, and you'd never be able to set up shop there if it weren't for Apple priming the "land" for you in the first place.

Not even close.

It's like pay the builders who, after the ground was levelled and concrete was poured, built all the walls, floors, trusses, roof, and siding.

Instead of just paying the architect, drywaller, flooring guys, and painters.

Honest question, did you know that this is literally how every app on your iPhone was built?

 

[dannyyankou]

Spotify pretending like they're looking out for the little guy complaining about the €0.50 "Core Technology Fee". This only applies for every download over 1 million.

But maybe they have a point. Maybe it's too high. Maybe a more fair fee would be €0.004 per app download? Just picking a random number, not related to Spotify at all.

 

[Sevendaymelee]

For the hundredth time... until Apple plays hardball and calls these crooks out, this will not stop. They will just take more, and more, and more, because it's never been about what they're saying. It always been about greed and corruption; backdoor deals in dark rooms etc. Apple is going to have to get tough on this and fight back. There is no other option.

 

[Timo_Existencia]

For the hundredth time... until Apple plays hardball and calls these crooks out, this will not stop. They will just take more, and more, and more, because it's never been about what they're saying. It always been about greed and corruption; backdoor deals in dark rooms etc. Apple is going to have to get tough on this and fight back. There is no other option.

Completley agree. And their recent actions give me hope that they are ready to fight.

Here's hoping.

 

[klasma]

"Core Technology" There it is. Put up or shut up. Either STOP USING Apple's developers' work, or PAY FOR IT. 🤷‍♂️

iOS dev here who literally could never make a penny without standing on the shoulders of thousands of Apple iOS devs, who’ve put in uncountable years of effort into areas I basically have zero experience or expertise in. 👋

Most people claiming Apple's cut is unearned don’t know what “import Foundation” does at the top of literally every iOS code file in literally every AppStore app. (Hint: It's not necessary to get an app into the App Store!)

Ditto for:

import UIKit
import SwiftUI
import CryptoKit
Button()
let task = URLSession.shared.dataTask(with: session)
etc, etc, etc…

Literally 💯 of iOS apps use code written by Apple to do a staggering amount of their work.

ZERO apps roll their own custom code instead of using the mountain of frameworks and APIs that Apple has built and perfected (complete with expected features like free dark mode, rotation, language, compat across device, accessibility size, backgrounding, persistence, etc, etc, etc features).

ZERO apps do this because it would cost 10-20x as much to develop, and nobody would pay for the lesser experience.

Even the simplest app would take literal years more development, and STILL not achieve anything close to feature parity by dropping in Apple’s code with zero effort.

Oh, and when iOS updates with new features, or a new style? INSTANTLY that app needs massive work to retain feature parity with other apps that did zero work to match style or make use of many new features. (Sometimes a TEENY bit of work to make a huge new feature work if you want.)

Show me an app developer who doesn’t lean HEAVILY on Apple’s developers’ work, and I’ll show you somebody who gets to talk about the “outrageous” price Apple charges for their work. 🙄

It would be fine if Apple would ask some fee for using their libraries, with the alternative for developers being to implement everything by themselves. I’m sure this would foster a lot of nice open-source implementations. But that’s not what Apple is doing. IOS developers are not being offered any choice here.

You see, Apple depends on apps being written for their devices just as much as developers are relying on devices existing they can write apps for. But Apple is abusing this relationship in their favor, and also to the detriment of their users.

 

[macmac30]

Spotify, Epic Games, Deezer, Paddle, and several other developers and EU associations today sent a joint letter to the European Commission to complain about Apple's "proposed scheme for compliance" with the Digital Markets Act (DMA).

The 34 companies and associations do not believe Apple's plans "meet the law's requirements." Apple's changes "disregard both the spirit and letter of the law" and if left unchanged, will "make a mockery of the DMA," according to the letter. Several specific components of Apple's plan are highlighted, including the Core Technology Fee, the Notarization process, and the terms that developers must accept.

• Apple's requirement to stay with the current App Store terms or opt in to new terms provides developers with "an unworkable choice" that adds complexity and confusion. The letter suggests that neither option is DMA compliant and would "consolidate Apple's stronghold over digital markets."
  
• The Core Technology Fee and transaction fees will hamper competition and will prevent developers from agreeing to the "unjust terms."
  
• Apple is using "unfounded privacy and security concerns" to limit user choice. The "scare screens" that Apple plans to show users will "mislead and degrade the user experience."
  
• Apple is not allowing sideloading, and it is making the installation and use of new app stores "difficult, risky and financially unattractive for developers."

The companies and associations are urging the European Union to take "swift, timely and decisive action against Apple." The way the European Commission responds to Apple's proposal "will serve as a litmus test of the DMA and whether it can deliver for Europe's citizens and economy."

Apple is required to comply with the Digital Markets Act by March 7, and the app ecosystem changes baked are baked in to iOS 17.4. We are expecting to see iOS 17.4 released early next week, and that is when alternative app marketplaces, alternative payment methods, and the new terms that Apple has designed for developers will go into effect.

In support of the changes that it is implementing, Apple today published a whitepaper outlining the risks that it is attempting to mitigate with the Notarization process and other requirements alternative app marketplaces and the apps installed through those marketplaces must submit to.

Article Link: Spotify, Epic Games, and Others Argue Apple's App Store Changes Do Not Comply With DMA

I am so tired of these frickin’ cry babies. You want access to over 2 billion devices And want to eat your cake as well? As Elon would say, GFY!

 

[one more]

Yep, early days, we still have not heard anything official from the EU regulators about Apple’s proposed system. In fact, the alt app stores are not even up yet, so we shall see over the coming weeks (or months?) how this all plays out, both for Apple and developers willing to go their own way.

 

[10anta]

So develop for Android 🤷‍♂️

 

[MilaM]

ZERO apps roll their own custom code instead of using the mountain of frameworks and APIs that Apple has built and perfected (complete with expected features like free dark mode, rotation, language, compat across device, accessibility size, backgrounding, persistence, etc, etc, etc features).

You're not wrong. But it should also be mentioned, that Apple wants and needs third party developers on their platform. IPhones would be far less attractive without all the apps those devs have worked very hard to develop. It's not a coincidence that first party SDKs can be used for free on most platforms.

 

[klasma]

Apple, please close down EU! Apple will easily get without EU rotten approach!

The EU is 25% of Apple’s total revenue, but only 7% of the app store revenue. You think they will forego the 25% because they don’t want to lose the 7%?