Spotify Sides With Epic Games in Battle Against Apple's App Store Fees

[mrcloaked]

My eyes are open.

 

[Aoligei]

Then don't buy an iOS device.

This is the point that seems to be missed by people misunderstanding anti-competitive legislation. If Apple had a monopoly, you wouldn't have a choice...of buying another device.

Apple can control how you interact with their ecosystem.
Apple does not have the right to control *whether* you interact with their ecosystem.

If you want to claim that you should be able to do whatever you want with a device you own, that court battle has already been won. Users are free to open their iOS devices to alternate ecosystems...but Apple doesn't have to support you when you do that.

These concepts shouldn't be complicated; not sure why people are having such difficult understanding them.

You know this is really funny. Rather than embrace choice for users, ask users to choose competition. Great business sense.

And don't worry, as I have mentioned in previous thread, I am able to side-load application on iOS devices. I have not spend any money through App Store and I will never intend to.

If App Developer provide a way for me to pay them directly, then I will happy to pay them. I am not willing to let Apple keep 30% of my money, I would rather want them take all of my payments.

--Sent from my Android phone

 

[Piggie]

Can we all agree on two points:

1: Apple at this moment in time does not allow Game streaming services, and they use the rather strange reason that they cannot review and vet every game as the reason for this (though they don't vet other streaming media)

That's point one and where we are today.

2: Apple will be forced to change this policy either through industry, legal or customer pressure.
There is no way as time goes on, every single platform will allow games streaming and Apple won't.

Personally I feel these two are facts, plain and simple.

My only question is: How do you think Apple will decide to climb down from their current stance without losing face and be seen to be bowing to outside pressure?

They will have to fabricate some reason to make themselves look good for allowing it.
And/Or come up with some "Deal" that financially benefits them to make the change.

They don't want to change, but they are going to have to. Guaranteed.

 

[Nütztjanix]

Can we all agree on two points:

1: Apple at this moment in time does not allow Game streaming services, and they use the rather strange reason that they cannot review and vet every game as the reason for this (though they don't vet other streaming media)

That's point one and where we are today.

2: Apple will be forced to change this policy either through industry, legal or customer pressure.
There is no way as time goes on, every single platform will allow games streaming and Apple won't.

Personally I feel these two are facts, plain and simple.

My only question is: How do you think Apple will decide to climb down from their current stance without losing face and be seen to be bowing to outside pressure?

They will have to fabricate some reason to make themselves look good for allowing it.
And/Or come up with some "Deal" that financially benefits them to make the change.

They don't want to change, but they are going to have to. Guaranteed.

ad 2: Once upon a time, every single platform allowed Flash. Except iOS. I don't say this might/will be the same, but you always should be careful with "There is no way xxx happens" …

In general: I, personally, don't think game streaming is important enough to be a must have. Maybe I'm wrong. All I can say is, none of the people I know say it is a must have - most don't even use it. Then again, that's just my view …

 

[Piggie]

ad 2: Once upon a time, every single platform allowed Flash. Except iOS. I don't say this might/will be the same, but you always should be careful with "There is no way xxx happens" …

In general: I, personally, don't think game streaming is important enough to be a must have. Maybe I'm wrong. All I can say is, none of the people I know say it is a must have - most don't even use it. Then again, that's just my view …

You are right about Flash, but Flash was already in trouble on mobile devices and new products were starting to show their face with the future potential to replace it.

Streaming of everything (Movies, Music, Applications and Games) is the direction we are going it.
Moving the heavy work off your local device and into the cloud makes sense for so many reasons.
We're just not had the broadband speed available to enough people to make this a viable option to enough people.
It's going to take time, but everyone I've heard seems to think, even if not today, or tomorrow, streaming content inc games is the inevitable future as it's just makes so much sense.

 

[Abazigal]

Can we all agree on two points:

1: Apple at this moment in time does not allow Game streaming services, and they use the rather strange reason that they cannot review and vet every game as the reason for this (though they don't vet other streaming media)

That's point one and where we are today.

2: Apple will be forced to change this policy either through industry, legal or customer pressure.
There is no way as time goes on, every single platform will allow games streaming and Apple won't.

Personally I feel these two are facts, plain and simple.

My only question is: How do you think Apple will decide to climb down from their current stance without losing face and be seen to be bowing to outside pressure?

They will have to fabricate some reason to make themselves look good for allowing it.
And/Or come up with some "Deal" that financially benefits them to make the change.

They don't want to change, but they are going to have to. Guaranteed.

I agree with (1) that Apple's reason as given doesn't make any sense, even to me.

I believe that like streaming music, Apple will eventually cave in, but like Apple Music, they are probably looking for a way to do so that puts them on top, so they don't miss a slice of the pie or cede too much power to Microsoft. They might debut their own game streaming platform and work with game developers to bring their games to iOS. They might cut a deal with Microsoft that lets them bring their app to iOS at a special rate. Maybe 10 or 15%?

Reasoning-wise, Apple could say that they are waiting for the technology (eg: 5g) to be ready so that games can stream at a reasonable quality, or something along that line. Apple knows they can't miss the boat, but they don't have to rush into it right away either.

 

[Maximara]

Problem is they can't because there's no other way to make your app available on iOS.

To be clear, I think it's fine for Apple to decide what can and can't go on the App Store. But equally they shouldn't restrict users from installing apps from outside the app store.

They don't. You can install programs that are outside the app store. The free version of Libreoffice for example. Livecode, and many others.

 

[Piggie]

I agree with (1) that Apple's reason as given doesn't make any sense, even to me.

I believe that like streaming music, Apple will eventually cave in, but like Apple Music, they are probably looking for a way to do so that puts them on top, so they don't miss a slice of the pie or cede too much power to Microsoft. They might debut their own game streaming platform and work with game developers to bring their games to iOS. They might cut a deal with Microsoft that lets them bring their app to iOS at a special rate. Maybe 10 or 15%?

Reasoning-wise, Apple could say that they are waiting for the technology (eg: 5g) to be ready so that games can stream at a reasonable quality, or something along that line. Apple knows they can't miss the boat, but they don't have to rush into it right away either.

I agree they can delay.
The market is so new that an amount of delay is still possible, but they can't wait till everyone else is doing it on all platforms to the point that they lose sales from young people.

A special deal sounds possible.
Actually when it comes to Microsoft it's been said a few times, Apple may do a deal and say if Msoft do them a Windows on Arm deal for their arm chips in new Apple machines, then in exchange Apple will allow their x-cloud game streaming.

Only trouble there is, it's harder to say no to other platforms.

 

[macfacts]

I would argue that control (iOS) vs lack of control (android) is in itself a meaningful choice for consumers, especially for less tech-savvy users who prefer their smartphones to work like appliances and less like computers (replete with all the problems that come with an open platform).

This has nothing to do with basic human rights or freedom or whatever amendment you plead, but about recognising that your user base have needs, and how Apple has chosen to go about meeting those needs to as so provide its users with a great user experience.

People keep arguing that Apple needs to open up and make itself more like android, without seemingly realising that many people choose apple devices precisely because it is nothing like android, and that extends to the locked-down manner in which the iOS App Store is run. To them, making iOS more like android isn’t giving them more of what they want, but instead saddling them with more problems that they need to contend with.

I think this is one area where the more tech-savvy online community often comes across as being non-emphatic to their less tech-savvy peers. That in their desire to make the iphone more PC-like for them (just so they can torrent or run Stadia or some other benefit specific to themselves), they also risk exposing the rest of the user base to issues that were never issues on iOS, precisely because of the way it was run from the very start, and their response typically boils down to “It’s not a problem for me, live with it”.

So you are in favor of Ford doing what apple is doing? Forcing all car part manufacturers to sell in the ford store where they can take 30% cut?

 

[Piggie]

It's funny when you think that all the software houses have apple by the balls really if only they realised it.

Get them all to block the apps for 1 week and see Apple panic and change it's ways
Apple owners unable to access all their services would go utterly crazy

 

[Realityck]

It's funny when you think that all the software houses have apple by the balls really if only they realised it.

Get them all to block the apps for 1 week and see Apple panic and change it's ways
Apple owners unable to access all their services would go utterly crazy

Perhaps this example is a excellent justification for using Macintoshs over iPhones and iPads, because you are using a walled eco system with the latter.

Apple have had multiple ads to try to spin it so some are led to believe that a iPad was just as capable as a laptop.

But given the choice of a iPad Pro 12.1" with 512GB for $1299 add a magic keyboard for $299 that $1498.

Then compare that to a $1499 1.4 Ghz quad core 13" MBP laptop with 8GB 2133MHz LPDDR3 memory, 512GB SSD storage, 2560 by 1600 pixels, 500 nits brightness, True Tone technology, what's better to use on a table and more expandable?

 

[pacalis]

Perhaps this example is a excellent justification for using Macintoshs over iPhones and iPads, because you are using a walled eco system with the latter.

Apple have had multiple ads to try to spin it so some are led to believe that a iPad was just as capable as a laptop.

But given the choice of a iPad Pro 12.1" with 512GB for $1299 add a magic keyboard for $299 that $1498.

Then compare that to a $1499 1.4 Ghz quad core 13" MBP laptop with 8GB 2133MHz LPDDR3 memory, 512GB SSD storage, 2560 by 1600 pixels, 500 nits brightness, True Tone technology, what's better to use on a table and more expandable?

A desktop is better to use on a table and more expandable.

I've replaced my laptop with an iPad pro. It's easier to take notes on and attend meetings. It's also, ironically, great to play Fortnite on.

 

[Waragainstsleep]

But you’re not, and thank heavens for that! Your novella opened my eyes and I’ve since realized how erroneous my thinking has been all along.

I didn't say it was an unreasonable way to be. It was an observation not a criticism.

Where did I go wrong; how did I fall so far astray? How could I question such a noble company like Apple? Of course they are right! And you are right! Apple is incredible!

Its become the norm to assume that all companies are basically amoral in their pursuit of profit for understandable reasons but if you compare Apple to most they have to be pretty near the top of the pile. They have half decent policies regarding labour in foreign factories, use and responsibly dispose of chemicals and as I mentioned they tend to come out on the right side of the political issues they declare an interest in. I'm not suggesting they are perfect but if you can name a big company you think is morally better than Apple then by all means go for it.

Now I am a bit flummoxed as to how anyone else survives such hell as other platforms. They must be miserable and crying out for help, how can we save these poor people? Is there anything we can do? How do we convert them to the true way?

Some people just don't have good taste.

 

[funkahdafi]

Agree with other comments. Don't like the platform someone else created for you? Don't sell on it! Pretty simple. Create your own then or follow their rules...

This argument is incredibly short-sighted and not thought through very well. The problem with "don't like it, don't sell on it" is that Apple doesn't give them a choice. Apple's iOS is the only platform on the market that does not allow other means of app distribution other than their own store. If you want to reach Apple customers with your product (which you should be able to in a free market) you are forced to pay the highwayman. This doesn't even exist on macOS.

The issue isn't even the 30%. The issue is that Apple wants a cut from in-app content, even if that is sold outside the App Store.

What I really don't get is why Apple fanboys keep defending Apple's tactics. It's to their own detriment. They defend a monopoly that prevents competition and lower consumer prices. I guess this is a classical case of cognitive dissonance.

 

[Abazigal]

It's funny when you think that all the software houses have apple by the balls really if only they realised it.

Get them all to block the apps for 1 week and see Apple panic and change it's ways
Apple owners unable to access all their services would go utterly crazy

And then they will blame these companies, not Apple.

Even google has to pay 9 billion to Apple to keep search default in safari. This suggests that Apple has a lot more leverage than people give Apple credit for.

I would like to see these companies try. They will not find Apple such easy prey.

 

[jnog88]

It's probably come up on here... but Google ALSO pulled Fortnite from the Play Store and they also charge a 30% kickback on in app purchases and sales... granted there are other ways to get Fortnite on Android aside from the Play Store.

‘Fortnite’ Removed from Apple and Google App Stores as Developer Sues Both Companies

The popular video game was removed from the stores after its developer introduced a direct-payment option to avoid app store fees.

www.msn.com

 

[zorinlynx]

granted there are other ways to get Fortnite on Android aside from the Play Store.

That is the KEY distinction here. An app being removed from the iOS app store is a death sentence for that app on iOS. This is not the case on Android.

Now, some people would say "Just buy an Android device!" but look at this from the perspective of the app developer. A HUGE percentage of their audience is on iOS. Being banned from iOS can ruin an app developer, even if they're on Android too. Not only that but changing platforms is costly and a huge pain in the ass for end users too, so "just get an Android" is like saying "just move" to a homeowner who has a new annoying neighbor and has lived in that house for 40 years.

 

[BR3W]

You're making way too much of that distinction. There are also other ways to put apps on an iOS device, as well.

 

[mrcloaked]

It could be done.

 

[Unregistered 4U]

hated the exact 30% developer tax in Steam so much he made Epic Games Launcher. This whole situation is an in character Tim Sweeney move. It's also just good timing considering everything else Apple has done lately.

Actually is seems like the real Tim Sweeney move would be to work with Samsung to produce an OS platform specifically to challenge Apple. I mean, he created the Epic Games Launcher, why not the Epic Games platform?

2: Apple will be forced to change this policy either through industry, legal or customer pressure.
There is no way as time goes on, every single platform will allow games streaming and Apple won't.

Not necessarily. I mean, right now, today, Apple doesn’t offer 99.999% of all the triple A games being sold today. Streaming would allow those games to stream to Apple, but it’s not like ”having triple A games available” is a huge seller for iPhones or iPads in the first place. Plus, if you MUST play streaming games on something with an Apple logo (are there many of those people?), Apple can always direct folks to macOS. iOS never HAS to have game streaming.

It's funny when you think that all the software houses have apple by the balls really if only they realised it.

Get them all to block the apps for 1 week and see Apple panic and change it's ways
Apple owners unable to access all their services would go utterly crazy

The problem here is that the vast majority of developers are fine with the current situation, so you’d get nowhere near even 50% of developers to agree. And, huh, even if you did, then wouldn’t that be collusion?

 

[mrcloaked]

It's coming.

 

[Waragainstsleep]

This argument is incredibly short-sighted and not thought through very well. The problem with "don't like it, don't sell on it" is that Apple doesn't give them a choice. Apple's iOS is the only platform on the market that does not allow other means of app distribution other than their own store. If you want to reach Apple customers with your product (which you should be able to in a free market) you are forced to pay the highwayman. This doesn't even exist on macOS.

But what makes you think you should be entitled to it being a free market? It was built and paid for entirely privately. Its not a monopoly because there is another option and you can always add build your own competitor and no-one is banned, they just have to abide by certain rules and pay the required percentage. People have to pay huge amounts extra to buy drinks in fancy night clubs instead of low rent bars, or to buy stuff in train stations, airports or motorway services just because they are adjacent to transport.

The issue isn't even the 30%. The issue is that Apple wants a cut from in-app content, even if that is sold outside the App Store.

The issue is subscription services. Developers think they should only pay a one time fee.

What I really don't get is why Apple fanboys keep defending Apple's tactics. It's to their own detriment. They defend a monopoly that prevents competition and lower consumer prices. I guess this is a classical case of cognitive dissonance.

Again, not a monopoly. Its a private endeavour with a cost and conditions for entry. Don't like it, don't enter. You wouldn't have the same objection to a gym membership where you'd feel you should have permanent access without paying membership would you? Even if it was the only gym in your town. Same thing here.

That is the KEY distinction here. An app being removed from the iOS app store is a death sentence for that app on iOS. This is not the case on Android.

Is there a long list of successful Android apps that were exclusively side loaded?

Now, some people would say "Just buy an Android device!" but look at this from the perspective of the app developer. A HUGE percentage of their audience is on iOS. Being banned from iOS can ruin an app developer, even if they're on Android too. Not only that but changing platforms is costly and a huge pain in the ass for end users too, so "just get an Android" is like saying "just move" to a homeowner who has a new annoying neighbor and has lived in that house for 40 years.

All of this is just more good reasons not to pick a fight with your distributors. Especially when you are making decent money.

 

[Unregistered 4U]

There will be.

And they’ll use macOS.

 

[mrcloaked]

It's about the phone.

 

[Nütztjanix]

Gaming just isn't as important in the overall picture as you might think.