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Apple should be proud of themselves, they'll suddenly getting all this attention...
Well, we have come a long way. It used to be that Apple was somehow doomed due to this reason or what. Maybe it was cheap android phones, or smart speakers, or iPhones getting too expensive, or some other manufactured concern of the week. Now, the narrative is about how Apple is getting too successful and powerful and needs to be reined in.

I will say that's progress.
 
I am on Apple's side here. If I am Apple, and I build a store, build all the coding and testing tools (though the latter does come at a $99 price-tag/year) and facilitate access to all my loyal customers, yes, I will want a cut, and if the tenant (the app's owner) prefers not to honour those terms, I will revoke access
The costs of the store and tool can be factored into the price of their devices.
Because first, they are surely using them themselves for their own apps. And more importantly, without third-party apps, Apple's devices wouldn't have any significant market share (nowadays).

An indication of this is the fact there's hundreds of thousands of free apps that Apple is gladly distributing for a yearly "flat" developer fee. And technically they aren't doing much more than that: Distribute a few megabytes from their content delivery network servers to a user's device, where the app gets "installed".
 
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The costs of the store and tool can be factored into the price of their devices.
Because first, they are surely using them themselves for their own apps. And more importantly, without third-party apps, Apple's devices wouldn't have any significant market share (nowadays).

An indication of this is the fact there's hundreds of thousands of free apps that Apple is gladly distributing for a yearly "flat" developer fee. And technically they aren't doing much more than that: Distribute a few megabytes from their content delivery network servers to a user's device, where the app gets "installed".

Maybe that’s because they are being subsidised by the revenue from the more lucrative apps?
 
I love it. I think Apple should be challenged about not giving users options to pay just becuase they want a continous 30% cut on addons. Let the customer decide how they want to pay.
We already have decided how we want to pay...by using the App Store.
 
I think Apple must sell off its App Store business to a third party, and allow users to elect third party stores when they install iOS. There should be a StoreAPI.
 
And again, so what. This doesn't justify not allowing side loading of apps. Guess what, it would solve all of these issues.
The "so what?" was answered in the post you straw-manned: it's not illegal, which was the question being answered.
 
The problem is not Apple forcing their rules on their store. The problem is that they prevent any other method from getting an app on a device you own and justifying it with security claims.

Who says an alternative App Store isn’t safe by default?

Who says no one needs a ******* app?

Who says no one should pay via crypto on their phone?

Who says I shouldn’t be able to use a device I bought to its full potential?

Who says it’s okay to censor some telegram groups or other in app contents bc they don’t fit the device manufacturers values which they force upon u?

Apple does.

It’s just about power and control. And they have way too much. Epics move is brilliant and I hope it changes something.
Who says you have to buy an iPhone?
 
Some of us old timers remember when Microsoft got nailed for bundling IE, and we were all for the punishment meted down on them at the time.

I struggle to see the difference here, but for a lot you, your tune has changed.
Since you're struggling to understand the difference, and I am old enough to have been an adult when that case was in the public discourse, I'll explain it:

MS was using its dominant market share to coerce equipment vendors and retail locations to pre-install Windows and IE. IE was set by default, couldn't be removed, and was integrally tied to the performance of the OS. They also contractually limited OEMs and retailers from pre-installing alternative browsers, which weren't as easily obtainable as they are now (software was still distributed primarily on disk back in the 90's or downloaded on relatively slow dial-up connections prior to the rollout of broadband connections a few years later).

In short, they were accused of abusing their monopoly over the desktop market to gain a competitive edge (second monopoly) in a different market (browsers).

Market share was a necessary but insufficient reason; they were also forcing 3rd parties into agreements to gain a competitive edge. Apple doesn't have the same dominant market share (even if they are more successful monetarily) and the App Store isn't a 3rd party.
 
I have big problem with how Apple restrict App distribution through App Store. They don’t do it on Mac.
Then don't buy an iOS device.

This is the point that seems to be missed by people misunderstanding anti-competitive legislation. If Apple had a monopoly, you wouldn't have a choice...of buying another device.

Apple can control how you interact with their ecosystem.
Apple does not have the right to control *whether* you interact with their ecosystem.

If you want to claim that you should be able to do whatever you want with a device you own, that court battle has already been won. Users are free to open their iOS devices to alternate ecosystems...but Apple doesn't have to support you when you do that.

These concepts shouldn't be complicated; not sure why people are having such difficult understanding them.
 
Then don't buy an iOS device.

This is the point that seems to be missed by people misunderstanding anti-competitive legislation. If Apple had a monopoly, you wouldn't have a choice...of buying another device.

Apple can control how you interact with their ecosystem.
Apple does not have the right to control *whether* you interact with their ecosystem.

If you want to claim that you should be able to do whatever you want with a device you own, that court battle has already been won. Users are free to open their iOS devices to alternate ecosystems...but Apple doesn't have to support you when you do that.

These concepts shouldn't be complicated; not sure why people are having such difficult understanding them.
Because they want to have the cake and eat it, too.
 
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If Apple win this fight, I hope they become really greedy evil, and jail mac users into their new ARM macOS platform just like iOS. Disallow thirdparty software bundles, disallow thirdparty macOS stores, disallow brew.sh, disallow Android Dev SDK installation, disallow Emulators, Windows and Linux install will stop working anyway...

I‘ll love it...

Apple users always comes up with iOS is more secure etc. This does not help, because your data is synced over to the „highly unsecured„ macOS. The only solution is to jail macOS, too. Of course just to keep all secured....

Cheers - I would laugh my ass off... and if they win, this will happen... just a matter of time...
 
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They just want to use all of Apple's services, products, and stores for free, without limitation and on their own terms. Um, that's not how the real world works. If they want to have their own rules, go have your own store.
They can't Apple uses their monopoly power over iOS to block the installation of other stores.
 
Is this about EPIC maximizing profits or Chinese government defending their intelligence reach?

Fortnight campaign is well planned and coordinated. How much this is decision by Tencent (largest owner of EPIC and one being targeted by Trump for their WeChat) and how much it is really EPIC management calculating that an antitrust lawsuit will eventually help them get more profit from Apple store?

Does it go higher up than Tencent: Is this strategy really decided by Chinese government to distract from case of using WeChat and TikTok to spy globally?

WeChat and TikTok clearly share data with Chinese government. This is expected, US companies are forced to do the same with US government. Does Tencent have enough control of EPIC to allow Chinese spy on platform EPIC software is installed?
If you think Epic is targeting Apple because of Chinese investment, then you don't know the history of Tim Sweeney, he has always been a huge critic of closed platforms like Windows 8 and hated the exact 30% developer tax in Steam so much he made Epic Games Launcher. This whole situation is an in character Tim Sweeney move. It's also just good timing considering everything else Apple has done lately.
 
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If you think Epic is targeting Apple because of Chinese investment, then you don't know the history of Tim Sweeney, he has always been a huge critic of closed platforms like Windows 8 and hated the exact 30% developer tax in Steam so much he made Epic Games Launcher. This whole situation is an in character Tim Sweeney move. It's also just good timing considering everything else Apple has done lately.
Yeah, he's a *huge* opponent of closed systems...and in order to effect his vision of open platforms he pays studios and coerces devs to lock them onto EGS then prevents "cross-play" between EGS and everyone else...yeah, that.
 
I originally thought apple was in the wrong here, but as I thought about it I realized the scenario. Apple is providing a space & clientele for these businesses. Spotify and Epic want to be able to put their services in this space without paying a lease. It's like a masseuse going into a resort and saying "I'm going to do massages for your resort guests in your lobby that people will pay for, but you don't get anything for it."
Exactly, and there are only 2 resorts on earth and everybody has to live in one of them. Don't forget that small detail. Over 50% of Americans live in one of those resorts. You can dance around legal definitions of monopoly all you want, but there is clearly something wrong with their level of control. They block game streaming, they tax all developers, they make special deals with billion dollar companies, and it's wrong.
 
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If Apple win this fight, I hope they become really greedy evil, and jail mac users into their new ARM macOS platform just like iOS. Disallow thirdparty software bundles, disallow thirdparty macOS stores, disallow brew.sh, disallow Android Dev SDK installation, disallow Emulators, Windows and Linux install will stop working anyway...

I‘ll love it...

Apple users always comes up with iOS is more secure etc. This does not help, because your data is synced over to the „highly unsecured„ macOS. The only solution is to jail macOS, too. Of course just to keep all secured....

Cheers - I would laugh my ass off... and if they win, this will happen... just a matter of time...
So you hate people who buy Apple products so you want bad things to happen to them... What you don't understand is not everyone likes and dislikes what you do. That's an almost impossible concept for some people to grasp. If they think vanilla ice cream tastes horrible then no one should like it ever... Period.
 
I think we are using different App Stores, should I return my iPhone?

Perhaps you haven't seen some of the garbage people put on Android phones. Or read about the malware.
I can't imagine they protect user data like Apple has been either.

The analogy isn't that far off. But the devil is in the detail.


1. There's lots, lots of places where you can sell your street food. On the other hand, there's a very limited number of societally relevant "malls", i.e. places where you can sell mobile apps: The App Store, the Play Store, maybe two or three smartphone maker stores, like the Galaxy Store. And Apple is one of the biggest ones.


2. Mobile apps play an increasing role in people's everyday lives. Public, governmental and essential services are slowly but increasingly delivered in the form of mobile apps:
- public transport information, timetables and ticket sales, demand responsive transport, ride-sharing
- mandatory contract tracing (Singapore SafeEntry)
- online banking and banking authentication apps
- student ID solutions
- messenger apps: these have become essential tools for social communication for many, especially young people

Point being: A smartphone and apps running on it are increasingly becoming an essential part of people's lives. And there's only a small number of relevant platforms in the marketplace. That's why society might want to regulate that playing field - rather than indifferently proclaiming these platform operators should do as they please. Just as government does regulate other monopolies, duopolies or markets providing essential goods and services.


3. Who says EPIC hasn't paid the rent? Or what makes you sure they haven't? I am pretty sure they (just like other, smaller developers) have paid for their Apple developer program account and access to publish their apps on the App store - the equivalent of their place in the mall.

Keeping with this analogy: Sure, there are percentage rents that make some businesses in malls pay a share of their revenues. Does that amount to the 30% that Apple is asking? Doesn't seem so. I googled it, and percentage leases are typically around 7%.


The difficulty with the analogy is because most of these apps are subscriptions not one-off purchases. Otherwise there would be no argument because the business model would be exactly like a brick and mortar store who would normally expect to make 30% or so from selling an app in a box off a shelf.
What is being overlooked is that there is also considerably more in the way of updates and maintenance going on these days, even with consoles than when the brick and mortar software distribution model was king.
The PS 1 & 2 and equivalent Xboxes you just bought off a shelf and plugged in and never really updated again. Thats not the case with current offerings and never has been with the iPhone and iPad.

Apple is definitely making much more from software than stores used to but then so are the developers. Apple has created a market that is compelling on a number of levels. Its safe, secure, family friendly, easy and convenient, you can easily talk to human beings on the phone if you need to, you are considerably safer from malware and as a result of all this work (plus their usual focus on UI design and attention to detail and quality) iOS users are more likely to spend significantly more money than other phone users. So Epic can simply choose to ignore Apple if they want, but they don't want. Apple isn't excluding them. They are simply complaining that they don't like Apple's pricing and/or conditions.

The thing is, I'd like to drive on the roads as fast as I want and park where I like without paying. I can't do that for various reasons, some of which are related to safety (and by extension the quality of the driving experience) but others like parking fees and speeding fines are clearly geared towards a monopoly making cash. And there are no alternate roads to use.

Its not really a monopoly, its just bitter Android users making it out to be one. It comes down to whether or not Apple's rules are fair since Google charges the same commission. Google arguably does less for their 30% than Apple does.
 
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Exactly, and there are only 2 resorts on earth and everybody has to live in one of them. Don't forget that small detail. Over 50% of Americans live in one of those resorts. You can dance around legal definitions of monopoly all you want, but there is clearly something wrong with their level of control. They block game streaming, they tax all developers, they make special deals with billion dollar companies, and it's wrong.

I would argue that control (iOS) vs lack of control (android) is in itself a meaningful choice for consumers, especially for less tech-savvy users who prefer their smartphones to work like appliances and less like computers (replete with all the problems that come with an open platform).

This has nothing to do with basic human rights or freedom or whatever amendment you plead, but about recognising that your user base have needs, and how Apple has chosen to go about meeting those needs to as so provide its users with a great user experience.

People keep arguing that Apple needs to open up and make itself more like android, without seemingly realising that many people choose apple devices precisely because it is nothing like android, and that extends to the locked-down manner in which the iOS App Store is run. To them, making iOS more like android isn’t giving them more of what they want, but instead saddling them with more problems that they need to contend with.

I think this is one area where the more tech-savvy online community often comes across as being non-emphatic to their less tech-savvy peers. That in their desire to make the iphone more PC-like for them (just so they can torrent or run Stadia or some other benefit specific to themselves), they also risk exposing the rest of the user base to issues that were never issues on iOS, precisely because of the way it was run from the very start, and their response typically boils down to “It’s not a problem for me, live with it”.
 
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Would you like to be able to buy from just one grocery store? To study in the only university with the only careers they offer? Would you like to watch the tv stations the only cable operator allow?

You lack of awareness and experience big time. If you give the control to just one entity, that entity will eliminate competitors with better proposals/ innovation.

Again... you went to the university, you paid your university and now the university (based on your mentality) can come and charge you from te money you are making in your career because "they created the ecosystem".
University in Germany is free, they tried to build a paywall like in US, but citizens protested, voted and won. Education shall always be free.
 
I would argue that control (iOS) vs lack of control (android) is in itself a meaningful choice for consumers, especially for less tech-savvy users who prefer their smartphones to work like appliances and less like computers (replete with all the problems that come with an open platform).

This has nothing to do with basic human rights or freedom or whatever amendment you plead, but about recognising that your user base have needs, and how Apple has chosen to go about meeting those needs to as so provide its users with a great user experience.

People keep arguing that Apple needs to open up and make itself more like android, without seemingly realising that many people choose apple devices precisely because it is nothing like android, and that extends to the locked-down manner in which the iOS App Store is run. To them, making iOS more like android isn’t giving them more of what they want, but instead saddling them with more problems that they need to contend with.

I think this is one area where the more tech-savvy online community often comes across as being non-emphatic to their less tech-savvy peers. That in their desire to make the iphone more PC-like for them (just so they can torrent or run Stadia or some other benefit specific to themselves), they also risk exposing the rest of the user base to issues that were never issues on iOS, precisely because of the way it was run from the very start, and their response typically boils down to “It’s not a problem for me, live with it”.

I don't disagree with your sentiment.
However the problem with what you are saying is Apple are not honest about their reasons.
Apple are allowing or not allowing things due to their ability to make money, just as much as saying they are only doing it to protect the users.
Imagine two priests. One who wishes you to pray and that's good for you, and that's their only wish for you.
The other says the same, but wants you to pray at their church, so they can sell you some items when you are there.

We all know Apple are not wanting to allow game streaming services (like they allow music/movie streaming services) and they want to protect their own gaming product and selling iOS Games.
They know is their consumers have a better experience as they can play much better games via streaming, then there is a good chance Apple will lose sales of their games service and some app store sales.

This is Apples problem, they try and make out the reason is one thing, whilst we all know it's financial for them.

It's a shame, and I don't blame them, but when you are basically lying to customers so you can make money it's hard when you can see it happening.

Like saying BIG phones are stupid, buy our small phone today. Whilst at the same time, back, behind doors they are working on BIG phone they will be launching next year.

Right now Apple don't want to allow game streaming as it will lose them some money and they don't have any competing product.
 
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They can't Apple uses their monopoly power over iOS to block the installation of other stores.

In this case 'build your own store' means research, design, build, market, support and maintain your own operating system and fleet of devices. Its a massive undertaking that takes a lot of time and costs a huge amount of money to build and then keep running. Why do people imagine a private enterprise would (or should) do this for free?



If you think Epic is targeting Apple because of Chinese investment, then you don't know the history of Tim Sweeney. It's also just good timing considering everything else Apple has done lately.


Given his Chinese backers and Trump's attempts to kick them out of not just the US but all US-owned app stores, I'd say the timing was utterly bizarre.


I think this is one area where the more tech-savvy online community often comes across as being non-emphatic to their less tech-savvy peers. That in their desire to make the iphone more PC-like for them (just so they can torrent or run Stadia or some other benefit specific to themselves), they also risk exposing the rest of the user base to issues that were never issues on iOS, precisely because of the way it was run from the very start, and their response typically boils down to “It’s not a problem for me, live with it”.

Most users (tech savvy or otherwise) do not consider their fellow users when it comes to the items and services they buy and use. Something bugs them, they assume it should bug everyone. Humans are incredibly myopic in a great many circumstances.
A lot of the moaning Android fanboys are motivated by selfishness and jealousy and they don't think things through. I'd love to present the illusion of fairness by assuming the same is true the other way but I'm not sure it is. Apple's gear is beautiful and a pleasure to use more often than not (way more often than Android) but its expensive. Thats what really bugs them. Most of the "but its not open!" crowd have never installed a wallpaper pic from outside the Play store let alone rooted a device. Apple do have plenty of rich, entitled obnoxious idiot users of course but that's not really a relevant equivalent here because they aren't typically complaining about Android.



I don't disagree with your sentiment.
However the problem with what you are saying is Apple are not honest about their reasons.
Apple are allowing or not allowing things due to their ability to make money, just as much as saying they are only doing it to protect the users.
This is Apples problem, they try and make out the reason is one thing, whilst we all know it's financial for them.

Heres the thing: You're assuming that because one is true, the other cannot be. Apple is a privately owned corporation. Those exist to make money. Its not something they need to say, everyone knows and understands this and anyone who doesn't has no business having strong opinions about more complicated technical or economic or legal issues that crop up around it.
Everything they do is to make money. But Steve Jobs always wanted to change the world. Do you imagine he was lying when he said that? He had plenty of money when he died though nothing like most of his contemporary tech leaders. And he definitely has changed the world. Tim Cook I think has only just become a billionaire in the last week or so. Having overseen about a trillion bucks in value added to his company. How much are Gates, Musk, Bezos worth? Buffet has made more from Apple than Tim Cook (and Steve Jobs) ever have. Just in the last few months alone.
Apple takes stands on issues.

So yes, they charge 30% in order to make money from the store they built (and arguably invented the concept of). That runs on the (two) industry defining products they created. That borrow heavily from the tech they spent the previous 30 years researching, testing and refining. And a multimillion dollar international corporation who makes a hefty chunk of their income from targeting children with different guns and silly clown outfits wants to waltz in and rake in even more cash than they already are at zero cost?
Perhaps you imagine that Epic only make games because they love to see the joy on their gamers faces?

Imagine two priests. One who wishes you to pray and that's good for you, and that's their only wish for you.
The other says the same, but wants you to pray at their church, so they can sell you some items when you are there.

Interesting analogy given that prayer in reality does basically nothing for anyone. I guess it makes some people feel better but when they pray instead of rolling up their sleeves or opening their wallets to actually help others (thoughts and prayers), the net result is not a good one.
Plus all clergy are tasked with recruitment. Is it because they want to save your soul? Or do they need your bum on a seat in their church to save their job or as you say, boost their collection plates? (Lets not worry about the ones that want to molest your children or their superiors who want to cover it up for now)
How do you tell the ones motivated by selfless soul-saving from the ones who are just in it for themselves and/or the church/money?
(For the purposes of this discussion that last question is rhetorical but if you're interested, there are some clues to look out for that should help you identify the extreme cases. A private jet paid for by the "church" is a good indicator. Plus the mansion and the megachurch and the TV channel. All big red flags. Same for sports cars or any other flashy purchases. Christian clergy are supposed to eschew personal wealth strictly speaking. On the other end of the spectrum, I'd argue the ones knocking on your door trying to convert you when they know 99% of people resent them for it are the ones really trying to save your soul. Still horribly misguided of course and highly likely to be part of something more like a cult than a church - though who can really tell the difference these days - but theres a chance their hearts are in the right place. Unless they rolled up in a Bentley)


We all know Apple are not wanting to allow game streaming services (like they allow music/movie streaming services) and they want to protect their own gaming product and selling iOS Games.

This is like asking them to destroy their own business in order for another to make profit. One that hasn't done the work. You know when people go to Target wherever to look at something then go home and buy it from Amazon? Why would Apple choose that as their exclusive business model? Do you imagine that any developer is going to give Apple 30% of their iOS app revenue if they don't have to?


They know is their consumers have a better experience as they can play much better games via streaming, then there is a good chance Apple will lose sales of their games service and some app store sales.

In the immortal words of Bill Gates, "It doesn't have to be better, it just has to be good enough [so long as its cheaper]"

It's a shame, and I don't blame them, but when you are basically lying to customers so you can make money it's hard when you can see it happening.

They aren't lying though. Curating the app store makes things easier, safer, more convenient for end users. You can debate the extent to which each of those is true but they are all true.Since many of those end users are businesses, these things are even more important. It saves them time (which is money), for their users not having to source apps from obscure developer websites (or from having to build or buy in house distribution for the apps they use), support costs if they have issues, set up time and many other details that people who don't run a business never even think of (Trust me, there are many of these). Don't forget the instances of malware found in app on the Play Store. The facial recognition that could be fooled by a photo (This is a big ******* deal if you're a defence contractor, government agency or just a company with valuable proprietary data and unscrupulous competitors)

Apple's platform attracts different users to Android. For one they tend to spend more money. Is that because they have more (maybe from the time they save not fannying around with their phones)? Or is it because they feel safer spending it?

Something else most people are probably overlooking - You know those stories where a child gets hold of a phone and racks up a few grand worth of in-app purchases? Who do you imagine the parents call about that? Its not Epic Games. Not first anyway.
When Apple doesn't refund them (Even though most of time the parents gave the kid the unlocked phone and lied about it) they get bad press. That wouldn't change if they weren't making their 30%, they'd still be the infinitely rich cash cow expected to foot the bill. Can you even phone the Google Play store? I'd be surprised. Same for Epic.

Like saying BIG phones are stupid, buy our small phone today. Whilst at the same time, back, behind doors they are working on BIG phone they will be launching next year.

Apple sometimes changes their mind. This can happen over time. People used to ask them to build tablets years before iPad. But they time wasn't right, the tech wasn't ready. Thats why the Windows ones sucked so bad.
Apple is right that big phones are stupid by the way, they are stupid. Get an iPad.
But people really wanted them so Apple caved in. I recall Samsung mocking Apple for removing the headphone jack to make iPhones waterproof when the Samsung's had been for years even with the jack. Except the Samsung's weren't waterproof, they failed to meet the standards they were supposedly certified to quite consistently (sounds like lying to your customers). Hows that headphone jack looking on the Galaxy nowadays?

Right now Apple don't want to allow game streaming as it will lose them some money and they don't have any competing product.

They have Apple Arcade.
Do you think Xbox Live should be allowed on Playstation? Or PSN on Xbox? They have similar x86 SoCs built by AMD, maybe they ought to be able to play each other's games in the interest of openness?
 
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