Star Trek: Alpha to Delta Quadrants & Everything In Between

[BigMcGuire]

I was watching some DS9 YTs, and that series unlike all of the other star trek series was a slow burn, it needed time to find its footing.

With that said, what are folks opinions on how the show evolved. I'm thinking specifically of how Dr. Bashir was transformed into a gifted young doctor to a genetically enhanced human who can now analyze military situations beyond that of a mere mortal, he then got roped into section 31 side quest.

When I was a kid, TNG was what I thought was the best Trek. Now that I'm older, DS9 is by far my most favorite - the character development in the confines of the classic Roddenberry universe were amazing. O'brien, Kira, Worf, Dax.. Bashier had especially great character development as you mentioned - amazing to see them grow over the episodes. Then Garak, Quark, GulDukat ... absolutely AMAZING performances. Even Weyoun was extremely well done. Wasn't a big fan of Odo but that's personal preference, he did good. 😛 The war with the dominion was very well done.

I now need to find a medium to re-watch these now that I'm in my 40s. I'm not paying Paramount+.

 

[maflynn]

Then Garak, Quark, GulDukat

Those three are the reason why the series succeeded. Garak was supposed to be just a one episode charachter, but Andrew Robinson absolutely killed it, in his portray of a duplicitous tailor

I was disappointed in how the end game occurred with GulDukat. I think he deserved better.

 

[wonderings]

I was watching some DS9 YTs, and that series unlike all of the other star trek series was a slow burn, it needed time to find its footing.

With that said, what are folks opinions on how the show evolved. I'm thinking specifically of how Dr. Bashir was transformed into a gifted young doctor to a genetically enhanced human who can now analyze military situations beyond that of a mere mortal, he then got roped into section 31 side quest.

I found I really disliked the character once he started holding these really high moral values. I did not buy it and seemed way too altruistic to be believable. I do agree it was a slow burn but thought it had the most potential outside of Voyager for a good story. I loved the whole Cardassian / Bajoran conflict. Had very much WW2 vibes to it, Nazi Germany and the Jews. One cold hearted and willing to wipe out a race of people for the good of the country and the other a somewhat misunderstood people group with strong religious values and culture. Like all Star Trek though I think poor character development or characters that did not feel 3 dimensional is always the issue. I did not care much for the side plots like Bashir, or even Sisko being the emissary. It was just not needed if they had developed and fleshed out a believable conflict between these 2 groups. Its failures was probably more just because of the time period it came out and how shows are all episodic.

 

[maflynn]

I did not care much for the side plots like Bashir, or even Sisko being the emissary

Yeah, I wasn't a big fan of the section 31 side quest, and thankfully they largely didn't delve too deep into the emissary stuff, though to wrap up the series they did

 

[Mousse]

The only issue I had with DS9 was Sisko, a mere Captain, was pretty much the tactical leader of the Federation forces in the Dominion War. Way above his pay grade. Sure Vice Admiral Ross rubberstamped things, but still. Even Ross is taking on duties above his paygrade. What is Starfleet Commander doing? They could at least promote him to Admiral so he could stand on equal footing with General Martok.

The reason is obvious Hollywood, but there was no in universe reason. It makes no sense.

On a side note: I loved that the actor who played Admiral Cartwright played Sisko's dad.🤗

 

[Bug-Creator]

The only issue I had with DS9 was Sisko, a mere Captain, was pretty much the tactical leader of the Federation forces in the Dominion War. Way above his pay grade.

He had the knowledge of the region, the respect of all the major players allied or foe and he was in command of the outpost that was the hub to it all.

Promoting him beyond Captain would have changed nothing (and may have been the highest rank suited for a station commander).

What else could "HollyWood" have done here? Add more characters that play a small role every 10th episode? Make Sisko a 60star Admiral that somehow still does day to day routine while serving on the frontlines?

 

[CWallace]

Based on dialogue and costuming, "Fleet Admiral" was a title, not a rank and the officers who held that title were Vice Admirals (three pips in the box). Examples of this include Alynna Nechayev, who was called "fleet admiral" by Picard in episode dialogue, but I believe was always shown as being a Vice Admiral in terms of her costuming.

Also, of all the Federation fronts in the War up to "Sacrifice of Angels", the Wormhole was arguably the most secure. So if there were full four-pip full Admirals (and even five-pip Fleet Admirals) commanding other fleets, having William Ross being in command of a fleet at Starbase 375 while holding the rank of Vice Admiral tracks with this.

As for Sisko's role, I see him as part of Ross' General Staff in addition to being the CO of Deep Space Nine and the USS Defiant. So he was part of the inner core of officers who supported Admiral Ross. Yes, he arguably should have been a Commodore if not a Rear Admiral (I could see the Rear Admirals with Ross when Sisko pitches "Operation Return" also being part of his general staff), but @Bug-Creator noted, Sisko knew the battle area better than any other field grade officer in the fleet.

It is also possible that Sisko may have only been commanding a small portion of the battle in "Sacrifice of Angels". He is seen giving orders to fighters and destroyers, but perhaps not to the Galaxy Wings (which likely were task forces under the command of those Captains if not actual Flag Officers who were on board - just as a Carrier Task Force has a Rear Admiral to command the overall task force).

 

[Non-Euclidean]

The only issue I had with DS9 was Sisko, a mere Captain, was pretty much the tactical leader of the Federation forces in the Dominion War. Way above his pay grade. Sure Vice Admiral Ross rubberstamped things, but still. Even Ross is taking on duties above his paygrade. What is Starfleet Commander doing? They could at least promote him to Admiral so he could stand on equal footing with General Martok.

The reason is obvious Hollywood, but there was no in universe reason. It makes no sense.

On a side note: I loved that the actor who played Admiral Cartwright played Sisko's dad.🤗

I gotta WTF moment last year when i recognized him when i finally saw To Kill a Mockingbird. Followed by another WTF moment at the end when i saw a very young Robert Duvall.

 

[ClaraStahlbaum]

I found I really disliked the character once he started holding these really high moral values. I did not buy it and seemed way too altruistic to be believable. I do agree it was a slow burn but thought it had the most potential outside of Voyager for a good story. I loved the whole Cardassian / Bajoran conflict. Had very much WW2 vibes to it, Nazi Germany and the Jews. One cold hearted and willing to wipe out a race of people for the good of the country and the other a somewhat misunderstood people group with strong religious values and culture. Like all Star Trek though I think poor character development or characters that did not feel 3 dimensional is always the issue. I did not care much for the side plots like Bashir, or even Sisko being the emissary. It was just not needed if they had developed and fleshed out a believable conflict between these 2 groups. Its failures was probably more just because of the time period it came out and how shows are all episodic.

DS9 was a very good show. I always liked the Cardassians and how complex of a race they were. They were indeed, a military dictatorship however their origins explain the reason why they became that way and ultimately how they lose. The Cardassians ended up losing hard in the end of the show, and were ultimately victims of the Dominion like everyone else.

 

[bradl]

A lot of what helped DS9 find its footing was bringing Worf onto the show. not only did that help extend the role of the Klingons throughout the entire series, but also the entire Next Generation arc. Worf made O'Reilly and the Gowron eyes relevant again. It could be said that without Worf and the the acceptance he had by being the only Klingon (at the time) in Starfleet, Nog would not have made it into Starfleet.

No Worf = no B'Elanna Torres or Echeb in Starfleet.

Speaking of Nog, I still say that to this day, that Worthwhile scene between him and Sisko has to be the best scene out of anything Star Trek: TOS, TAS, TNG, DS9, VOY ENT, SFA, movies, ST:Online, or otherwise, canon or not. Every single reason Sisko brought up for why he (a Ferengi) wouldn't be accepted into Starfleet Nog completely shot down. To see him grow from a sniveling, conniving kid wannabe conman to a proud and stoic Starfleet officer is something you wouldn't have seen in any of the stories before or after it.

BL.

 

[Mousse]

Speaking of Nog, I still say that to this day, that Worthwhile scene between him and Sisko has to be the best scene out of anything Star Trek: TOS, TAS, TNG, DS9, VOY ENT, SFA, movies, ST:Online, or otherwise, canon or not. Every single reason Sisko brought up for why he (a Ferengi) wouldn't be accepted into Starfleet Nog completely shot down.

My respect for Nog rose exponentially after that scene. It was a "hell yeah!" moment when Captain Nog commanded the Defiant in The Visitor.😎

Star Trek is full of great scenes like that. Quark calling out the Federation's hypocrisy in The Jem'Hadar. Picard's "With the first link, the chain is forged" spiel. Nog's plead with Sisko to join Star Fleet. Picard's line must be drawn rant in First Contact. Sisko's venting about the Maquis. "It's easy to be a saint in paradise." Too true. You could list hundreds great speeches and quotes that came from Star Trek.🤓

It's impossible for me to chose a favorite scene from Star Trek. I have a 100 favorite.🥰

 

[Non-Euclidean]

Yeah, I wasn't a big fan of the section 31 side quest, and thankfully they largely didn't delve too deep into the emissary stuff, though to wrap up the series they did

One of the "emissary" episodes I find a personal favorite. The lost ancient Bajoran city that Sisko becomes obsessed with and locates.

 

[Non-Euclidean]

Those three are the reason why the series succeeded. Garak was supposed to be just a one episode charachter, but Andrew Robinson absolutely killed it, in his portray of a duplicitous tailor

I was disappointed in how the end game occurred with GulDukat. I think he deserved better.

I am going to disagree.

When Gul Dukat linked up with zealot religous lady, became Bajoran and was interacting with "evil spirits", I thought the show jumped the shark.

 

[wordsworth]

I thought that DS9 was a brilliant series at the time and I really looked forward to each weekly episode.

I now look forward to making my way through the boxed set.

I don’t recall watching any episode and concluding that it had jumped the shark but we’ll see how it stands up when I revisit. (I’m still watching later episodes of Voyager and they’re all hugely entertaining.)

I continue to believe that the strengths of these older Star Trek worlds come significantly from the characterisation and ensemble acting, based on strong scripts. We could use a lot more of that these days.

I do recall that DS9 had some truly tremendous episodes that filled me with appreciation.

 

[Cave Man]

Well I just binged Strange New Worlds. Skipped through two-thirds of the episodes because they were so bad. Zombies, demons, mind melds, Spockirk, planetary destruction, miracles - just cancel it already. Truly awful series.

 

[wordsworth]

Well I just binged Strange New Worlds. Skipped through two-thirds of the episodes because they were so bad. Zombies, demons, mind melds, planetary destruction, miracles - just cancel it already. Truly awful series.

I was under the impression that SNW was the better if not best of a poor bunch; Discovery and Picard were both very disappointing – the episodes I managed to get through, that is.

It can’t be beyond "the right people" to match today the best qualities of Star Trek from yesteryear, surely? Get real seasoned science fiction writers to shape the plots and develop the characters, and then tweak as the network sees fit but without spoiling anything? An audience is there for that, right?

I watched The Loop on Amazon and was delighted by some of its episodes.

 

[Cave Man]

I remember when Enterprise was considered the worst (but I liked it and it ended too soon, IMO). But it's been supplanted by every series since then.

 

[Mousse]

I remember when Enterprise was considered the worst (but I liked it and it ended too soon, IMO). But it's been supplanted by every series since then.

It got better with the Suliban/Temporal Cold War arc.

I'm guessing the birth of the Federation was always how it was going to end. I liked that.🤗 But, as you wrote, it ended too soon. Earth being one of the founding member makes no sense while it's still a protectorate of Vulcan. It's like having Puerto Rico as a permanent member of the UN Security Council. They needed another 2 seasons to build Earth up as an equal of the Vulcans and Andorians--with the help of Temporal Agents under Wesley Crusher's command.😉

 

[wonderings]

It got better with the Suliban/Temporal Cold War arc.

I'm guessing the birth of the Federation was always how it was going to end. I liked that.🤗 But, as you wrote, it ended too soon. Earth being one of the founding member makes no sense while it's still a protectorate of Vulcan. It's like having Puerto Rico as a permanent member of the UN Security Council. They needed another 2 seasons to build Earth up as an equal of the Vulcans and Andorians--with the help of Temporal Agents under Wesley Crusher's command.😉

I find it best to not think too much about Star Trek and having things make sense. I love the overall concept of Star Trek but think they have never actually delivered on a universe that feels believable and characters who are barely 2 dimensional. There are a few standouts of course, but all in all it is very mediocre.

 

[Mitthrawnuruodo]

“It’d be fun to see her as captain for a while…” Jeri Ryan talks Seven of Nine, Star Trek and Picard

At the 2nd edition of Italian Global Series, Jeri Ryan reflects on Seven of Nine’s journey from Voyager newcomer to Picard’s Enterprise captain, and why this iconic character still matters today.

www.scifinow.co.uk

 

[Bug-Creator]

Earth being one of the founding member makes no sense while it's still a protectorate of Vulcan.

At least when it came to the tech Earth had done quite some catching up throughout the series and were even on par with some of the other races portrayed as founding members.

They were also ones pushing for the whole thing.

It's like having Puerto Rico as a permanent member of the UN Security Council.

Republic Of China (aka Taiwan) was a UN veto power for decades so stringing up an alternative history where mainland America ends up being Mao's China and Puerto Rico getting the US seat isn't that absurd 🤠

 

[CWallace]

They needed another 2 seasons to build Earth up as an equal of the Vulcans and Andorians--with the help of Temporal Agents under Wesley Crusher's command.😉

They were lucky to get a fourth season. Paramount wanted to walk away after the second season, but fan activism did for the show what they had done for TOS and secured a third season. But when the changes they forced in the third season did not materially move the needle in terms of viewership, everyone assumed they would kill the show. However, they made a deal with Berman and Braga that if they stepped aside as the active show runners for Manny Coto, they would give it a fourth season - and only a fourth season. Hence why even though the fourth season was generally well-received at the time (and has only improved in stature over time), that was it.