Steve Jobs Comments on Apple's Java Discontinuation

[flottenheimer]

I just checked the Oracle website. Their latest announcement (September 20, 2010) regarding Java, under the headline "Oracle Outlines Plans for Java Platform" states that:

"... Oracle is advancing the Java platform and optimizing it for new application models and hardware ..."

The press-release doesn't mention OS X. But it sure could be a part of the road map. Read the entire Oracle press-release here:
http://www.oracle.com/us/corporate/press/173712

 

[CFreymarc]

Well hopefully, this will help quell the fears that people were having in the other thread. While there is no immediate solution, there wasn't he typical condemnation that Jobs dishes out when he has a vendetta against a technology.

I think/hope that Oracle is going to step up and offer it for MacOS X.

Steve knows a frontal assault as he did with Flash will not work here. This one is going to be more underground. By the time Lion is out, Java is no longer Apple's problem.

 

[Rodimus Prime]

Oracle, this is time to shine on the Mac. Please do't screw it up like Adobe did; otherwise, well the consequences for Adobe now are clear.

Oracle could screw it up and all it would do is make Apple even more irreverent in the business and corporate world. A lot of server apps are writen in Java. Java Devs are going to keep working in Java and all they will do is say buy to OSX.

Also is has been pointed out flash is very little of Abobe business so really not going to hurt them well. Abobe still can point a lot of the problems with flash on OSX right back at Apple.

 

[cult hero]

First Apple tossed Carbon aside, now tossing Java aside. We're left with Cocoa, the basis of iOS apps. I'll bet when more Lion details leak, we find out that iOS and OS X will just be check boxes in the "target" field, just like when they added Intel. You'll end up without a separate development platform, just one version of Xcode, with the checkboxes for OS X, iPhone, and iPad. (PPC will be gone, so they won't bother with OS X-PPC and OS X-Intel.)

Cocoa is the blessed API and it was before iOS was released. Java has been mostly irrelevant on the Mac for sometime and Apple's craptastic releases have been behind the curve. All this signals is that Apple is finally putting Java out of its misery and handing it off to someone else who will (hopefully) do a better job.

When OS X launched, there was a lot of buzz about Java applications with the whole "write once, run anywhere." This is before we all realized it was "write once, debug everywhere." The need and the strategy for Java, particularly in the application space, was aborted a long time ago.

As for the checkbox in Xcode, it's pretty clear that you haven't coded applications for either iOS or OS X. The differences aren't as simple as a checkbox. Let me repeat, for the umpteenth time, iOS and OS X are NOT converging. Are they going to have shared core libraries? Yes. Are they going to have ideas pass between one another? Yes. Are there going to be similarities? Yes.

Are they going to become one OS? No. Why? Because it makes absolutely, positively NO SENSE. I'm so looking forward to seeing 50% of the comments on this site degenerate into, "OS X IS DEAD! NETCRAFT CONFIRMS IT! iOS is taking over!" Every time any conspiracy theorist nutjob around here notices some similarity between the two.

Oh noes! Look at the Windows 7 phone! Microsoft is abandoning teh PCS!

 

[reden]

Steve and Larry are friends. Mr. Ellison used to be on Apple's board. If Larry has a forthcoming announcement to make about control (and something tells me that Larry likes control) of Java technology on the Mac, Steve very likely doesn't want to steal Larry's limelight.

Can anyone report of the frequency of MacBook sightings in the coffee shops near Marine/Oracle-World?

Exactly, this practically puts both companies in bed together, what's the big deal.

 

[waloshin]

That's reasonable but hopefully Apple will give Oracle the source code to all their work on Java so far. Java is currently the most important and widely used modern language so it needs to be well-supported. In fact, Apple should encourage Java's use because it means that a program which may have been Windows only will now run on OS X too.

Still, this doesn't answer why Java is BARRED FROM THE APP STORE (both iOS and OS X). I've used many great Java programs that are fast and well-integrated into OS X. Poker Copilot comes to mind.

OS X is Unix like so I am sure Oracle won't have any trouble at all.

 

[TuffLuffJimmy]

OS X is Unix like so I am sure Oracle won't have any trouble at all.

Minor correction: OS X is Unix compliant, not just Unix-like. It is Unix.

 

[Don Kosak]

It makes much more sense to have Sun/Oracle build their new JVM and own the port process to all major platforms (PC, Mac, Linux...). We'll end up with a better overall platform for Java development that way.

On the downside, Oracle may have different "ideas" about Java than Sun did. Witness the Oracle/Google Android issues for a taste of what that may end up like.

From an Apple developer standpoint, I was a little surprised to see Java Apps excluded from the Mac App Store. (Just a little, not a lot...)

I'm really interested to see what things are like a decade from now with the sudden emergence of all of these App Stores. (iPhone, Android, Xbox, Wii, Chrome, Mac, and so on.)

There have been a lot of software bazaars in the past, but none of them lasted -- then again, none have been as big as the App Store either.

 

[codymac]

I worked for Oracle for 10 years, they couldn't give a toss about apple. I see no reason why they would bother with Java for the Mac, where is their income ?

Larry buys expensive yachts he is motivated by income

Ding! Witness the stellar job they've done supporting OSX so far.

 

[dcorby23]

OS X is Unix like so I am sure Oracle won't have any trouble at all.

Why compiling JVM itself on OS X is not a problem at all (it can be done with open source versions like OpenJDK/Soylatte), integrating it into usefull development environment like it is now with Apple-provided JVM is almost impossible task for Oracle, seeing their other stuff for OS X.

So this is just Apple dumping it's own customers, this time (Java) developers. Who's next - Photoshop professionals? FCP users?

Java pays my bills, iOS development brings me some pocket money. Without having useful Java, Mac won't be my next computer. That also means no Xcode, so I will have to look for making pocket money elsewhere, not making iOS apps. Too bad. Bye Apple/Next, it was nice 20 years.

 

[BC2009]

Truth be told, Oracle does not produce Java Runtime Engines and SDKs for all platforms -- they only do it for the most popular platforms and their own (e.g.: Windows, Linux, and Solaris).

IBM produces the AIX Java and zOS Java and HP produces the HP-UX Java. I'm sure there are several other UNIX flavors out there that the UNIX vendor produces the Java Runtime Engine and SDK for.

Usually these are all done through a licensing agreement with Sun (now Oracle) to use some of their code base and then pair it with home-grown code for that target platform. It makes it difficult to release at the same time as Oracle since you have to wait for their release to be so far along before you can start your own -- and that's assuming you are prepared to release when they are ready and you can sync your schedules.

However, now that Mac OSX represents 20% of the desktop space, perhaps Apple feels they are mainstream enough to warrant Oracle releasing for Mac OSX and not just for Linux and Windows (and of course Solaris).

Historically Microsoft licensed Java, released their own Java Runtime Engine, but customized it to the point that they broke the license agreement and got sued. They backed off with their J++ rebranding of the "Microsoft VM", eventually dumping both Java and J++ to go with .Net.

Since then Sun has always released the latest Java on Windows first, and then following up with Solaris. They eventually added Linux after the Black-Down team produced a Linux JRE.

 

[japasneezemonk]

Exactly, this practically puts both companies in bed together, what's the big deal.

I agree, if Larry and Steve are good friends then I'm sure some deal has been worked out by now.

 

[knightlie]

Who cares about damn java?????? Better say something about iWeb, Steve!!!!!!!

People who are smarter than you.


I agree with this, Java is Oracle's thing. I never really understood Apple developing their own VM anyway, for exactly the reason Jobs gives. I bet it's quite a drain on resources too.

Let Oracle or the community develop it.

 

[cheradenine]

2 problems

There's 2 problems with this.

1) Business customers will not get any comfort from "this might not be the best way to do it". What they want is certainty that they can spend money on pro-level mac hardware for their software development teams and it's not a wasted investment. Until there is certainty them - for sure - those purchases will be on hold.

2) There's this assumption that because OS X is bigger now, Oracle will jump in and support it directly. Ain't neccesarily so. Consider: Java is mostly prevalent in the server space - and Oracle has a big linux investment, so JVM on linux makes sense. By covering that and Windows, they give a huge set of platform coverage for the development side. Now, consider - if Oracle don't support OS X - how much money are they going to loose? I'd say 0. It is *far* more likely that enterprises will change their hardware platform away from the Mac than they suddenly stop writing Java. Why would oracle spend time and money on a port when all they need to do is wait; Java users have to have a supported development environment so they're forced back to Windows / Linux.

Java application haters just don't get it. A huge amount of software development targets Java, only a tiny fraction of it is used by consumers. Those guys need computers, they liked OS X because it's got good java support, UNIX, and a nice GUI. There's been a huge uptick in macbook toting IT people, who then were a great ready audience for writing iPhone apps because they had the kit. They don't care what the app store rules are, they don't even care if Java is an OS component or a separate download; or even who supplies it - just the assurance that it is there and supported. An no, some shonky Soylatte build on X11 isn't going to cut it.

Also, you may be surprised what consumer stuff IS java. Flash builder; eclipse IDE. Moneydance personal finance; Java. PS3 media server; Java. Many language development environments are eclipse, and therefore java, based.

No JVM = No OS X = No enterprise apple sales.

 

[dieselm]

It wouldn't be smart for apple to get into a licensing agreement with sun. To the extent that "must-have" or market critical software which is developed for the Mac in that circumstance, Steve would be opening up Apple to a money extraction.

Better to have Oracle do the release and the support. If Mac stops being supported, they catch all the flak. And if no one ever develops an amazing app in Java that a large proportion of Apple consumer users must rely on, that's all the better.

This is the better model. Oracle gets pressured to support Java by Apple developers, and critical/essential apps for Mac consumer users never get written Java (ie. Oracle doesn't gain leverage over the Mac platform.)

No more dev cost or PR headache, devs can still get supported. With Sun, it was worth bearing some of the risk. Larry Ellison never met a company he didn't squeeze hard, so this is probably the smartest path.

 

[bryanck]

Hopefully there is some follow-up news from Oracle or Apple soon confirming there will be a JDK available for Mac OS X. This whole announcement of Java being deprecated was pretty unsettling. I can't recommend Macs as a Java development machine anymore, or for use in an enterprise for that matter, unless this is seriously cleared up. Does Apple really think it can survive without an OS for use by developers?

 

[agkm800]

Being a version behind isn't really a bad thing. He should just look at it like everyone else is testing updates in the real world.

New unknown security bugs could be exploited while OS X wouldn't be affected because it would be on a previous build.

Perhaps, Jobs is just making an excuse. Perhaps, he sees JAVA the same way he sees FLASH.

 

[John.B]

There's 2 problems with this.

1) Business customers will not get any comfort from "this might not be the best way to do it". What they want is certainty that they can spend money on pro-level mac hardware for their software development teams and it's not a wasted investment. Until there is certainty them - for sure - those purchases will be on hold.

2) There's this assumption that because OS X is bigger now, Oracle will jump in and support it directly. Ain't neccesarily so. Consider: Java is mostly prevalent in the server space - and Oracle has a big linux investment, so JVM on linux makes sense. By covering that and Windows, they give a huge set of platform coverage for the development side. Now, consider - if Oracle don't support OS X - how much money are they going to loose? I'd say 0. It is *far* more likely that enterprises will change their hardware platform away from the Mac than they suddenly stop writing Java. Why would oracle spend time and money on a port when all they need to do is wait; Java users have to have a supported development environment so they're forced back to Windows / Linux.

Java application haters just don't get it. A huge amount of software development targets Java, only a tiny fraction of it is used by consumers. Those guys need computers, they liked OS X because it's got good java support, UNIX, and a nice GUI. There's been a huge uptick in macbook toting IT people, who then were a great ready audience for writing iPhone apps because they had the kit. They don't care what the app store rules are, they don't even care if Java is an OS component or a separate download; or even who supplies it - just the assurance that it is there and supported. An no, some shonky Soylatte build on X11 isn't going to cut it.

Also, you may be surprised what consumer stuff IS java. Flash builder; eclipse IDE. Moneydance personal finance; Java. PS3 media server; Java. Many language development environments are eclipse, and therefore java, based.

No JVM = No OS X = No enterprise apple sales.

Stop with the histrionics, already.

The JVM isn't going away for Snow Leopard, and it's not going away for the current version of Java. For the next version of Java, yes, the JVM is on Oracle.

Oracle already provides the JVM for Windows, Linux, and several UNIX variants. As does IBM where it suits them.

Anyone who has enterprise experience with this will be glad they don't have to wait for Apple to roll their own JVM anymore. I'm sure they'd prefer to get it directly from Oracle.

Finally, in the unlikely event Oracle doesn't pick up the slack, marketshare for Java as a "run anywhere" platform would rapidly begin to disintegrate. The pony-tailed wonder at Sun may not have figured that out, but it wouldn't be lost on someone like Larry Ellison.

FWIW, I couldn't delete Moneydance fast enough off of my Mac. Yuk. Would it kill them to hire someone with some design skills and talent?

Java pays my bills, iOS development brings me some pocket money. Without having useful Java, Mac won't be my next computer. That also means no Xcode, so I will have to look for making pocket money elsewhere, not making iOS apps. Too bad. Bye Apple/Next, it was nice 20 years.

And yet, you're still here... Strange...

 

[tatonka]

Being a version behind isn't really a bad thing. He should just look at it like everyone else is testing updates in the real world.

New unknown security bugs could be exploited while OS X wouldn't be affected because it would be on a previous build.

- YAY for not being on the bleeding edge

I think you got that wrong .. it exactly means the opposite, namely that bugs that are already fixed in the official release may still be open in Apples release and that has happend in the past.

I never understood why Apple had their own Java anyways .. I would like it to go into the official hands. For the sake of their users though, they could have communicated that with Oracle before deprecating it. Have a solution ready before you do the change.

T.

 

[batchtaster]

http://bugreport.sun.com/bugreport/submit_main.do

Perhaps, he sees JAVA the same way he sees FLASH.

Wow. People just love to throw that around randomly. "Since it's true of Flash, it must be true of every other decision Apple ever makes any time, ever, that I don't like." You know what? If Steve didn't like Java, or any of these other things people lay on his apparent Hit List, he would say so.

 

[mackiwi]

I thought Larry was a fan of Steve...? I remember him recently quoting the firing of Steve jobs by apple as one of the greatest corporate blunders of all time (I'm gonna let you finish...)

 

[Matt-M]

Who cares about damn java?????? Better say something about iWeb, Steve!!!!!!!

http://www.apple.com/ilife/iweb/

 

[Time Clock]

Maybe Jobs wants to transfer his Java developers to some other iDepartment so they can make more iToys!

 

[OllyW]

However, now that Mac OSX represents 20% of the desktop space...

Since when?

 

[throttlemeister]

Minor correction: OS X is Unix compliant, not just Unix-like. It is Unix.

Minor correction on your correction. It is UNIX, no Unix or unix and OS X is only compliant since 10.5 Leopard, en then only when running on Intel hardware. Older versions or those running on PPC are not.

Side-note: compliant versions of OS X are, together with Solaris and HP/UX, the only systems compliant with the latest UNIX specification (SUS3).