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Who cares about damn java?????? Better say something about iWeb, Steve!!!!!!! :mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:
I don't particularly like Java (Objective-C is much nicer IMO), but there are a few very useful Java apps around, especially a few that bridge the Windows-OSX gap. Think of CrashPlan (brilliant backup app) and iTunes syncing apps that work across the Windows-OSX gap.

I think it would have been a lot nicer if they had not removed their own support until something else was in place. It won't hurt much until years from now, but I still think this is not a nice move. It closes the OSX ecosystem a bit more.
 
Mac Desktop at 20%?
Since when? :confused:
Since Apple said so? Actually, they said the US consumer space new machines sold is now 20% Mac. That does not mean 20% of desktops are Mac, but far, far less. Industry is almost completely Windows, which means you are talking 10% Mac. Then factor in existing installations and you'll be down to something like 8%. Then factor in the rest of the world and the Mac will be down to something like 3-4% I guess.
 
This stuns me.
First Apple tossed Carbon aside, now tossing Java aside. We're left with Cocoa, the basis of iOS apps. I'll bet when more Lion details leak, we find out that iOS and OS X will just be check boxes in the "target" field, just like when they added Intel. You'll end up without a separate development platform, just one version of Xcode, with the checkboxes for OS X, iPhone, and iPad. (PPC will be gone, so they won't bother with OS X-PPC and OS X-Intel.)

this man speaks the truth
 
I don't mind being a version behind, especially because there isn't really a difference between the versions. I have never had issues with that.

I don't really like Java because it's slow, and this makes it worse than Flash. However, just like Flash, we need it for some things from time to time. And no matter how you hate a technology, it's still better to use it than not be able to run an application or website you want.

So back to Flash here, just because Flash is inefficient doesn't mean you should remove it from the system. The same way, (this is just a theoretical example) just because you don't like WMV videos doesn't mean you should remove support for it (if there was any support). What if you come across some video or content you want to see, and it requires your much hated technology. You might find it's still better than nothing.
 
First Apple tossed Carbon aside, now tossing Java aside. We're left with Cocoa, the basis of iOS apps. I'll bet when more Lion details leak, we find out that iOS and OS X will just be check boxes in the "target" field, just like when they added Intel. You'll end up without a separate development platform, just one version of Xcode, with the checkboxes for OS X, iPhone, and iPad. (PPC will be gone, so they won't bother with OS X-PPC and OS X-Intel.)

"Captain, I am detecting strong BS emissions coming from starboard!!!"

Cocoa is NOT the "basis for iOS apps"; Cocoa has historically been the "preferred"(and now, only) API for developing MAC OS X Apps, and CocoaTouch is just a customized descendant thereof, targeted at iOS.

Mac OS X going Cocoa Only has NOTHING to do with all the widespread FUD that "eventually Mac OS X and iOS will merge in a touch-based desktop experience only for media consumption etc. etc. and we professionals are screwed etc. etc. Steve abandoned us!"
 
Very interesting indeed. Unless Oracle will release a JDK for Mac this may mean that I know 200+ software developers (no kidding, my company) that will ditch the Mac and buy another machine because the tiny 2000$ Mac investment that we "threw out of the window" is NOTHING in comparison to the millions of dollars invested in building mission-critical Java Systems for us and our clients.

I actually believe that this announcement could play a much bigger roll in abandoning the Mac than many other previous announcements (like the totally locked down Mac App Store) because I hardly know anybody that did not buy the Mac as a result of wanting a nice Unix-like system for software development. And keep in mind, Objective C is only a program language for fart apps, it's not for real world business and web-scale software.
 
Mac OS X going Cocoa Only has NOTHING to do with all the widespread FUD that "eventually Mac OS X and iOS will merge in a touch-based desktop experience only for media consumption etc. etc. and we professionals are screwed etc. etc. Steve abandoned us!"

Well we Java developers ARE screwed and Steve really abandoned us. No FUD in it :(
 
Who cares about damn java?????? Better say something about iWeb, Steve!!!!!!! :mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:

Hmm...Lets weigh this out:

On one side we have Java, a century old technology that has proven to be a great way of making applications for multiple operating systems. Easy to learn, great OS support (all be it a bit ugly).

On the other side we have iWeb...a wysiwyg editor for people who cant be arsed to learn HTML, the most simple programming language in the world.

IF I had to guess:

iWeb Usage Share: 1.5%
Java Usage Share: 98.5%

A lot more apps on your Mac use Java than you may think.
 
Well we Java developers ARE screwed and Steve really abandoned us. No FUD in it :(

Oracle/Sun have been pretty good with Java so I would expect they will fill the void. I wouldn't be too concerned at this point.

It does seem silly that Apple are the ones working on the OS X Java builds when it should really be Oracle.
 
Oracle/Sun have been pretty good with Java so I would expect they will fill the void. I wouldn't be too concerned at this point.

It does seem silly that Apple are the ones working on the OS X Java builds when it should really be Oracle.

Well, due to good integration between Apple JVM and underlying OS, Macs for platforms of choice for most of us. It may have been late with updates but it was working much better, at least for IDEs and that's what counts here the most here. (Java on OS X was never really the server platform).

Sun Oracle/Java on Linux and Windows have been ugly and on OS X it have been much nicer. Even if Oracle started making it's own JVM for OS X (I really don't see it coming, their own OS X development is null) it would be the same ugly patch that is on Linux and Windows. And it's much cheaper there. If i have to use X11 to develop Java i will do that. On Ubuntu and some cheap PC.
 
the blessed API

Cocoa is the blessed API and it was before iOS was released. Java has been mostly irrelevant on the Mac for sometime and Apple's craptastic releases have been behind the curve. All this signals is that Apple is finally putting Java out of its misery and handing it off to someone else who will (hopefully) do a better job.

When OS X launched, there was a lot of buzz about Java applications with the whole "write once, run anywhere." This is before we all realized it was "write once, debug everywhere." The need and the strategy for Java, particularly in the application space, was aborted a long time ago.

As for the checkbox in Xcode, it's pretty clear that you haven't coded applications for either iOS or OS X. The differences aren't as simple as a checkbox. Let me repeat, for the umpteenth time, iOS and OS X are NOT converging. Are they going to have shared core libraries? Yes. Are they going to have ideas pass between one another? Yes. Are there going to be similarities? Yes.

Are they going to become one OS? No. Why? Because it makes absolutely, positively NO SENSE. I'm so looking forward to seeing 50% of the comments on this site degenerate into, "OS X IS DEAD! NETCRAFT CONFIRMS IT! iOS is taking over!" Every time any conspiracy theorist nutjob around here notices some similarity between the two.

It makes quite a lot of sense from a practical point of view for Apple to merge iOS and OS X back together, and their moves are all pointing in that direction so far - maintaining two separate OSs has been difficult for them (hence the last OS X release which was more housekeeping than anything else, with a price to match). I suspect we'll see the desktop become more like the phone OS in many ways (we've seen a preview of), and cocoa NSViews phased out in favour of UIView etc. Then there will be another blessed API - these things change all the time.

In fact what you're saying (sharing core libraries, UI ideas, being very similar) is very close to a merger, and could cover anything from the present situation to almost complete merging in everything but name. I agree there are certain differences in UI which are essential between desktop and phone, but that doesn't preclude having OS X move towards iOS, even to the point of being subsumed by it. That's no big deal, though it does indicate which direction Apple want to go in - more control over developers, mandating which tech developers use so they can't go cross platform, tying them in to their platform and making it difficult to port, and having one blessed API which is supported to the exclusion of all else.

These things are clear from their Mac App Store (at present optional) conditions, which mandate language, compiler, and toolchain - they basically tie you to working for Apple to improve their platform, and no others. Soon that won't be optional, it'll be required. Very like Microsoft in fact. The Java decision is mostly pragmatic, but ties in with other changes (app store) to indicate the direction Apple is headed - it's not a good direction for developers, or in the long term, users.

Oh noes! Look at the Windows 7 phone! Microsoft is abandoning teh PCS!

Actually, Apple are far more likely to abandon their Mac business (as they already partially have, than MS ever are to abandon Windows. Remember that line 'milk the mac for all its worth and then move on to the next big thing'? Jobs in particular sees Macs and the desktop as old-hat, and yesterday's war - there's a reason there have been no significant updates in desktop OS X for a while now, and the updates to Lion are mostly bringing features from iOS back to OS X - it is getting far less attention, and at some stage may be retired completely. Microsoft, in contrast, still earns most of their money from desktop OSs and the software that runs on them - everything else is just a way to guide people back to Windows.
 
As a Java developer who owns a Mac, I am highly disappointed. I really don't want to have to move to Windows or Linux for my desktop. I hope there are plans in the works with Apple/Oracle. :(
 
Very interesting indeed. Unless Oracle will release a JDK for Mac this may mean that I know 200+ software developers (no kidding, my company) that will ditch the Mac and buy another machine because the tiny 2000$ Mac investment that we "threw out of the window" is NOTHING in comparison to the millions of dollars invested in building mission-critical Java Systems for us and our clients.

I actually believe that this announcement could play a much bigger roll in abandoning the Mac than many other previous announcements (like the totally locked down Mac App Store) because I hardly know anybody that did not buy the Mac as a result of wanting a nice Unix-like system for software development. And keep in mind, Objective C is only a program language for fart apps, it's not for real world business and web-scale software.

Same here, several hundred developers right now with Macbook Pros, basically in the company they have the choice between a windows (that is: elitebook) or a mac machine (and most of them choose the mac) - both is supported.

The uncertainness regarding Java on OSX will be enough to not switch any new developers to OSX in the coming months. I'd say that might be enough to phase out all mac-based java development here in the future.

You just cannot run Idea, Eclipse, Subversion-Tools, UML Modellers, several inhouse RCP applications on OpenJDK at the moment - that's a pure mess.

If there's no oracle announcement regarding that issue in the coming weeks I'd say Java development on OSX will be dead - and with that the general usage of OSX in the enterprise (where a substantial numer of applications are Java based these days).

As an enterprise you simply cannot afford choosing a platform without a real Java support imho.

That's pure arrogance on Apple's part.
 
This is a decision that comes across as not being thought through with the customer in mind or with a valid solution to mention. Well done Apple, yet another standard dropped, because no one uses Java right? :rolleyes:

Also is has been pointed out flash is very little of Abobe business so really not going to hurt them well. Abobe still can point a lot of the problems with flash on OSX right back at Apple.

Agreed, I'm having terrible problems with Apples released Adobe let alone Adobes own release n all my browsers, my You tube vids stop every 3 seconds, scrolling web pages with embedded YT vids stops on those videos etc.. time to repair disk permissions for the 50th time. It's all good and well slaging off a standard used for years on the internet, but it doesn't really help me the customer, but Apple isn't thinking of the customer anymore it would seem? I'm going to buy an Android phone next year and if it's good enough ditch my iPhone 4!
 
Denial: Surely Oracle will pick this up. OK, so they don't have any reason to, but they seem so nice!

Anger: I hate you Apple! I'm burning all my jeans and black turtlenecks!

Bargaining: If I send a really polite email to Steve Jobs, maybe he'll reconsider.

Depression: What's the use anyway? As private parts to Steve Jobs are we, he plays with us for his sport.

Acceptance: It's not the end of the world. I can do just as good a job on Windows or Linux.
 
Same here, several hundred developers right now with Macbook Pros, basically in the company they have the choice between a windows (that is: elitebook) or a mac machine (and most of them choose the mac) - both is supported.

The uncertainness regarding Java on OSX will be enough to not switch any new developers to OSX in the coming months. I'd say that might be enough to phase out all mac-based java development here in the future.

You just cannot run Idea, Eclipse, Subversion-Tools, UML Modellers, several inhouse RCP applications on OpenJDK at the moment - that's a pure mess.

If there's no oracle announcement regarding that issue in the coming weeks I'd say Java development on OSX will be dead - and with that the general usage of OSX in the enterprise (where a substantial numer of applications are Java based these days).

As an enterprise you simply cannot afford choosing a platform without a real Java support imho.

That's pure arrogance on Apple's part.

Mac exists in the enterprise because of the Java software engineers. Those 5 web designers that use Mac won't uphold the MacBook's market share for long.

Also, don't forget: A large part of Objective C developers are Java developers (I know I am and my next desk neighbor is, too. The guy behind me, too... et cetara).

If you haven't got Objective C developers, there won't be new fart apps to make the iPhone meaningful....

I think Steve has NOT thought this through entirely... This may (as I said previously) be the trigger that will make Apples market share go down.

After all, I can build all business apps (those that pay my bills) on Linux and Windows... oh, and you know what else you can use Linux and Windows for? Yes! Writing the same fart apps for Google Android! You don't even have to learn the hideous C/Smalltalk-mixup called Objective C! :D
 
Since IBM has given it's support to OpenJDK chances are this is what most Java devs are going to use (transition has started in the linux community), I believe you can already compile OpenJDK on mac os x.

So for those that use Java it shouldn't be a big deal at the arrival of Lion.

By the way, xCode 4 is optimized for C languages (C, Obj-C, C++, Obj-C++), but the projects that Apple support behind it can be used for a lot of other languages.
Pretty sure, CLANG projects will appear for a lot of common languages.

Finally this move should have been pretty obvious for those that use Apple dev tools, years ago Apple removed all Java templates from xCode, so trying to get to use an Oracle project as runtime is probably the best move (even more so since Oracle is pulverizing every single project they don't have full control on).
 
don't worry folks

This is just Apple's strategy of getting companies to put up or shut up on the apple platform. If there's a need for Java, Oracle will have to consider Mac OS X a platform they need to support.

Apple having coddled their own version of java for Mac for so long just shows us how strong Apple things their future is right now. Having java back in the hands of the owners of the platform is important because it shows that Apple is gaining strength on the platform.

( and frankly, why on earth would you need constant updates for java now? I haven't updated my java runtime in like 3-4 years on my PCs )
 
LLVM Java -> VMKit

Not fully compatible though....

I also wonder: What will the selling point for Mac OS X Server be? Right now Apple sells Snow Leopard Server by telling us that it gets high marks on the SpecJbb benchmarks. What will they say when Lion comes? "You can share your own podcasts so much faster now!" :)
 
I'm sure they will. Maybe their version won't be quite as suitable when it comes to native-looking widgets, but Java has never been good in that department anyway.

Which was one of the many reasons why SWT was created...
 
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