I totally agree, almost all my software is AT LEAST four years old, I wouldn't want it any other way!
Got a tip for us?
Let us know
Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.
Steve Jobs Comments on Apple's Java Discontinuation
- Thread starter MacRumors
- Start date
- Sort by reaction score
I totally agree, almost all my software is AT LEAST four years old, I wouldn't want it any other way!
You rather obviously don't know what you're talking about. Neither has Oracle any financial issues nor do they play the same sport as Apple.
You've heard of Oracle's blade servers and other big iron that were specifically designed to run hordes of Java VMs? Oracle isn't talking about toy hardware here - they're talking about the data center, the very place where they make their money.
OpenJDK requires X11 on OSX. Not only that this totally sucks from a UI usability point of view - but if Apple deprecates Java, they surely deprecate X11 soon, too.
So, that's not only a suboptimal (crappy?) solution with the danger of not working in the future, also.
For any Java dev (and enterprises with Java devs and/or Java applications) that's a total No-Go.
I repeat my opinion (which I'll say loud in our company): if there's no Oracle announcement in the coming weeks regarding this issue, Apple is
a.) definitely dead in the Java software development area (the most popular programming language, see Tiobe)
b.) kicking itself out of many enterprises, because there's tons of applications with many enterprise customers requiring Java on the desktop (I currently use that ****** HP QualityCenter, used by nearly 1k people in our company - built upon Eclipse)
If Oracle can provide its database on Mac OS X then it sure as hell can provide Java, which is considerably less complex, on Mac OS X. I'd put money on it Apple will transfer the code to Oracle and Oracle will merge it into its tree and voila by the time next year we'll be getting JDK/JRE's off Oracle.
It is all about decreasing the security vulnerability area by firstly dropping Flash and secondly by dropping Java - Lion will be marketed as the 'most secure Mac OS X to date' and all will be happy.
I wouldn't. I don't think, Oracle will care that much about OSX.
I'd say Apple is shooting itself in the foot here, why should Oracle come and help?
Does Oracle make any money on OSX? Where's the strategic interest? They'll just deprecate SQL Developer and some other minor tools on OSX, whatever. Doesn't hurt.
Is any strategic Oracle product (that is: Database, Middleware, eBusiness-Suites) certified & supported on OSX anyway? I don't know. Afaik 11G, Fusion Middleware & eBusiness-Suites, Weblogic, Oracle BPM, Peoplesoft, Siebel (not at all) are all not certified & supported on OSX (they might be running, but that doesn't matter to enterprise customers).
The remaining rest of the software branch (MySQL, etc.) is just a bunch of toys for Larry.
I don't see any strategic & monetary interest coming from Oracle to support Java on OSX. They're not sun, remember? All that matters to them is money.
Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU iPhone OS 4_1 like Mac OS X; en-us) AppleWebKit/532.9 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/4.0.5 Mobile/8B117 Safari/6531.22.7)
First the use of Java in the enterprise is dying off. In your case you are into it up to your neck and can not see what is happening around you.
Second the Mac App Store is not totally locked down, your saying that brings into question your status as a developer. Apple has been very very clear on this issue.
In the end I don't like the idea that Apple is dropping Java but I can understand why they would do it. With Oracles recent stewardship and the unknowns there the timing of the news is less than ideal. The reality is that Java on the Mac is nothing but bloat in many cases, it would be far better if it was handled as a third party facility. Many whinners here just don't seem to understand how insignificant Java has become due to their deep involment in its application. It is all about percentages and the realization that the demand for Apples Java just isn't there.
Further I have to agree Apple really shouldn't be maintaing a Java port. They have some really skilled people that could better be put to use on new technology development. For example reassigning the Java development team to LLVM or XCode development. Especially XCode which can be liken to a car struck deer that has been left in a ditch for a couple of months.
Dave
sicn said:
First the use of Java in the enterprise is dying off. In your case you are into it up to your neck and can not see what is happening around you.
Second the Mac App Store is not totally locked down, your saying that brings into question your status as a developer. Apple has been very very clear on this issue.
In the end I don't like the idea that Apple is dropping Java but I can understand why they would do it. With Oracles recent stewardship and the unknowns there the timing of the news is less than ideal. The reality is that Java on the Mac is nothing but bloat in many cases, it would be far better if it was handled as a third party facility. Many whinners here just don't seem to understand how insignificant Java has become due to their deep involment in its application. It is all about percentages and the realization that the demand for Apples Java just isn't there.
Further I have to agree Apple really shouldn't be maintaing a Java port. They have some really skilled people that could better be put to use on new technology development. For example reassigning the Java development team to LLVM or XCode development. Especially XCode which can be liken to a car struck deer that has been left in a ditch for a couple of months.
Dave
Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU iPhone OS 4_1 like Mac OS X; en-us) AppleWebKit/532.9 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/4.0.5 Mobile/8B117 Safari/6531.22.7)
One thing about this thread that bothers me is the often raised business angle. I'm going to be perfectly blunt here but if your business has been tied to Java for years you need to look at your management team. It is simply a poor choice in my mind to choose Java over standardized languages. Frankly this is a good example of why.
One thing about this thread that bothers me is the often raised business angle. I'm going to be perfectly blunt here but if your business has been tied to Java for years you need to look at your management team. It is simply a poor choice in my mind to choose Java over standardized languages. Frankly this is a good example of why.
autrefois
macrumors 65816
My first reaction:
This move completely makes sense now, since Apple's most recent financial results show they are more strapped for cash now than ever and obviously can't afford to keep putting resources towards updating Java (Oracle has a lot more cash to spare than Apple, right?
).
My second reaction:
Then again, if Apple can't even bother with updating their own OS X software properly/regularly, it's not surprising that they're abandoning Java. Maybe that'll mean one more body working on Lion/Pro apps/etc.
I think the media event about the Mac this week was meant to show us that OS X finally isn't on the back burner anymore (Apple admitted a while ago that they had diverted resources from Mac to focus on iOS), so I guess time will tell if that's actually the case now.
This move completely makes sense now, since Apple's most recent financial results show they are more strapped for cash now than ever and obviously can't afford to keep putting resources towards updating Java (Oracle has a lot more cash to spare than Apple, right?
).My second reaction:
Then again, if Apple can't even bother with updating their own OS X software properly/regularly, it's not surprising that they're abandoning Java. Maybe that'll mean one more body working on Lion/Pro apps/etc.
I think the media event about the Mac this week was meant to show us that OS X finally isn't on the back burner anymore (Apple admitted a while ago that they had diverted resources from Mac to focus on iOS), so I guess time will tell if that's actually the case now.
Before anyone gets the wrong idea -- as a developer it is vital to me for Java to remain supported in OS X, as I do have to use it for certain stuff.
However, are you sure these "great Java programs" couldn't have been 10 times better if written natively?
That was my experience -- I thought I was using great software with the Java ReaderWare -- then native apps DVDPedia/BookPedia/CDPedia from Bruji came out and they along with Delicious Library make ReaderWare look like a joke.
What do you mean by "standardized languages"?
I would consider this as an example of why OS X is a poor choice in a business setting. Not only axing Java but also the way Apple spring these rather important news on unsuspecting businesses. That is simply not something a mature company would do.
As I remember from that time, and I may very well be wrong, Carbon was not really an "equal." It was, as you point out, a way for developers to quickly move from one platform to the next (or not so quickly, for some). I remember an emphasis being placed on getting code to Cocoa, indicating a limited lifespan on OS X for Carbon.
While that may have been true in the past, Steve does not have his facts straight.
Java SE 6 Update 22 from Oracle - released Oct 12, 2010
Java SE 6 Update 22 from Apple - released Oct 20, 2010
Minor correction on your correction.
Side-note: compliant versions of OS X are, together with Solaris and HP/UX, the only systems compliant with the latest UNIX specification (SUS3).
Given the fact that the PPC and x86 versions of Leopard both derived from mostly the same codebase, I'm willing to speculate that the PPC version of Leopard would have been deemed to be UNIX compliant.
I suspect that the only thing which prevented Leopard on PPC from being a certified UNIX, was the fact that PPC hardware had already been phased out of Apple's lineup, and as such Apple couldn't justify the extra expense of submitting the PPC binaries for audit.
Um, not to stir the pot here, but what about Final Cut Server? Isn't the client software a Java application?
THings that make you go hmmmmm......
THings that make you go hmmmmm......
Sheesh.
What's with all the panic? Especially among Java devs? You should KNOW better!!!
Apple is not removing Java from anyone's machine, they just updated it!
They use crazy amounts of Java in house, and their entire web application suite and in-house db work depends on Java!
WebObjects is Java! Every dollar they make goes through WO apps. EVERY SINGLE ONE. Probably 99.9% of WO development (in and out of Apple) is with Eclipse/WOLips. . . i.e. JAVA.
Apple is not ditching Java. They are letting subsequent development of the JVM and JDK take place where it does for everyone else. With all the devs using Java on the mac, what possible reason would Oracle have to not support it? OBVIOUSLY Apple is expecting Oracle to continue the development of Java for the mac.
What's with all the panic? Especially among Java devs? You should KNOW better!!!
Apple is not removing Java from anyone's machine, they just updated it!
They use crazy amounts of Java in house, and their entire web application suite and in-house db work depends on Java!
WebObjects is Java! Every dollar they make goes through WO apps. EVERY SINGLE ONE. Probably 99.9% of WO development (in and out of Apple) is with Eclipse/WOLips. . . i.e. JAVA.
Apple is not ditching Java. They are letting subsequent development of the JVM and JDK take place where it does for everyone else. With all the devs using Java on the mac, what possible reason would Oracle have to not support it? OBVIOUSLY Apple is expecting Oracle to continue the development of Java for the mac.
They came first for the Communists,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist.
Then they came for the trade unionists,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a trade unionist.
Then they came for the Jews,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew.
Then they came for me
and by that time no one was left to speak up. - Martin Niemöller