Steve Jobs Interviewed on Location Tracking Issues

[eastercat]

Have you noticed any issues without having this file? It seems to make sense this location tracking has benefits for performance of the phone in regards to signal acquisition.

If there are any issues, they have been so minute as to be unnoticeable.

People were actually willing to make their phones not work properly because of their ignorance and paranoia.

There is nothing wrong with a healthy skepticism of any company that has the ability to discern your location. Until I see some proof that Apple is not misusing the data or that it can't be hacked into (e.g. Sony), I don't want Apple to have this information anymore. If other people want to believe Apple based on faith, that's their prerogative; I'm going to be an atheist (just like I am with regards to religion).
Besides, while they may not be misusing it now, that doesn't mean they can't misuse it in the future.

 

[samcraig]

We're not idiots...of course the iPhone needs to figure out where I am when I ask Google to locate me on a map...or explicitly allow an app (like AroundMe) to identify restaurants within 15 miles of my location. But to constantly track me every single minute of the day is just wrong. Period. End of story.

Very likely this Federal lawsuit will pave the way for much clear disclosure by companies regarding tracking our physical movements.

I'll get slammed for this - but I don't care. Apple is playing a big part in the dumbing down of (some of) society by taking control/options away from users and keeping a walled garden. And I don't want/intend this to turn into a debate about walled/not; security; etc. My point is - that Apple and several other companies/educational institutions and even parents are increasingly participating in the dumbing down of America/other countries.

Apple doesn't want users to have to worry about x, y and z. That's GREAT. It really is. But at the same time - but taking users away from understanding the technology they are using - they are also contributing to the very thing they are (in Steve's latest speech) trying to avoid.

I'd love a car that is "maintenance free." Until the car actually needed some work done. If I have to rely on a 3rd party to do that maintenance and I can't do it myself - then it means those skills will never be learned or used (naturally.) I don't always see this as a positive.

I'm able to do a lot of electrical work and computer/video/etc repair work on my own because I was able to (when I was young) take things apart, learn how things worked inside and out.

I'll stop rambling...

 

[theelysium]

This is a huge nothing issue and the press is making a big deal about it because they are all libs and they hate corporations. They will do anything to make them look evil and out to get everyone. They also like to down success in any way possible.

I have 2 iPhones, 2 iPods, 1 iPad and 2 MacBook Pros they can track until their hearts content if they want. I'd also like to track them myself so I'll keep those services turned on!

I'd like to note that i know that Apple does not gather the tracking information. I am just saying if they wanted to they can, I don't care.

 

[toddybody]

I'll get slammed for this - but I don't care. Apple is playing a big part in the dumbing down of (some of) society by taking control/options away from users and keeping a walled garden. And I don't want/intend this to turn into a debate about walled/not; security; etc. My point is - that Apple and several other companies/educational institutions and even parents are increasingly participating in the dumbing down of America/other countries.

Apple doesn't want users to have to worry about x, y and z. That's GREAT. It really is. But at the same time - but taking users away from understanding the technology they are using - they are also contributing to the very thing they are (in Steve's latest speech) trying to avoid.

I'd love a car that is "maintenance free." Until the car actually needed some work done. If I have to rely on a 3rd party to do that maintenance and I can't do it myself - then it means those skills will never be learned or used (naturally.) I don't always see this as a positive.

I'm able to do a lot of electrical work and computer/video/etc repair work on my own because I was able to (when I was young) take things apart, learn how things worked inside and out.

I'll stop rambling...

Yeah it was hard to follow...but nobody should "slam" you for it. Stay well

 

[eastercat]

This is a huge nothing issue and the press is making a big deal about it because they are all libs and they hate corporations. They will do anything to make them look evil and out to get everyone. They also like to down success in any way possible.

While you can probably name corporations that have done good deeds, I can name corporations whose actions have been responsible for the murder of millions of people.
If you want to believe that corporations do the right thing, that's your right. However, I'm going to approach them with a healthy skepticism--just like I'm going to approach the recording of my location data.

 

[samcraig]

Remember the issue with the antenna, it was again Steve Jobs who took the platform to explain their findings, and to give a partial solution. Where was Google when they got caught out with wifi data? Oh yes, they were talking about going up to the "creepy line".

Do you really want to go there? Steve only (and finally) spoke up only after many articles, bad press and a bad review from Consumer Reports came out. Apple's official stance was that there was no issue. Then it was a software issue and how it displayed the bars. Then there was an issue - but an issue shared by all phones (only it wasn't the same issue) - antenna attenuation.

I think pretty much any business is going to act in their best interest as much as they possible can until their bottom line is in jeopardy.

 

[err404]

Arrgh, not again In this case, A-GPS only means that satellite status and orbit information comes from an assistance server on the internet. It does not require cell or wifi info to work. Those are separate methods. The correct term for the combination of them is "hybrid locating system".

Assisted GPS is kind of a blanket term for a number of techniques used to augment the performance of a GPS receiver. Ranging from CPU offloading to approximating the initial starting location. Through knowing the approximate location the GPS is able to obtain a Sat fix far more quickly. Think of it as a tradition GPS Hot fix.

Try this example. Put you phone into airplane mode, travel a significant distance (100 miles or so) from your last known position and while still in airplane mode try to get a GPS lock. It will take a long time for the initial lock. Now try the same scenario, but enable the cell radio once at your new location. This time you will receive a lock much more quickly.

The consolidated db is a cache of the assistance data that allows for this rapid GPS lock w/o needing to query Apples servers for extra details.

Still the distinction boils down to definitions of marketing terms. Neither aGPS or "hybrid locating system" have a well defined set of technical requirements. It's a lot like classifying a tech as '4G'.

 

[FriarNurgle]

If there are any issues, they have been so minute as to be unnoticeable.

Thanks. I still think this is much to do about nothing as there is much more sensitive and personal info on our phones and computers... but back to the topic at hand.

I like the fact that Apple is addressing this issue. However, it would be nice to hear more about how this data tracking benefits us. What apps and features use it? What % performance increase does it give? What benefit does it give Apple and it's third party partners? I want to see the pros as we seem to have covered the cons with much vigor recently.

 

[NAG]

As it was said tons of times, privacy is important. If something is being done to "track" me (no matter what other fancy terms they use for "track" or how much they down play it as some technical necessity) they are still tracking me. Period. Where that data goes and how it's used and how I am tracked should 100% be written in plain English before purchasing said product.

Have you read the user agreements? Now, if you rail against how long they are here is another question. What information would you take out?

The unfortunate truth is that there are a lot of things that one could claim is important for Apple to tell you. One of those things is that when you use tracking functions that yes, the iPhone does indeed need to somehow access such location data. Another is that McDonald's coffee is indeed hot.

The only issue that conflicts with your right to not be tracked is that there was a bug that didn't turn off the location cache when you turned location services off. That rightfully needs to be fixed. Claiming that Apple never said this anywhere because you don't want to read the user agreement is not an issue with Apple but an issue with society as a whole.

 

[*LTD*]

I'll get slammed for this - but I don't care. Apple is playing a big part in the dumbing down of (some of) society by taking control/options away from users and keeping a walled garden.

Making tech simpler and more enjoyable to use for everyone is *helping* society. You shouldn't need any kind of extra training to use a "computer."

Apple's "walled garden" is the REASON for their success. Didn't you know that? They've been doing the walled garden thing for over a decade. The result? Exxon Mobil's about to occupy second place. Apple has more spare cash than the total worth of a lot of not-insignificant tech companies. And consumers time and time again have given their consent. Apple's approach is a *good* thing for everyone. Their results show pretty clearly that consumers have said YES to Apple's approach. Yes in good times, yes in a recession. It's been constant, some would say totally unprecedented growth for Apple. That's huge. Both because a lot of their gear tends to be more expensive, their ecosystem is controlled, and they usually don't license anything out to anyone (I thank my lucky stars for this last point every day.)

We don't need more "options." There are so many options out there it's absolutely staggering. What we *need* is simpler, usable, enjoyable tech, for *everyone.* Throwing an ocean of options at the user is not the answer. Having a ****-load of options available purely for the sake of having them available, is not the answer. Making tech easy, accessible, and as worry-free as possible is the answer. That means you can't take the stuff you make and let other people mess with it. That means closed licensing. That means actually paying attention to what is done with the tech. That means keeping a tight rein on who can alter it and how it's done.

This is why Apple is so successful, usually by doing the opposite of everyone else. Which, in turn, prompts everyone else (with a few exceptions) to move more in Apple's direction, ironically.

Now your mom and your grandma can use tech and look like experts doing it, thanks to Apple. If you think that particular perspective doesn't matter, you're in for a huge surprise over the next few years.

 

[gnasher729]

How about keeping on topic. This thread isn't about Sony. Start a thread elsewhere if you want to discuss it.

You are getting very defensive here. It is entirely on topic here to put whatever Apple is doing and criticized for into perspective. Emotions and paranoia tend to get out of hand, so comparing Apple's tiny problem with a major privacy desaster at Sony should help people recognizing properly how much or how little of a problem Apple has.

Is that a fact because Apple said so? Or because someone can actually prove it?

Their software patents would at least suggest they planned on using it.

You have to define what you mean by "Apple is using it". Of course Apple's software that runs on _your_ iPhone reads and uses the data. But the data isn't sent to Apple's servers. So no server that is under Apple's control sees the data in this file.

 

[NAG]

However, it would be nice to hear more about how this data tracking benefits us. What apps and features use it? What % performance increase does it give? What benefit does it give Apple and it's third party partners? I want to see the pros as we seem to have covered the cons with much vigor recently.

The most visible one that Apple gave was that it takes minutes for a GPS location if you don't have an assist. You can sort of test this by going out and getting a dumb GPS and seeing how long it takes to find you. In my experience it can take hours (moved between hemispheres so the GPS took a while to figure out where it moved to). With wifi and cell tower data it can speed up location finding because it can give the phone a pretty good estimate as to where you are as a starting point. Keeping a local cache of nearby locations allows the phone to not have to query constantly and increase the speed even more assuming you don't have a fast network connection. This also increases your battery life as the phone isn't working as hard or as long.

Exact percentages? Beats me. The location finding ability of the device would be greatly decreased without this sort of cache, though.

Here is a wired article if you want a longer explanation.

 

[SeattleMoose]

Kudos To Jobs/Apple

for trying to come clean and be honest.

Because so far Google has volunteered to......crickets.......

 

[Mattie Num Nums]

We don't need more "options."

That would be dumbing down.

The smart thing to do is weigh your options. We weigh our options with everything in life. Life the toilet seat or leave it down, what to eat for dinner, what to post on MR, why not have an option as to which $500 dollar phone + $100+ dollar a month plan I want, and the option to use it as I please?

 

[jajohns8]

I'm a little surprised apple didn't see something like this coming.
Any sort of stored db on the phone with what looks like location data was bound to make some people scared.

Even if the data is just the wifi hot spot/cel tower data, you can't trust your average joe schmo 'wannabee' techie to really understand what he is looking at.

I am glad that apple is acknowledging that educating people is the answer here.

 

[samcraig]

Making tech easy, accessible, and as worry-free as possible is the answer. That means you can't take the stuff you make and let other people mess with it. That means closed licensing. That means actually paying attention to what is done with the tech. That means keeping a tight rein on who can alter it and how it's done.

This is why Apple is so successful, usually by doing the opposite of everyone else. Which, in turn, prompts everyone else (with a few exceptions) to move more in Apple's direction, ironically.

Now your mom and your grandma can use tech and look like experts doing it, thanks to Apple. If you think that particular perspective doesn't matter, you're in for a huge surprise over the next few years.

You just proved my point. Thanks.

You are getting very defensive here. It is entirely on topic here to put whatever Apple is doing and criticized for into perspective. Emotions and paranoia tend to get out of hand, so comparing Apple's tiny problem with a major privacy desaster at Sony should help people recognizing properly how much or how little of a problem Apple has.

It's irrelevant to this thread topic. There are a million people dying in X and yesterday, someone got mugged near where I work. Just because millions of people are dying doesn't make the person that got mugged any less of an issue.

I'm not defensive at all. I just think if people want to talk about this issue they can without trying to compare it to something else as if that makes this issue less of an issue.

 

[NebulaClash]

I just got done reading Hackers and then Revolution in the Valley, so I recognize samcraig's complaint about a walled garden as something Apple has dealt with since its inception with the Apple ][ being Woz's exception to what soon became a standard complaint about the company.

I understand the desire to have people know how things work. That's the hacker ethic. Hackers want to understand what makes things tick. That's a very useful skill. I applaud it. As someone who knows how to fix my car, and who has put computers together, knew DOS inside and out, wrote assembler code, etc., I can relate to what is being said.

But I applaud Apple's approach. Why? Because I've seen humanity, and most people -- the vast majority -- do not want to know how things work. That itch that hackers have is not shared by most people. Does this lead to the dumbing down of society? No, society was dumb to begin with. The hackers thought they could raise society up from this level by showing them how to hack computers, but most people couldn't care less.

So what do we do with a society that does not care? The hacker says give 'em the hacking tools and let them learn anyway. Steve Jobs said, no, give them a simpler device and let it work for them.

Do you insist that you know how to fly a plane, or do you get on a commercial airliner and get the benefit of flying without having to hack a plane's engine? Does this dumb down society?

Do you insist on completing your medical degree to care for your body, or do you go to the doctor and let him hack your health? Does this dumb down society?

So why must we insist that Macbooks be completely open, or that the Mac App Store be wide open to anyone who wants to put whatever junk they want inside? The walled garden approach taken by Apple (and almost everything else in our society -- TV, book publishing, sports teams, you name it) is a recognition that we are all different, not everyone wants to hack things, some people simply want to use a tool to do whatever appeals to them.

I'd rather live in a world where Apple creates powerful but simple devices that empower even the tech illiterate, than to live in a world of complicated devices that only a small percentage dare to use. The hackers will always be among us, and hackable devices will always be with us, so don't complain about one company that decided to market to the other 90% of humanity in ways that please the customer very much.

 

[Stridder44]

All the while the real Big Brother, Google, gets surprisingly little scrutiny from the American press.

Exactly. This whole thing is ridiculous. Both Google and the telecom companies track you, and probably a lot more.

 

[samcraig]

I just got done reading Hackers and then Revolution in the Valley, so I recognize samcraig's complaint about a walled garden as something Apple has dealt with since its inception with the Apple ][ being Woz's exception to what soon became a standard complaint about the company.

I understand the desire to have people know how things work. That's the hacker ethic. Hackers want to understand what makes things tick. That's a very useful skill. I applaud it. As someone who knows how to fix my car, and who has put computers together, knew DOS inside and out, wrote assembler code, etc., I can relate to what is being said.

But I applaud Apple's approach. Why? Because I've seen humanity, and most people -- the vast majority -- do not want to know how things work. That itch that hackers have is not shared by most people. Does this lead to the dumbing down of society? No, society was dumb to begin with. The hackers thought they could raise society up from this level by showing them how to hack computers, but most people couldn't care less.

So what do we do with a society that does not care? The hacker says give 'em the hacking tools and let them learn anyway. Steve Jobs said, no, give them a simpler device and let it work for them.

(edited for brevity)

So why must we insist that Macbooks be completely open, or that the Mac App Store be wide open to anyone who wants to put whatever junk they want inside? The walled garden approach taken by Apple (and almost everything else in our society -- TV, book publishing, sports teams, you name it) is a recognition that we are all different, not everyone wants to hack things, some people simply want to use a tool to do whatever appeals to them.

I'd rather live in a world where Apple creates powerful but simple devices that empower even the tech illiterate, than to live in a world of complicated devices that only a small percentage dare to use. The hackers will always be among us, and hackable devices will always be with us, so don't complain about one company that decided to market to the other 90% of humanity in ways that please the customer very much.

Great post. Just one thing (or maybe 2?)

I never said I didn't like what Apple has done or that the technology isn't great.

What I was stating is that Apple, along with other companies contribute to the dumbing down of society. And then put themselves in a position to speak down to you (ie today's quote by Steve Jobs) about educating the customer.

I don't pretend to have all the answers. One of my majors was in Speech Communications. There's a lot of validity to professionals using language to subjugate and/or exclude other members of society in conversation. The language doctors, lawyers, auto mechanics, you name it all have their own vocabulary which excludes the average person. This also adds "mystique" and credence to the information they state.

So when I say that Apple and other companies are contributing to the dumbing down of society - I say that without prejudice or judgment - but merely a statement of fact. And pretty incontrovertible at that.

 

[2 Replies]

Yes Jobs... it's a database of nearby wifi and cell towers.
Sure such data would be handy to connect quickly.... but you don't need to maintain a DATABASE with data from MONTHS, WEEKS or even DAYS ago.
Such data is not useful for quick connections to nearby cell towers or wifi APs.
Anything over a day old is not useful for the excuse Jobs has given.

That said, I'm not worried from a privacy standpoint as the data is on my phone and I'm not planning on giving anyone access to my phone.
Don't get me wrong,... I'm not being apologetic for this.
It's just that as a shareholder, Job's constant down-playing of THEIR engineering mistakes pisses me off.
Stop making excuses, stop trying to fix the issue with kludges, and just do it right to begin with.

 

[NebulaClash]

Great post. Just one thing (or maybe 2?)

I never said I didn't like what Apple has done or that the technology isn't great.

What I was stating is that Apple, along with other companies contribute to the dumbing down of society. And then put themselves in a position to speak down to you (ie today's quote by Steve Jobs) about educating the customer.

I don't pretend to have all the answers. One of my majors was in Speech Communications. There's a lot of validity to professionals using language to subjugate and/or exclude other members of society in conversation. The language doctors, lawyers, auto mechanics, you name it all have their own vocabulary which excludes the average person. This also adds "mystique" and credence to the information they state.

So when I say that Apple and other companies are contributing to the dumbing down of society - I say that without prejudice or judgment - but merely a statement of fact. And pretty incontrovertible at that.

OK, from a rhetoric perspective you have a good point. I was addressing the persepective of our tools, not the way we are spoken to.

I see the dumbing down of society too, and I hate it. As for what Steve said, well, he always did view all of us as either heros or losers, so this way of viewing people is not new with him

 

[-M-]

iPod Touch also included in this ???

I'm curious, shouldn't all the reports of this topic be stating something like "all iOS devices" in general, rather than just stating "iPhones/iPads" so as to include the iPod Touch devices in this?

 

[Vegasman]

+1

There is a button for this type of approval now

 

[aristotle]

This data is stored in a log file on the device.
The data is not information about the user or the device but rather temporal and location data about cell phone towers and wifi hotspots used to assist in locating your location in google maps app faster.
A bug exists where this file is not purge/rotated periodically like other log files and this file is backed up to iTunes.

I keep on hearing about "privacy" issues but these are facts about what hotspots/towers are online at a specific point in time and their locations relative to each other. None of this is personal and can be obtained by anyone with the proper equipment driving around in a trunk.

In a nutshell, it describes what network resources are available around you and not where you are. This data is not super accurate either but is only used in speeding up triangulation of GPS coordinates using cell towers and wifi hotspots.

 

[chaosbunny]

Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU iPhone OS 4_3_2 like Mac OS X; de-de) AppleWebKit/533.17.9 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/5.0.2 Mobile/8H7 Safari/6533.18.5)

This is a huge nothing issue and the press is making a big deal about it because they are all libs and they hate corporations. They will do anything to make them look evil and out to get everyone. They also like to down success in any way possible.

I have 2 iPhones, 2 iPods, 1 iPad and 2 MacBook Pros they can track until their hearts content if they want. I'd also like to track them myself so I'll keep those services turned on!

I'd like to note that i know that Apple does not gather the tracking information. I am just saying if they wanted to they can, I don't care.

Wow, this is so incredibly ignorant I can't even believe it. They can track me wherever I go, I don't care, they can grab my genitals at airports, I don't care, they can take all my money for bailouts of private banks, I don't care, they can abandon democracy, so what? I have a white iPhone, I'm the coolest!

Face it, corporations do evil/ unethical things all the time, denying this is nothing but ignorance.

But Steve says it's fine, he always speaks the truth since he's a rich billionaire ceo.