Steve Jobs on Lack of Firewire in MacBooks

[ateslik]

I would like to point out that Apple don't actually do any market research and ever since the new Macbook lineup was released, any mention of Apple's core products have been omitted from the 'Top Sellers' list on their site. In other words, we can't do our own 'market research' and see for ourselves which laptop is the best seller.

http://money.cnn.com/galleries/2008/fortune/0803/gallery.jobsqna.fortune/3.html - link citing Apple's use of market research.

Great link.

And on the very next slide:

"Our DNA is as a consumer company -- for that individual customer who's voting thumbs up or thumbs down. That's who we think about. And we think that our job is to take responsibility for the complete user experience. And if it's not up to par, it's our fault, plain and simply."

I hope its as true today as ever, lest darwinism meets their DNA.

 

[robanga]

That's all fine and well, except for two things.

#1: There are millions of firewire only camcorders already out there and there are firewire camcorders still for sale. Also, you neglect any argument concerning target disk mode which in and of itself makes firewire worth inclusion.

#2: On top of all of this, the cost of having a firewire port in a computer that starts @ $1299 is negligible. Last time I checked on laptops in that price range on Dell's website they virturally all had firewire, in addition to a card slot for upgrades additions. This was a bonehead decision on Apple's part, no way around it.

I was really only addressing the camera assertion. Not any other uses for FW, target disk mode included. I am sure lots of people have used that feature to maintain systems etc.

Bonehead or not, you can not argue with their success. OS X is the reason, sure their hardware has very decent aesthetics, but in the end its all about the operating system.

 

[rickag]

....
OS X is the reason, sure their hardware has very decent aesthetics, but in the end its all about the operating system.

I agree here totally, unconditionally.

If this weren't true, my family wouldn't own the G5 iSight iMac we have, and would be running some Dell or HP computer instead, as I am not a fan of AIO design at all. But I make consessions in order to run OS X.

I have no issue with my G4 1.25 Powerbook other than it is aging. But I don't need the current power of the new MacBook Pros, the current MacBooks are excellent exept for the firewire issue and I do prefer the 15" screen.

I'm willing to make consessions, many others aren't. And it seems for no good reason on Apple's part and the design decisions they make, both in desktops and laptops they artificially limit their target markets.

 

[Patcoola]

it's a shame that they took out the firewire and i really want the firewire back, it's not fair i have to by the mac book pro just to use my firewire devices on a laptop.

 

[SilentCrs]

I still can't personally get why people who have firewire-only cameras refuse to get the cheapest Macbook Pro instead.

Size? It's 1 inch wider and 1 pound heavier. Big deal.
Price? It's a small premium if you can afford a camera with firewire in the first place.

I think people are just griping because they were using the wrong tool for the job (a consumer laptop to try to do professional editing). If you're a consumer, you have a cheap video camera with USB in the first place.

 

[Eric S.]

I still can't personally get why people who have firewire-only cameras refuse to get the cheapest Macbook Pro instead.

Size? It's 1 inch wider and 1 pound heavier. Big deal.
Price? It's a small premium if you can afford a camera with firewire in the first place.

I think people are just griping because they were using the wrong tool for the job (a consumer laptop to try to do professional editing). If you're a consumer, you have a cheap video camera with USB in the first place.

Arguments that could have come straight from Apple marketing.

 

[bengal85]

See fire wire is a great thing but its kind of being over run by USB I mean everything you see is USB so I can see why Steve jobs would keep fire wire to a minimum in his machines

 

[Eric S.]

See fire wire is a great thing but its kind of being over run by USB I mean everything you see is USB so I can see why Steve jobs would keep fire wire to a minimum in his machines

Did you even read any of the 109 pages of this thread?

 

[CrackedButter]

I still can't personally get why people who have firewire-only cameras refuse to get the cheapest Macbook Pro instead.

Size? It's 1 inch wider and 1 pound heavier. Big deal.
Price? It's a small premium if you can afford a camera with firewire in the first place.

I think people are just griping because they were using the wrong tool for the job (a consumer laptop to try to do professional editing). If you're a consumer, you have a cheap video camera with USB in the first place.

OMG!

RE: Price. Dude, you're a sucker for the Apple Marketing and it seems you haven't bothered to read anything properly in this discussion. So I'm not going to repeat what has already been said. But are you really suggesting I *really* NEED to spend $1,999 on a laptop just for the Firewire when only 2 months ago I could have spent $1,099?

Regardless of whether I am a Professional or not? Everybody has budgets and some concept of value. These laptops are not value for money for me and many others here.

RE: Size, this means I need to get a bigger laptop bag or/and a bigger case. Which means spending more money (some larger bags do cost more) and the weight of the bag factors into people's travels. It's not just 1 pound heavier and 1 Inch wider now is it? Don't be so short sighted.

See fire wire is a great thing but its kind of being over run by USB I mean everything you see is USB so I can see why Steve jobs would keep fire wire to a minimum in his machines

Also for me personally I just bought a new 2.5" 500GB hard drive for Time Machine, bought a FW enclosure, daisy chained it a 320GB 2.5" drive secondary backup. I have 820GB's running off 1 FireWire cable.

It's simplicity like this that some users want from their laptops and we are being denied because of Apple's logic of what constitutes as being a Pro feature. What happened to creating the best product within its class? Some netbooks have more hardware options than the $1,299 MB, what a joke we all are if we're buying into this logic.

I can't even have that kind of setup if I bought the 13" $1,299 MB. The 2 USB ports are required to power the first drive because it takes 2 to send power to that enclosure and even then I can't daisy chain with USB so my 320GB drive can't be used.

Furthering that, if I did buy the 15" MBP, where does my other firewire devices go once I've bought the FW800/FW400 dongle? The 1 sole port is taken up by my backup setup. Some people have taken issue with Apple removing the secondary FW400 port on the 15" laptops. That port is so useful by itself and compared to another USB 2 port taking its place.

Some people don't want USB or Firewire hubs either. Talk about a contradiction in minimalism, an extra port isn't really going to hurt Apple here or there. But Apple design these light and wonderful space saving laptops only for us to then need to buy hubs and clutter our desks because Apple skimp on ports on what are very expensive abeit limited machines.

And that is what it all boils down to, Apple's lineup now being expensive and limited and people say it's okay either because they bought into the market, can live with it or don't know any better.

 

[craig1410]

Hi,
For what it's worth, my opinion is to either stick with the existing Macbook or buy the new white Macbook which is actually cheaper than the previous equivalent model. Nobody is forcing us to upgrade to the new aluminium Macbook and I don't think any of us should get upset at Apple for producing a machine that doesn't suit our needs.

For example, if a car maker was to remove the MP3 socket from a popular line of car for its next release, would every existing owner of the previous release of that car suddenly revolt against the car maker? No, they would either:

1. Stick with their existing car which is working just fine.
2. Buy a different brand or model of car which does have an MP3 socket.
3. Buy the new model and enjoy the other new features it does have and sacrifice the lack of MP3 socket.
4. As for 3, and replace their MP3 player with one that connects in another way (eg via the radio...)

Life's too short to complain about a product that doesn't suit your needs that you haven't yet bought. Just don't buy it! If the opposition is strong enough then the manufacturer will have to listen or will have to answer to the share holders.

Cheers,
Craig.

 

[apsterling]

Life's too short to complain about a product that doesn't suit your needs that you haven't yet bought. Just don't buy it! If the opposition is strong enough then the manufacturer will have to listen or will have to answer to the share holders.

Cheers,
Craig.

Agreed. Craig here gets the point.

 

[Eric S.]

So either stick with your existing machine or buy the new white Macbook which is actually cheaper than the previous equivalent model! Nobody is forcing you to upgrade to the new aluminium Macbook...

Ummm, that kool-aid must taste good.

 

[Tosser]

Agreed. Craig here gets the point.

Neither of you get "the point": This is not an "mp3 socket" as Craig worded it. People do actually have far more important needs than connecting their MP3 player. Read at least SOME of the thread to educate yourself a little on the subject at hand.

 

[craig1410]

Ummm, that kool-aid must taste good.

Dunno - never tried it!

To me the people drinking the kool-aid are the ones who get all upset because Apple have dared to produce a product that they can't bear not to buy, and yet which doesn't meet their needs for one reason or another.

People like me who are prepared *not to buy* an Apple product if it doesn't tick all the boxes are not the ones you should be worried about...

 

[Tosser]

Dunno - never tried it!

To me the people drinking the kool-aid are the ones who get all upset because Apple have dared to produce a product that they can't bear not to buy, and yet which doesn't meet their needs for one reason or another.

People like me who are prepared *not to buy* an Apple product if it doesn't tick all the boxes are not the ones you should be worried about...

Hmm, as have been suggested before: Read at least some of the pages in this thread.

 

[craig1410]

Neither of you get "the point": This is not an "mp3 socket" as Craig worded it. People do actually have far more important needs than connecting their MP3 player. Read at least SOME of the thread to educate yourself a little on the subject at hand.

It's just an analogy to provide some perspective which is something in short supply at times... I have read much of the thread and have made a few posts along the way. I can't quite believe it is still rumbling on to be honest.

As I said previously, I believe that Apple have removed the FW port on purpose to avoid leaching sales from the current MBP customers. The price point and pro-like design of the new MB is likely to attract traditional MBP customers which would be bad for business. The white MB is still there to catch most of the existing MB customers who want a new machine but can't live without FW or can't afford the new price point.

I'm not saying this strategy is correct and in all likelihood we will never know either way, but it's a safe bet that they didn't "forget" to add a FW port and didn't remove it to save money or for any technical reason. I believe it was removed for the business reason stated above. Let's wait and see if Apple do a U-turn on this in future before we decide if they were right or wrong.

That's it from me for now - as I said, life is too short and I've already spent more of it on this topic than I intended to.
Craig.

 

[CrackedButter]

So either stick with your existing machine or buy the new white Macbook which is actually cheaper than the previous equivalent model! Nobody is forcing you to upgrade to the new aluminium Macbook...

Sorry, but if a car maker was to remove the MP3 socket from a popular line of car for its next release, would every existing owner of the previous release of that car suddenly revolt against the car maker? No, they would either:

1. Stick with their existing car which is working just fine.
2. Buy a different brand or model of car which does have an MP3 socket.
3. Buy the new model and enjoy the other new features it does have and sacrifice the lack of MP3 socket.
4. As for 3, and replace their MP3 player with one that connects in another way (eg via the radio...)

Cheers,
Craig.

I'm talking about the practical day to day uses for my devices, does it look like I'm personally bothered by what Apple has done when I've just gone and bought a FW400 device? When everybody is saying its on its way out?

Making comparisons to a mp3 socket in a car is wrong as well. The primary operation of the car isn't hampered by the lack of an mp3 socket and you don't need a mp3 socket in a car, its a luxury feature. Firewire ports are not a luxury feature as Apple subscribe too.

Life's too short to complain about a product that doesn't suit your needs that you haven't yet bought. Just don't buy it! If the opposition is strong enough then the manufacturer will have to listen or will have to answer to the share holders.

I agree, I signed the petition and life will carrying on as before form me. I'm simply responding to people who've bought into a type of marketing or have pointed that USB takes the place of FW when there are features of FW that USB cannot do. Which was the point to my previous post.

My next machine btw is the 17" MBP so this lineup for the moment doesn't really bother me.

Agreed. Craig here gets the point.

Craig is right about life being too short though.

 

[Tosser]

It's just an analogy to provide some perspective which is something in short supply at times... I have read much of the thread and have made a few posts along the way. I can't quite believe it is still rumbling on to be honest.

I know it was an analogy. That was my point: You analogy is flawed, as this isn't about connecting some toy to a computer. This is about people's income directly and indirectly.

As I said previously, I believe that Apple have removed the FW port on purpose to avoid leaching sales from the current MBP customers. The price point and pro-like design of the new MB is likely to attract traditional MBP customers which would be bad for business. The white MB is still there to catch most of the existing MB customers who want a new machine but can't live without FW or can't afford the new price point.

The logic behind Apple's decision may seem to be relevant, but it doesn't change the practicality of anything.

I'm not saying this strategy is correct and in all likelihood we will never know either way, but it's a safe bet that they didn't "forget" to add a FW port and didn't remove it to save money or for any technical reason. I believe it was removed for the business reason stated above. Let's wait and see if Apple do a U-turn on this in future before we decide if they were right or wrong.

Are you kidding me? I don't live by the whims of a corporation and I'm fully capable of deduction myself, thank you very much. I do not need to wait and see, until I can tell if something is a bad for me and other people in the same situation, thank you very much.

That's it from me for now - as I said, life is too short and I've already spent more of it on this topic than I intended to.
Craig.

But you still managed to miss the crux of it all …

 

[craig1410]

.

 

[CrackedButter]

.

 

[Patcoola]

I still can't personally get why people who have firewire-only cameras refuse to get the cheapest Macbook Pro instead.

it's not just people how have dv cams, so people like me use firewire for hard drives or audio/recording equipment.

See fire wire is a great thing but its kind of being over run by USB I mean everything you see is USB so I can see why Steve jobs would keep fire wire to a minimum in his machines

USB sux it's slow and unreliable, it was designed for input devices and then branched in speed, but still has the same limitations.

the mac isn't really a mac without the firewire, also i don't like the idea that i have to spend more for the mac book pro just for the firewire.

 

[danny_w]

it's not just people how have dv cams, so people like me use firewire for hard drives or audio/recording equipment.



USB sux it's slow and unreliable, it was designed for input devices and then branched in speed, but still has the same limitations.

the mac isn't really a mac without the firewire, also i don't like the idea that i have to spend more for the mac book pro just for the firewire.

Especially for a firewire chip (Lucent/Agere) that doesn't work with a lot of the audio equipment out there.

 

[fedup flyer]

Size? It's 1 inch wider and 1 pound heavier. Big deal.

For those us who travel for a living, its a HUGE deal. It creates more crap for us to carry and the 15 incher is unweildy on a airline tray table.
If Apple would make a 13" MBP, I would buy that of course it has to have a FW port.

 

[CrackedButter]

Especially for a firewire chip (Lucent/Agere) that doesn't work with a lot of the audio equipment out there.

A couple of pages back, one poster pointed that there isn't anything wrong with the Agere chipset its the people coding for it. To summerise his point, if the Agere chipset can handle real time video without any issues then real time audio should be easier to handle since there is less information to push through the chipset. If that was the case, then the 3rd party is doing something wrong, not the chipset.

For those us who travel for a living, its a HUGE deal. It creates more crap for us to carry and the 15 incher is unweildy on a airline tray table.
If Apple would make a 13" MBP, I would buy that of course it has to have a FW port.

I remember the promo video from Apple when they released the 12"PB back in 2003. They had a photographer promoting its virtues because of its small size and it was ideal for him as a travel photographer.

 

[petermcphee]

Is there any indication that Apple will continue development of the Firewire, or is it done? Is there going to be another evolution of Firewire? 1600? If so, it seems like this will be increasingly a niche format.